Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Sheldon Gartn » Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:00:00










>>>>Why are Apple refusing to give Be the information they need to get
>>BeOS
>>>>running on G3 motherboards?

>>>Since the LinuxPPC people can get their OS running on Apple hardware
>>>without anybody holding their hands, then so could Be if they were
>>truly
>>>interested.

>>Sure, Be could hack their way onto Apple's machines, but that's a bit
>>more
>>expensive(read time and resource consuming) than buying the required
>>information from Apple....for unlike Linux, the BeOS is almost entirely
>>supported by a single company.    There's also the legal complications
>>which exist for Be that don't for Linux....afterall, it's a lot easier
>>for Apple to sue Be than suing the numerous coders for Linux.  Not
>>saying they would, but it's something the folks at Be have to think
>>about.    Then there's the m*stand....should Be just work around
>>Apple's reticence or should Be
>>refuse to knuckle under and make a stand??

>>>As I understand it, they see a bigger return if they embrace
>>>Intel, so that's what they're doing.

>>Certainly Be does see a big market up in the Intel area, but that
>>wouldn't force them to drop PPC support...and I doubt anyone could argue
>>that Apple's non-cooperation is anything but discouraging...

>Oh, cut me some slack... Think that OF isn't documented, think again.
>Hell, they had Linux booting on iMac's a few weeks after their release.
>If a handful of hackers could port LinuxPPC, Be could if it wanted to.

Exactly.

Let's face it, it's inevitable that Apple is going to face the music
and embrace Linux *, not just "allowing" it on its hardware.

I've not figured out how or when, but I do know the _why_.

It's only a matter of time before either a Linux hardware or software
company is big enough or sly enough to buy/merge Apple. For a number
of different reasons. Having Apple's GUI/multimedia tech accessible
would do wonders for the Linux community, especially the side that
expects to make money. 8-)

And there is no doubt that Apple is "in play" as the investors say.
I mean, this is a company that doesn't even have an official CEO! (or
whatever position(s) that Job is currently filling.) I suppose the big
reason for that is the bad reputation Apple's corporate culture has.
That's why Apple may 'die" yet. (When I say "die," I mean no longer in
both hardware and software. AKA "Apple As We Know It.")

All the potential suiters are much more business oriented than Apple
is. On paper, a Dell (Linux, Wintel business stuff)/Apple (for home
Internet appliances) combo would be great, but it just wouldn't work
out. (Given Gateway's interest in Amiga, maybe Gateway/Apple?)

Apple is already working with Unix, so it would make perfect sense to
use Linux exclusively (Mac/Linux duel boot?). It would help Apple make
huge inroads into business and give it no end of good PR.

Unfortunately, so would have licensing the MacOS ten years ago.

That's why it's likely and outside force is going to _make_ Apple
do it. Apple has a HUGE potential in the home area network field. The
iMac proves that. And with specific use devices, it doesn't matter so
much that something isn't Wintel. Just look at what's happening with
Corel and its Linux boxen. (They rilly look like the future of the PC
to me--they could serve as a Netgateways for the overall networked
home.)

-l

---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain  

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Con Tik » Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:00:00


Quote:> Having Apple's GUI/multimedia tech accessible
> would do wonders for the Linux community, especially the side that
> expects to make money. 8-)

   I don't think so, after my experience with Mac Os's gui.

   The multimedia would help.

 thx.

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Milo MkLin » Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:00:00











>>>>>Why are Apple refusing to give Be the information they need to get
>>>BeOS
>>>>>running on G3 motherboards?

>>>>Since the LinuxPPC people can get their OS running on Apple hardware
>>>>without anybody holding their hands, then so could Be if they were
>>>truly
>>>>interested.

