Very Computer

Okay, I admit it.  I'm a dual booter.  Actually, use removable hard
drive bays to swap disks out.

I've fallen in love with Linux.  Its great, all that power for free,
developed by people who love doing it.  Many of the complaints people
used to have are now things of the past.  Hardware support - RH 7.1
supports all my hardware right out of the box.  Installation - I had
more problems installing windows.  Appearance - make it look however
you want.  Plus, as a networking geek I get powerful world class
servers to play with, like sendmail and apache.  More programming
languages than you can shake a stick at.

There are some places I could see it improving.  One is applications.
Distibuting apps as source is not acceptable for most users.  I
figured it out, but don't understand why the authors couldn't compile
it ahead of time.  RPMs work, but chasing down dependencies is a
nightmare for a new user.  For instance, I wanted to install Star
Office 6.  THe documentation said I needed a specific version of
glibc.  I had to go out on the usenet and find an answer.  It was some
obscure command that I entered to get the version.  If I had to do it
again, I'd need to search again.  Not impossible, but a pain.

I hear apt-get is awesome and a good solution, but its Debian only.
Deb intimidates me.  I have enough problems with the newbie friendly
Red Hat.

Another that affect me personally is the lack of certain GUI apps.
FOr instance, I can't get X-CD-Roast to create CDs.  Locks up X.  I
know its alpha code, so I'll just have to wait for it to get better or
something else to come along.

Another is games.  I read that a lot of them are supported by WINE and
tried installing that.  The config file is a nightmare!

However, I do realize somethign about open source.  It does not move
at the same speed as commercial software.  I'm sure these problems
will be fixed, and can't wait until I can give up MS for good.  Until
then, I'll have to keep that windows disk around.

In short, what I'd love to see is

1- A centralized source to see what is installed, what version it is,
and what it depends on in an easy to view manner.

2- A app that handles MP3 burning.  Rip em, encode em, burn them in
mp3 or audio format.

3- A way to make WINE configuration a little easier.  I'm sure that
will come about when it hits version 1.0

If there's a way to do this stuff now, please let me know.  Its about
all that is holding me back from dumping MS at home for all but
experimental use.

I am not very much at home on rpm-based systems. Have you tried looking at
Ximian Red Carpet? I believe this is one of the better package managers out
there.

Quote:> 2- A app that handles MP3 burning.  Rip em, encode em, burn them in mp3 or
> audio format.

Hmmm. If you want to do this as one process, you are stuck with the
commandline. Just use your favourite encoder and use mkisofs and cdrecord to
burn. If you want to do it the GUI way, hava look at gcombust, a Gnome frontend
to cdrecord.

Quote:> 3- A way to make WINE configuration a little easier.  I'm sure that will come
> about when it hits version 1.0

There is a tool for that. On my machine it is called winesetup. I believe it
might be called winesetuptk as well.

Quote:> If there's a way to do this stuff now, please let me know.  Its about all that
> is holding me back from dumping MS at home for all but experimental use.

Glad to oblige.

Mart
--
A dirty mind is a joy forever
Its sleaziness will never cease

If rpm sorted out dependencies automatically like apt-get, my life would
be easier. I quite understand.

Quote:> I hear apt-get is awesome and a good solution, but its Debian only.
> Deb intimidates me.  I have enough problems with the newbie friendly
> Red Hat.

Well, I have not got on with Debian install because it does not like my
graphics card, but I have only heard good things about it, so give it a
try. Maybe you could start with Mandrake or Redhat and then try Debian
once you are used to the Linux way of doing stuff.

Quote:> Another that affect me personally is the lack of certain GUI apps.
> FOr instance, I can't get X-CD-Roast to create CDs.  Locks up X.  I
> know its alpha code, so I'll just have to wait for it to get better or
> something else to come along.

Remember that you can restart X by killing the process, and then restart
it without the need for a reboot as in windows.

Quote:> Another is games.  I read that a lot of them are supported by WINE and
> tried installing that.  The config file is a nightmare!

Have a look at this: http://www.veryComputer.com/*.com/ I discovered it the other
day when someone was asking me about wine support for games. I was under
the impression that there was a big no no about directX, but it seems that
support is actually not that bad with many top games being able to be run.
When I have the time I'm gonna download it quicker than you can say "I am
the TAK king".

Quote:> However, I do realize somethign about open source.  It does not move
> at the same speed as commercial software.  I'm sure these problems
> will be fixed, and can't wait until I can give up MS for good.  Until
> then, I'll have to keep that windows disk around.

