Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Jacobus Erasm » Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:00:00



OK ! Here's my 2 cents worth !

I've been reading allot about LINUX and reports come in. Just look at some of
the reviews I have seen a few bad ones 1993-94 but since 95 almost all of the
reviews are pretty good.

Now here is where I come in. In general in the LINUX community including the
LINUX advocacy group there seems to be a general feeling that LINUX will not
catch up to Windows and that it will never surpass windows as the operating
system of choice for novice users. I used to beleive the same and is now
beginning to doubt my own wizeness in beleiving this.

Who is currently using LINUX ? Who is going to be the desision makers of the
future. They correspond quite heavilly. Yes I beleive that LINUX has a long way
to go to be usefull to (NOVICE users) but by all accounts (incuding press)
LINUX is going there very fast.

Every objection that somebody gives to LINUX is being handled very efficiently
! OK there is some stuff the LINUX community will not give an indifidual on the
other hand it's more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

Let's take some objections and I'd like to here responces on this:
Linux does not have commercial support - Changing fast.

Does not have a single corporation behind it - (Advantage/Disadvantage) nope. Any corporation even Microsoft ;( are allowed to make enancements to the product. Guess what you don't need a central corporation to back you. For that matter if one company does not give you the service you need go to another.

Does not have a standard GUI environment - CDE ? Pretty much. Also there is work going on in OpenDoc standards. etc. etc.

O yes just as a bonus ! Any other companny surpriced you ! Given you the thats smart or that a novell idea ! Ahh well LINUX does that to me all the time !

Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !

CU

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Massimo Campostrin » Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:00:00



> Now here is where I come in. In general in the LINUX community
> including the LINUX advocacy group there seems to be a general
> feeling that LINUX will not catch up to Windows and that it will
> never surpass windows as the operating system of choice for novice
> users. I used to beleive the same and is now beginning to doubt my
> own wizeness in beleiving this.

I would rather say that Linux does not *have* to surpass windows as
"The Desktop of No-Choice" (*) to be a great success.  If it does,
double win; if it does not, we still win.  Outside administration,
Linux will soon be "The Desktop" in academia.  Next step will be
corporate technical users.

(*) Since you usually get it preloaded, no matter what :-(

Quote:> Does not have a standard GUI environment - CDE ? Pretty much. Also
> there is work going on in OpenDoc standards. etc. etc.

CDE is not copylefted (and it uses Motif).  The best prospect for a
"standard GUI environment" for Linux is IMHO GNUstep.

Quote:> Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !

Not before wine32 (or whatever it will be called) emulates Win 16+32
well enough to run all non-MS software for MS Windows.  Given that
wine(16) is close... two years?  Still I don't think wine will ever
run the latest MS software for MS Windows (MS apps will break wine by
design).  Unless MS gives up its *hold on OS's and concentrates
on applications (native MS Office for Linux?  Flight Simulator?)

Not before big manufacturers preload Linux by default (a GPL'd system
is the *ideal* preload).  This requires a break from MS' preload
policy.

--
        Massimo Campostrini,
Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare, Sezione di Pisa.
WWW home page: http://www.veryComputer.com/~campo/

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Liang-Shing » Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:00:00




>Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !

I say next year this time!

>CU


OEM will ship Linux in box!

LSN

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Aquiles Luna-Rodrigu » Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:00:00


: Who is currently using LINUX ? Who is going to be the desision makers of the
: future. They correspond quite heavilly. Yes I beleive that LINUX has a long way
: to go to be usefull to (NOVICE users) but by all accounts (incuding press)
: LINUX is going there very fast.

Linux is the most used OS by Germany's Computer Science students.  Unix
is since long the * OS in Universities, the difference is that with
Linux  has spread to the *private* machines.

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Paul Presc » Sun, 01 Dec 1996 04:00:00




>Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !

Free software will never dominate on end-user desktops. Without the profit
motive, programmers will always make software that is amenable to
programmers. There may be a time in the future when all *programmers* use
free software primarily, but not end users.