>>>Sure, Be could hack their way onto Apple's machines, but that's a bit
>>>more
>>>expensive(read time and resource consuming) than buying the required
>>>information from Apple....for unlike Linux, the BeOS is almost entirely
>>>supported by a single company.    There's also the legal complications
>>>which exist for Be that don't for Linux....afterall, it's a lot easier
>>>for Apple to sue Be than suing the numerous coders for Linux.  Not
>>>saying they would, but it's something the folks at Be have to think
>>>about.    Then there's the m*stand....should Be just work around
>>>Apple's reticence or should Be
>>>refuse to knuckle under and make a stand??

>>>>As I understand it, they see a bigger return if they embrace
>>>>Intel, so that's what they're doing.

>>>Certainly Be does see a big market up in the Intel area, but that
>>>wouldn't force them to drop PPC support...and I doubt anyone could argue
>>>that Apple's non-cooperation is anything but discouraging...

>>Oh, cut me some slack... Think that OF isn't documented, think again.
>>Hell, they had Linux booting on iMac's a few weeks after their release.
>>If a handful of hackers could port LinuxPPC, Be could if it wanted to.

>Exactly.

>Let's face it, it's inevitable that Apple is going to face the music
>and embrace Linux *, not just "allowing" it on its hardware.

Apple granted your wish years ago.    They created the MkLinux
project.

Quote:>I've not figured out how or when, but I do know the _why_.

The when is in the past.

Quote:>It's only a matter of time before either a Linux hardware or software
>company is big enough or sly enough to buy/merge Apple. For a number
>of different reasons. Having Apple's GUI/multimedia tech accessible
>would do wonders for the Linux community, especially the side that
>expects to make money. 8-)

I doubt Linux companies have that kind of cash, but I can't say I
dislike the idea.  :D

Quote:>And there is no doubt that Apple is "in play" as the investors say.
>I mean, this is a company that doesn't even have an official CEO! (or
>whatever position(s) that Job is currently filling.) I suppose the big
>reason for that is the bad reputation Apple's corporate culture has.
>That's why Apple may 'die" yet. (When I say "die," I mean no longer in
>both hardware and software. AKA "Apple As We Know It.")

Sure, the earth may be hit by a comet, and we could all die.  :D

Quote:>All the potential suiters are much more business oriented than Apple
>is. On paper, a Dell (Linux, Wintel business stuff)/Apple (for home
>Internet appliances) combo would be great, but it just wouldn't work
>out. (Given Gateway's interest in Amiga, maybe Gateway/Apple?)

I think you're basing your opinions on the way Apple USED to be run.

Quote:>Apple is already working with Unix, so it would make perfect sense to
>use Linux exclusively (Mac/Linux duel boot?). It would help Apple make
>huge inroads into business and give it no end of good PR.

I agree, but let's make it a dual boot.   No need to fight any duels
betwin Mac and Linux.  :D

Quote:>Unfortunately, so would have licensing the MacOS ten years ago.

Licensing the Mac OS would have just made it another variety of
Windows, IMHO.   Not having to deal with the multitude of hardware
types in the PC world has been one of the Mac's advantages.

Quote:>That's why it's likely and outside force is going to _make_ Apple
>do it. Apple has a HUGE potential in the home area network field. The
>iMac proves that. And with specific use devices, it doesn't matter so
>much that something isn't Wintel. Just look at what's happening with
>Corel and its Linux boxen. (They rilly look like the future of the PC
>to me--they could serve as a Netgateways for the overall networked
>home.)

Much of what you say is true.    But the outside force has already
been applied by the Free Software movement years ago, and Apple has
already complied, also years ago.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:>-l

>---
>ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
>the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain  

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Milo MkLin » Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:00:00


On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:06:35 +1300, Con Tiki


>> Having Apple's GUI/multimedia tech accessible
>> would do wonders for the Linux community, especially the side that
>> expects to make money. 8-)

>   I don't think so, after my experience with Mac Os's gui.

Could you elaborate?
Quote:>   The multimedia would help.
> thx.