Yes, the pace of development is _amazing_. 6 months seems like a lifetime.

Quote:> 1- A centralized source to see what is installed, what version it is,
> and what it depends on in an easy to view manner.

Debian does have this, so if you can get it installed then give it a go.

--------snip-------------------------

Quote:>There are some places I could see it improving.  One is applications.
>Distibuting apps as source is not acceptable for most users.  I
>figured it out, but don't understand why the authors couldn't compile
>it ahead of time.  RPMs work, but chasing down dependencies is a
>nightmare for a new user.  For instance, I wanted to install Star
>Office 6.  THe documentation said I needed a specific version of
>glibc.  I had to go out on the usenet and find an answer.  It was some
>obscure command that I entered to get the version.  If I had to do it
>again, I'd need to search again.  Not impossible, but a pain.

I agree wholeheartly. Updating KDE on Mandrake 8.0 was a real pain.
You need this for this, this needs requires this, man it was almost
enough to make me go back to Windows. Ok, not really.

Quote:>I hear apt-get is awesome and a good solution, but its Debian only.
>Deb intimidates me.  I have enough problems with the newbie friendly
>Red Hat.

Tried Deb, Maybe it is just me, I didn't see anything so great about
it. I saw nothing bad about it, but I was kind of waiting to get blown
away.

Quote:>Another that affect me personally is the lack of certain GUI apps.
>FOr instance, I can't get X-CD-Roast to create CDs.  Locks up X.  I
>know its alpha code, so I'll just have to wait for it to get better or
>something else to come along.

Really? I have been using X-CD-Roast for awhile with no problems. But
for MP3's I prefer using MusicMatch JukeBox. It's a Windows program
wrapped up in Wine to run on Linux and it works very well.

Quote:>Another is games.  I read that a lot of them are supported by WINE and
>tried installing that.  The config file is a nightmare!

Can't say anything there, I really suck on games. My kids kill me on
them all of the time.

Quote:>However, I do realize somethign about open source.  It does not move
>at the same speed as commercial software.  I'm sure these problems
>will be fixed, and can't wait until I can give up MS for good.  Until
>then, I'll have to keep that windows disk around.

I use Win4Lin since I am a Quicken-holic.  I also have found nothing
in Linux comparable to Agent for newsgroups  and TurboTax.  Hopefully
KMyMoney proves to be a Quicken killer. Neither Pan or Knode or
anything I have found can match Agent. I am hoping that something will
eventually come along.

Quote:>Okay, I admit it.  I'm a dual booter.  Actually, use removable hard
>drive bays to swap disks out.

>I've fallen in love with Linux.  Its great, all that power for free,
>developed by people who love doing it.  Many of the complaints people
>used to have are now things of the past.  Hardware support - RH 7.1
>supports all my hardware right out of the box.  Installation - I had
>more problems installing windows.  Appearance - make it look however
>you want.  Plus, as a networking geek I get powerful world class
>servers to play with, like sendmail and apache.  More programming
>languages than you can shake a stick at.

>There are some places I could see it improving.  One is applications.
>Distibuting apps as source is not acceptable for most users.  I
>figured it out, but don't understand why the authors couldn't compile
>it ahead of time.  RPMs work, but chasing down dependencies is a
>nightmare for a new user.  For instance, I wanted to install Star
>Office 6.  THe documentation said I needed a specific version of
>glibc.  I had to go out on the usenet and find an answer.  It was some
>obscure command that I entered to get the version.  If I had to do it
>again, I'd need to search again.  Not impossible, but a pain.

>I hear apt-get is awesome and a good solution, but its Debian only.
>Deb intimidates me.  I have enough problems with the newbie friendly
>Red Hat.

Funny.  Debian does something different to me.

Quote:>Another that affect me personally is the lack of certain GUI apps.
>FOr instance, I can't get X-CD-Roast to create CDs.  Locks up X.  I
>know its alpha code, so I'll just have to wait for it to get better or
>something else to come along.

>Another is games.  I read that a lot of them are supported by WINE and
>tried installing that.  The config file is a nightmare!

>However, I do realize somethign about open source.  It does not move
>at the same speed as commercial software.  I'm sure these problems
>will be fixed, and can't wait until I can give up MS for good.  Until
>then, I'll have to keep that windows disk around.