Linux is new, so maybe it isn't yet apparent that it will never evolve into
something as usable as the MacOS or Windows, but I think that if you look
at Emacs, which is MUCH older, you will see Linux's eventual future. It will
be massively powerful, configurable, programmable etc., but will always be
about 3 years behind commercial software in ease-of-use.

It would be a waste of time to make Java as easy to use as Word for Windows,
or Linux as Windows 95, because 95% of the people who would be using Emacs
or Linux are programmers and the other 5% are hackers.

Java may help the situation, but I am not yet convinced. First,
Java presents a subset of the user interface features of a given platform.
Second, Java applications usually do not "feel" like native applications.
Third, it is not yet clear that Java is really appropriate for writing
large, CPU intensive applications. Every generation of user interface is
more CPU intensive than the last.

Anyhow, if Java evolves to the point where it is usable enough to replace
Windows 95 or the Mac, why would end-users run it on top of Linux??? JavaOS
seems like the obvious choice.

On the other hand, Java will certainly make life easier for programmers, who
*do* have good reasons for using Linux, if it lives up to its hype.

 Paul Prescod

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Anton Keyte » Mon, 02 Dec 1996 04:00:00





> >Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !

> I say next year this time!

This may be true, take a look at.

http://veda.synet.net/numan/berlin

Anton

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Joel Hard » Mon, 02 Dec 1996 04:00:00





>>Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !

>I say next year this time!

>>CU

>OEM will ship Linux in box!

>LSN

     That would be great, but it's not gonna happen.  Why?
1.  Micro$oft - There's no way that Emperor Gates will let any platform
become even half of what his is.
2.  NOBODY outside the programming community (except for a few Unix
freaks for big buisnesses) know about Linux (heck, not that many people
know about Unix anymore).
3.  Backwards compatibility - I'm willing to bet that over 95% of all
commercial apps sold are DOS/Windows3.1/Windows95 (or other 32 bit
stuff).  Nobody wants to go out and buy more apps (yes, there are good
freeware apps, but sometimes they're just not good enough for a
particular situation), they want to keep their old ones.  I know that
DOSemu and Wine (and a few others) try to emulate these platforms, but
they aren't 100% compatible (or stable).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joel Hardy (yes, my return address is fake so I won't get spammed |

|                                                                  |
|Visit my ugly homepage (with the first version of the sound       |
|programming FAQ at http://www.fiestanet.com/~www/deeng/start.htm) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Rene Grothma » Tue, 03 Dec 1996 04:00:00


Quote:>It would be a waste of time to make Java as easy to use as Word for
Windows,
>or Linux as Windows 95, because 95% of the people who would be using Emacs
>or Linux are programmers and the other 5% are hackers.

Exactly the attitude, which keeps Linux from evolving into a mature system.

The Linux user community is still dominated by people, who think vi is the
best editor there is. On requests of novice users, they answer that, if you
cannot read and understand a manual page with its technical and weird
language, you should not use Linux. They think every Linux user must be
ready to become a system administrator.

Can you imagine, how an average user feels, when he is forced to configure
X11, his printer or a PPP client? Those tasks can end in frustration.

I know that this is changing. I want Linux to come with installation
wizzards (yast is a good start) and with on-line tutorials available on a
key touch. I want programmers to use the toolboxes available and head for a
usable system. I never again want to edit a ressource file, seeking for
just a little documentation about it. I want you to change your attitude!

I had to say this,

Rene.

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by tak.. » Tue, 03 Dec 1996 04:00:00




: >Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !
:
: Free software will never dominate on end-user desktops. Without the profit
: motive, programmers will always make software that is amenable to
: programmers. There may be a time in the future when all *programmers* use
: free software primarily, but not end users.

Linux is GPL, Emacs is GPL.  But that doesn't mean all programs developed
under/for Linux have to be GPL.  Programmers won't have to starve if
Linux becomes the mainstream desktop OS.  Even Microsoft could survive
by porting their application software to Linux.

--
Stephen Takacs                      Linux!