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Anthony D. Tribel » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00



: >Apple is already working with Unix, so it would make perfect sense to
: >use Linux exclusively (Mac/Linux duel boot?). It would help Apple make
: >huge inroads into business and give it no end of good PR.

NextStep, the genesis of Rhapsody/MacOS X, already has an excellent
reputation with the suits in the Fortune 500 companies. NextStep has
already been used by large corporations for critical applications for many
years.

: I agree, but let's make it a dual boot.   No need to fight any duels
: betwin Mac and Linux.  :D

There is no need to dual boot because Rhapsody/MacOS X puts the Mac GUI on
top of BSD Unix. The goal is to run Unix apps and MacOS apps side by side
in the same environment. If the user chooses to of course, most users
won't even know they have a Unix under the hood.

What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
replaced with Linux.

Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by George Maren » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00






>: >Apple is already working with Unix, so it would make perfect sense to
>: >use Linux exclusively (Mac/Linux duel boot?). It would help Apple make
>: >huge inroads into business and give it no end of good PR.

>NextStep has already been used by large corporations for critical applications
>for many years.

And it has about as much future as OS/2 does -- can you say niche
applications only need apply?
 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Anthony D. Tribel » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00





: >: >Apple is already working with Unix, so it would make perfect sense to
: >: >use Linux exclusively (Mac/Linux duel boot?). It would help Apple make
: >: >huge inroads into business and give it no end of good PR.
: >
: >NextStep has already been used by large corporations for critical applications
: >for many years.
:
: And it has about as much future as OS/2 does -- can you say niche
: applications only need apply?

Silly comparison. Business is Win32 or Unix, OS/2 runs neither (well not
enough of either). NextStep is Unix. It's still leading Linux in that
high-end corporate environment. NextStep/Rhapsody/MacOS X is still much
farther along than Linux in terms of a viable consumer oriented GUI for
Unix. Open Source applications and tools are recompiled for
NextStep/Rhapsody/MacOS X every day. Again, should Apple replace BSD Unix
with Linux?

Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Milo MkLin » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00






>: >Apple is already working with Unix, so it would make perfect sense to
>: >use Linux exclusively (Mac/Linux duel boot?). It would help Apple make
>: >huge inroads into business and give it no end of good PR.

>NextStep, the genesis of Rhapsody/MacOS X, already has an excellent
>reputation with the suits in the Fortune 500 companies. NextStep has
>already been used by large corporations for critical applications for many
>years.

>: I agree, but let's make it a dual boot.   No need to fight any duels
>: betwin Mac and Linux.  :D

>There is no need to dual boot because Rhapsody/MacOS X puts the Mac GUI on
>top of BSD Unix. The goal is to run Unix apps and MacOS apps side by side
>in the same environment. If the user chooses to of course, most users
>won't even know they have a Unix under the hood.

There *IS* a need to dual boot.    The idea is not only to get the
benefits of Unix, it is also to get the benefits of FREE software.
Free means more than price.   It means FREE, OPEN SOURCE CODE.  No
Apple OS, or any other commercial OS, can give that benefit, no matter
how good it is.

Quote:>What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
>replaced with Linux.

Find one who says that and ask him.   I never suggested that Linux
should replace BSD, or anything else for that matter.   I'm for a dual
boot system of Linux and anything else you want to boot.  :D

- Show quoted text -

>Tony
>--
>------------------
>Tony Tribelli


 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Earl Malmros » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00



>What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
>replaced with Linux.

Will every user be given the source code to the BSD in OS X and be able to
freely modify it and distribute those changes?
 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Anthony D. Tribel » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00



: >There is no need to dual boot because Rhapsody/MacOS X puts the Mac GUI on
: >top of BSD Unix. The goal is to run Unix apps and MacOS apps side by side
: >in the same environment. If the user chooses to of course, most users
: >won't even know they have a Unix under the hood.
:
: There *IS* a need to dual boot.    The idea is not only to get the
: benefits of Unix, it is also to get the benefits of FREE software.
: Free means more than price.   It means FREE, OPEN SOURCE CODE.  No
: Apple OS, or any other commercial OS, can give that benefit, no matter
: how good it is.