>In short, what I'd love to see is

>1- A centralized source to see what is installed, what version it is,
>and what it depends on in an easy to view manner.

>2- A app that handles MP3 burning.  Rip em, encode em, burn them in
>mp3 or audio format.

>3- A way to make WINE configuration a little easier.  I'm sure that
>will come about when it hits version 1.0

>If there's a way to do this stuff now, please let me know.  Its about
>all that is holding me back from dumping MS at home for all but
>experimental use.

Look.  It's either Suse 7.3 or Debian.

--

Charlie

On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:59:30 +0000,

Debian is such a good OS, it makes your body tingle.

That's why the next version will be called "Woody"

--

Charlie

<GOTCHA WINTROLL>

Jim

FWIW, the Brazilian Linux Users' Group recently hacked apt to work
with RPMs.  Since the LSB is now officially RPM-based, you may see
the best of both worlds showing up in the next year.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

People who love developing software are to be found all over the
place, that they're also involved in Linux is great too.   About the
term 'free'.   It isn't really, just very very cheap.  Someone
somewhere must pay for net-connection or the cd, if that isnt you then
it'll look free allright.  I suspect I'm fussing about semantics but
people say 'free' all too quickly.   It's a lot less costly to obtain
than other commercially available OSes, and very scalable for old
hardware too.  It's as near to 'free' as anything on a PC is likely to
get anyway, in that the OS itself isnt subject to a charge.

Quote:> Plus, as a networking geek I get powerful world class
> servers to play with, like sendmail and apache.

That'll be the Unix in it.   If you dont want a network (what?  in
this day and age?) it's strange to 'administer' your own desktop, but
it's a worthy addition nevertheless.

Quote:> More programming languages than you can shake a stick at.

Actually, if you went on a download hunt you could quickly get free
windows compilers for c, c++, pascal, java, asm and just about any
other language.  There is no less opportunity there, but the compilers
are never in a windows cd when you install.   Getting 4000 apps on a
big Debian distribution for less than the price of Windows XP is
pretty amazing.

Quote:> There are some places I could see it improving.  One is applications.
> Distibuting apps as source is not acceptable for most users.

I havent experimented enough (I'm new to it) as yet, but the idea that
you have to check dependancies is irritating.  That's the price of a
fast moving many-developers OS though I suppose.    Windows is easier
because it stays the same for years on end (not counting cosmetic
changes).    Win95 - ME all works pretty much the same, 2000 & XP are
about the same.   It's closed and it's path is determined by a smaller
singular group - it's bound to be easier to devise a few easy methods
of installation and use them universally.   That's part of their
gameplan and it's fine in that context.

If you use Linux you should probably just accept difficulties here and
there.   To be honest, with the volume of apps on a big distribution
many users probably won't be installing from external sources as often
as a windows user does - and a couple of years later you could take
the easy way out and just pick up the latest big distribution!!

Quote:> Another that affect me personally is the lack of certain GUI apps.

It's generally easier to program non-gui apps, especially if your
target audience is used to using them.   Programming GUI apps using a
RAD system can take some of the GUI API out of the equation.  I think
there are tools like Kdevelop/qt, glade and now Kylix that go in that
direction.    You could even port you favourate CLI app to a GUI
version by using the source code!

Quote:> Another is games.  I read that a lot of them are supported by WINE and
> tried installing that.  The config file is a nightmare!

Despite the progress made I gather that it's probably safer to stick
with your windows hdd for games developed for windows systems.   Games
made for Linux are becoming more frequent, even some commerical
titles.  Have the best of both.

Quote:>...and can't wait until I can give up MS for good.

Personally I wouldn't sweat the 'must get rid of MS' thing.  If it
came on your PC pre-installed then leave it there as an option, use it
for games ... whatever. Your setup seems ideal.  I don't do the
MS=evil thing, there is choice - you're already part of that.
Different operating systems exist in different contexts, there need be
no 'one size fits all'.  Have fun!

Good, the sooner the better. Of course by then Debian will not complain about
my graphics card so I'll be using it anyway :)

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, maddman

 wrote
on 31 Oct 2001 08:38:11 -0800

Quote:>Okay, I admit it.  I'm a dual booter.  Actually, use removable hard
>drive bays to swap disks out.