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Paul Presc » Tue, 03 Dec 1996 04:00:00




>I know that this is changing. I want Linux to come with installation
>wizzards (yast is a good start) and with on-line tutorials available on a
>key touch. I want programmers to use the toolboxes available and head for a
>usable system. I never again want to edit a ressource file, seeking for
>just a little documentation about it. I want you to change your attitude!

Please read the thread and then respond again. I am not talking about my
attitude, per se, but the attitude of most free software programmes. More
importantly, I am talking about why that attitude *will not* change, and,
probably *culd not*.

 Paul Prescod

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Allan Peret » Tue, 03 Dec 1996 04:00:00



> The Linux user community is still dominated by people, who think vi is the
> best editor there is. On requests of novice users, they answer that, if you
> cannot read and understand a manual page with its technical and weird
> language, you should not use Linux. They think every Linux user must be
> ready to become a system administrator.

> Can you imagine, how an average user feels, when he is forced to configure
> X11, his printer or a PPP client? Those tasks can end in frustration.

Just a personal observation.  I may
have way too much time on my hands,
but I really enjoyed the experience of
learning how to set up X, printing,
PPP, and all the other necessities.
It was a labor, but a labor of love.
Surely I am not alone?  Is this not
one of the special appeals of Linux?

--
 Allan F. Peretz              |  Southern Illinois University,

 http://www.pobox.com/~pretzl |  1st Lieutenant, SC, IL ARNG

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Paul Presc » Wed, 04 Dec 1996 04:00:00






>: >Wonder why , Wonder when, Linux gonna be the next Desktop OS !
>:
>: Free software will never dominate on end-user desktops. Without the profit
>: motive, programmers will always make software that is amenable to
>: programmers. There may be a time in the future when all *programmers* use
>: free software primarily, but not end users.

>Linux is GPL, Emacs is GPL.  But that doesn't mean all programs developed
>under/for Linux have to be GPL.  Programmers won't have to starve if
>Linux becomes the mainstream desktop OS.  Even Microsoft could survive
>by porting their application software to Linux.

I'm not sure what you are responding to. I didn't mention the GPL at all.
I just said that GPLed software like Linux and Emacs will always be less
usable than commercial software because it is almost always marketroids
that shove user interface convention-connformance down programmer's
throats. Otherwise, most programmers would rather do an innovative,
unique UI, or none at all.

 Paul Prescod

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by A Shelt » Wed, 04 Dec 1996 04:00:00



>>It would be a waste of time to make Java as easy to use as Word for
>Windows,
>>or Linux as Windows 95, because 95% of the people who would be using Emacs
>>or Linux are programmers and the other 5% are hackers.
>Exactly the attitude, which keeps Linux from evolving into a mature system.

Linux follows the unix tradition of the kernel not making decisions
for users. Thus no matter how mature the linux kernel gets these problems
will still remain.

On the other hand Caldera and Red-Hat very much want to provide user
friendly installations of linux (one of the reasons I'm using debian).

Quote:>The Linux user community is still dominated by people, who think vi is the
>best editor there is. On requests of novice users, they answer that, if you
>cannot read and understand a manual page with its technical and weird
>language, you should not use Linux. They think every Linux user must be
>ready to become a system administrator.

Linux has to start with programmers...no matter how you feel they are
the people who build it. The LDP and the commercial people have a
completely different aim of course. Neither makes up the whole that
is linux.

Every Linux user does have to be an administrator...but once the system
is working it has a stubborn tendency to remain working. Additionally
once you solve a problem not only that problem, but many other problems,
move towards solution because, although ugly, there is a strong under
-lying design to unix.

Quote:>Can you imagine, how an average user feels, when he is forced to configure
>X11, his printer or a PPP client? Those tasks can end in frustration.

Yep...Those are generally the focus of most problems. It is a pity
there is not a program to automate it all...but it may be that linux
had to stabilize first before people like Caldera could move in.

No point in building on shifting foundations after all..

Quote:>I know that this is changing. I want Linux to come with installation
>wizzards (yast is a good start) and with on-line tutorials available on a

I think you'll find that you should write that wizards(c).