If the Open Source apps compile for both Rhapsody/BSD and Linux, few users
will care what OS is underneath.

Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Anthony D. Tribel » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00



: >What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
: >replaced with Linux.
:
: Will every user be given the source code to the BSD in OS X and be able to
: freely modify it and distribute those changes?

No, and how many users will care? An how many developers will get cold
feet from possible QA nightmares? I think the BSD route will better serve
Apple in the shrink wrapped software world. The handful who want to tweak
their OS will probably be happier with pure Linux/X and none of that MacOS
GUI stuff.

Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Yves R. Crevecoeu » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00





> : >What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
> : >replaced with Linux.
> :
> : Will every user be given the source code to the BSD in OS X and be able to
> : freely modify it and distribute those changes?

> No, and how many users will care? An how many developers will get cold
> feet from possible QA nightmares? I think the BSD route will better serve
> Apple in the shrink wrapped software world. The handful who want to tweak
> their OS will probably be happier with pure Linux/X and none of that MacOS
> GUI stuff.

Apple should just port OpenStep to Linux and just sell that!

With all the brains out there working on Linux, Apple would be guaranteed
that they would not get left behind in the dust again like they did with the
MacOS!

When you think about it, Apple got into trouble with the MacOS because the it
was very difficult to make the ToolBox re-entrant so what do they do, they
buy NeXT which is re-entrant but does not support SMP and is very difficult
to make it support SMP, so what will they do now?

I say get off their butts and start writing a brand new OS or get an
exclusive license for the BeOS on PPC!

This continuous patching and glueing of old software and newer software that
were never meant to work together has got to stop!  Bloat Ware Sucks!

ciao,
YC

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Aaron Smi » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00




> >What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
> >replaced with Linux.

> Will every user be given the source code to the BSD in OS X and be able to
> freely modify it and distribute those changes?

Well, the latest word out on the street is that the BSD layer is almost
entirely taken from NetBSD (including all the standard *nix utilities).

There have also been rumblings since last spring that several
universities will be granted source for the core OS.

The upper layers (Carbon API's, OpenStep, GUI & tools) will obviously
remain proprietary.

If you want to hammer on Apple for not GPLing the whole damn OS, then
they are never going to satisfy you. However, there seems to be no good
reason to replace the BSD layer with a Linux layer.

What would be much smarter would be to port the upper layers
(OPENSTEP++, GUI, Imaging Model, Development environment) to Linux. This
would relieve them of the burden of supporting Intel hardware directly
(let the linux community futz with it) yet still give their OPENSTEP++
developers access to Intel-Linux based boxes.

--
------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Smith
Dunkerque, France
------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company

Post by Douglas Wagn » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00


Hello Yves:
You said,

Quote:>When you think about it, Apple got into trouble with the MacOS because the it
>was very difficult to make the ToolBox re-entrant so what do they do, they
>buy NeXT which is re-entrant but does not support SMP and is very difficult
>to make it support SMP, so what will they do now?

>I say get off their butts and start writing a brand new OS or get an
>exclusive license for the BeOS on PPC!

>This continuous patching and glueing of old software and newer software that
>were never meant to work together has got to stop!  Bloat Ware Sucks!

This is unusually interesting (and chilling). Would you care to expand on
your remarks about MacOS X and the significance of "re-entrant" software
and an OS that doesn't support SMP?

I've been waiting for a solid OS from Apple for years. I waited for
Copland and now I'm waiting for MacOS X. My experience with Apple tells me
I will probably be disappointed, in some subtle way, again. (That's why
Linux and the OSS community is looking increasingly attractive to me).

Have a good day: Douglas Wagner

 
 
 

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