>I've fallen in love with Linux.  Its great, all that power for free,
>developed by people who love doing it.  Many of the complaints people
>used to have are now things of the past.  Hardware support - RH 7.1
>supports all my hardware right out of the box.  Installation - I had
>more problems installing windows.  Appearance - make it look however
>you want.  Plus, as a networking geek I get powerful world class
>servers to play with, like sendmail and apache.  More programming
>languages than you can shake a stick at.

>There are some places I could see it improving.  One is applications.
>Distibuting apps as source is not acceptable for most users.  I
>figured it out, but don't understand why the authors couldn't compile
>it ahead of time.

There are some issues here; the most significant is the simple
observation that not all Linux users use x86 equipment.
(I have a SPARC system, for example, and wouldn't mind
getting my A3000 running Linux again.)  Secondly, there are
slight differences between distributions from a library standpoint.

Quote:>RPMs work, but chasing down dependencies is a
>nightmare for a new user.

Debian's dselect/apt-get mechanism is IMO much saner.

Quote:>For instance, I wanted to install Star
>Office 6.  THe documentation said I needed a specific version of
>glibc.  I had to go out on the usenet and find an answer.  It was some
>obscure command that I entered to get the version.  If I had to do it
>again, I'd need to search again.  Not impossible, but a pain.

>I hear apt-get is awesome and a good solution, but its Debian only.
>Deb intimidates me.  I have enough problems with the newbie friendly
>Red Hat.

Debian can be intimidating if one wants to try a download install.
I got it to work, but I'll have to try it again at some point and
this time take notes.  :-)  (Not that it's hard, just a bit
tricky.)

Quote:

>Another that affect me personally is the lack of certain GUI apps.
>FOr instance, I can't get X-CD-Roast to create CDs.  Locks up X.  I
>know its alpha code, so I'll just have to wait for it to get better or
>something else to come along.

Too vague a comment to be useful; there are a number of possible
issues here.  For instance, is X properly configured?  How
about the CD-ROM?

Quote:

>Another is games.  I read that a lot of them are supported by WINE and
>tried installing that.  The config file is a nightmare!

So is Windows. :-)  Bear in mind that WinE is alpha software so
you're probably seeing a lot of knobs, sliders, buttons, and
knife switches (metaphorically speaking, that is) that may not survive,
or may move to another location, when it becomes a finished product.
Should make things a little simpler.

Quote:

>However, I do realize somethign about open source.  It does not move
>at the same speed as commercial software.  I'm sure these problems
>will be fixed, and can't wait until I can give up MS for good.  Until
>then, I'll have to keep that windows disk around.

>In short, what I'd love to see is

>1- A centralized source to see what is installed, what version it is,
>and what it depends on in an easy to view manner.

How about Debian's dselect?  That's as easy as I can think of.
Or, if you think dselect is a tad klunky (it is, after all,
ncurses-based), there might be an apt add-on from KDE or Gnome.
I'd ahve to look.

Quote:

>2- A app that handles MP3 burning.  Rip em, encode em, burn them in
>mp3 or audio format.

This may be illegal in the near future.  But it would be nice.  :-)

Quote:

>3- A way to make WINE configuration a little easier.  I'm sure that
>will come about when it hits version 1.0

>If there's a way to do this stuff now, please let me know.  Its about
>all that is holding me back from dumping MS at home for all but
>experimental use.

--

EAC code #191       112d:01h:14m actually running Linux.
                    It's a * of one.

If I ever pick up a cheap ethernet card for my A3000T, I will bring it
back up and play some with it :)

Quote:

>>1- A centralized source to see what is installed, what version it is,
>>and what it depends on in an easy to view manner.

> How about Debian's dselect?  That's as easy as I can think of.
> Or, if you think dselect is a tad klunky (it is, after all,
> ncurses-based), there might be an apt add-on from KDE or Gnome.
> I'd ahve to look.

>>2- A app that handles MP3 burning.  Rip em, encode em, burn them in
>>mp3 or audio format.

> This may be illegal in the near future.  But it would be nice.  :-)

see Grip, it does this. mp3 or ogg encoding. Works a treat.

Quote:

>>3- A way to make WINE configuration a little easier.  I'm sure that
>>will come about when it hits version 1.0

>>If there's a way to do this stuff now, please let me know.  Its about
>>all that is holding me back from dumping MS at home for all but
>>experimental use.

winesetuptk

--
Jim Richardson
        Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
www.eskimo.com/~warlock
        Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.

http://www.veryComputer.com/

I guess it's because it beats the *out of opposing players(*). :)

* players - players in the OS market.

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