Quote:>key touch. I want programmers to use the toolboxes available and head for a
>usable system. I never again want to edit a ressource file, seeking for
>just a little documentation about it. I want you to change your attitude!

Linux will be what people want it to be....save for the inner workings
of the kernel. If enough people agree with you Caldera will slap themselves
on the foreheads and say "hey, why don't we make it user friendly!" and
expect money in return for their efforts. And if they don't someone else
will.

On the other hand it is up to people who think this important to support
such efforts... I take it you are running CND and would happily pay
license or shareware on any administrative tool that was available?

Quote:>I had to say this,

ASCII is cheap...

--
  It's not a computer, it's a 50MHz Linux Prayer Wheel..

  GCS(2.1)-d+H+sw+v-C++UL+>L+++E-N++WV--R++tv-b+D++e+fr*y?

 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Marcus Meissn » Wed, 04 Dec 1996 04:00:00




>>It would be a waste of time to make Java as easy to use as Word for
>Windows,
>>or Linux as Windows 95, because 95% of the people who would be using Emacs
>>or Linux are programmers and the other 5% are hackers.

>Exactly the attitude, which keeps Linux from evolving into a mature system.

Linux doesn't evolve by itself. Linux evolution depends on the developers.

Quote:>The Linux user community is still dominated by people, who think vi is the
>best editor there is. On requests of novice users, they answer that, if you
>cannot read and understand a manual page with its technical and weird
>language, you should not use Linux. They think every Linux user must be
>ready to become a system administrator.

>Can you imagine, how an average user feels, when he is forced to configure
>X11, his printer or a PPP client? Those tasks can end in frustration.

>I know that this is changing. I want Linux to come with installation
>wizzards (yast is a good start) and with on-line tutorials available on a
>key touch. I want programmers to use the toolboxes available and head for a
>usable system. I never again want to edit a ressource file, seeking for
>just a little documentation about it. I want you to change your attitude!

>I had to say this,

And I have to say:

        "Just Do It" [tm Nike[r]]

Linux gives you the freedom to go ahead and create your own distribution,
with all the features you wish to have. With all the userfriendliness and
whatever. Just assemble a team (you will not be able to do this alone)
and do it. _NOBODY_ is stopping you. It is perfectly legal [tm MMF].

BTW: That is the Linux way of doing things.

The Linux developers do not force you to do things. You are free to choose.

Quote:>Rene.

Marcus
--
    http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/msmeissn/index.html
 
 
 

Linux vs Windows vs DOS future.

Post by Christopher Paul Beami » Wed, 04 Dec 1996 04:00:00




> > The Linux user community is still dominated by people, who think vi is the
> > best editor there is. On requests of novice users, they answer that, if you
> > cannot read and understand a manual page with its technical and weird
> > language, you should not use Linux. They think every Linux user must be
> > ready to become a system administrator.

> > Can you imagine, how an average user feels, when he is forced to configure
> > X11, his printer or a PPP client? Those tasks can end in frustration.

> Just a personal observation.  I may
> have way too much time on my hands,
> but I really enjoyed the experience of
> learning how to set up X, printing,
> PPP, and all the other necessities.
> It was a labor, but a labor of love.
> Surely I am not alone?  Is this not
> one of the special appeals of Linux?

> --
>  Allan F. Peretz              |  Southern Illinois University,

>  http://www.pobox.com/~pretzl |  1st Lieutenant, SC, IL ARNG

I'm sure you're not alone and I can totally
respect your viewpoint. I admit I've even
had a certain amount of fun setting up various
thing on my linux box. However, I think it
would be advantageous to all of us to have
a large as possible user base. This would help
spur linux and linux related development even
faster than it already is. The problem is that
for most people, myself at least partially included,
we want to use our computer to help us solve
problems which are completely unrelated to
programming. Setting up our computer systems is
therefore part of the overhead cost of solving
a problem, not a labor of love. I myself have
wasted many many hours working on my linux box
when truthfully I would have rather been working
on a problem for which I will get paid (while
using my already perfectly configured linux box!)

I'm hoping for more support to ease the tasks of
system administration and setup.

Just my $0.02.

Chris Beamis