Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by ├╝berhun » Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:00:00



Well, I guess I just missed the glitz and slickness of Windows.  So I
switched back to NT as my main platform.  After all, it had really been
pretty stable for me.

After about a week, I realized that it hadn't been all that stable.  I
was just used to rebooting.  Almost every time an application crashed,
it took the whole OS with it.  Reboot.

Linux apps may crash sometimes, but never take down the OS (or almost
never).  I like Linux.  :-)

--
-berhund

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Bart Silverstri » Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:00:00



>On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:53:47 -0700, berhund



><snip>
>>After about a week, I realized that it hadn't been all that
stable.  I
>>was just used to rebooting.  Almost every time an application
crashed,
>>it took the whole OS with it.  Reboot.

>If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup. In
theory an
>app crash should never bring down the OS -- in using NT on known
>good hardware, for me it happens every few months, although I do
>know of a 100% guaranteed BSOD scenario.

I find that my setup of NT rarely ever crashes (don't remember
the last time it crashed), but instead, I find that it acts
unusual...

I am usually logged in for VERY long periods of time because a) I
don't need to log out and b) I'm running a program that needs to
run all the time and I don't have it installed as a service.

After about 21 to 23 days of being logged in, main uses every day
would be browsing the WWW and reading email and some telnetting,
little things would act weird.  I'd lose the tool tip for the
date when placing the pointer over the time in the system tray,
and I couldn't copy files using drag-n-drop from the desktop any
more.

weeeeeeeird.....

Quote:>>Linux apps may crash sometimes, but never take down the OS (or
almost
>>never).  I like Linux.  :-)

>That's how it should be.

In theory.

-Bart

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by j.. » Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:00:00





><snip>
>>After about a week, I realized that it hadn't been all that stable.  I
>>was just used to rebooting.  Almost every time an application crashed,
>>it took the whole OS with it.  Reboot.

>If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup. In theory an
>app crash should never bring down the OS -- in using NT on known

        ...so much for the ease OS...

[deletia]

--
Unix had  startmenus and tasbars before Microsoft          |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS.                 / | \

        In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by George Maren » Mon, 16 Nov 1998 04:00:00




<snip>

Quote:>After about a week, I realized that it hadn't been all that stable.  I
>was just used to rebooting.  Almost every time an application crashed,
>it took the whole OS with it.  Reboot.

If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup. In theory an
app crash should never bring down the OS -- in using NT on known
good hardware, for me it happens every few months, although I do
know of a 100% guaranteed BSOD scenario.

Quote:>Linux apps may crash sometimes, but never take down the OS (or almost
>never).  I like Linux.  :-)

That's how it should be.
 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Mark » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00


 Almost every time an application crashed, it took the whole OS with it.
Reboot.

Quote:>>>If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup.
>Something's always wrong with the NT setup. Do a clean install,
>it should be set up correctly. Move the mouse, and it's a different
>story.

Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT
and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

I don't love M$ NT, but this kind of BS isn't doing anyone any good. NT by
and large does an admirable job considering it's bloat and patch-worked
code.
You sound like someone trying to justify using something else and having no
fun at it.

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Daniel Tayl » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00




> Almost every time an application crashed, it took the whole OS with it.
>Reboot.

>>>>If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup.

>>Something's always wrong with the NT setup. Do a clean install,
>>it should be set up correctly. Move the mouse, and it's a different
>>story.

>Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT
>and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
>I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
>Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
>of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
>it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
>logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

That is very bad, if you do not understand why I can attempt
to explain it. My personal experience varies dramatically by machine
and application so I can see how you could have a relatively good
experience with it.

Quote:>I don't love M$ NT, but this kind of BS isn't doing anyone any good. NT by
>and large does an admirable job considering it's bloat and patch-worked
>code.

???

--
Daniel Taylor
Unix is a Linux-like operating system.

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Simon Kinaha » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00



> Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT
> and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
> I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
> Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
> of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
> it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
> logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

Quite. There are far too many people on this group who might as well be
auto-posting programs (assuming they aren't ...). Whatever anyone says they
say "Thats fine untill your Windows setup crashes" or "At least Linux
doesn't*up its registry" and so on and so forth.

It is no kind of Linux advocacy to point out the flaws in NT untill people
want to * you. The part of the world that gives a damn about NT
(which includes me, since I use it here at work) is already acquainted with
its problems and has their own opinion to rely on. NT or Windows 9x have
nothing to do with Linux and whether they suck or not should not be a part
of Linux advocacy unless the two systems are being compared specifically.

Simon

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by j.. » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00




>> Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT
>> and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
>> I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
>> Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
>> of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
>> it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
>> logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

>Quite. There are far too many people on this group who might as well be
>auto-posting programs (assuming they aren't ...). Whatever anyone says they
>say "Thats fine untill your Windows setup crashes" or "At least Linux
>doesn't*up its registry" and so on and so forth.

        Consumer Microsoft OSes have always been crap. Our willingness to
        point that out and draw from out own experiences doesn't change
        that. Many of us find Unix in general considerably more friendly
        becuase of it's robustness. NT is nicer but it's also expensive,
        not what is being pushed onto novice consumers that may  infact
        really need it, requires more resources to run, seems to require
        expert administration from some accounts and still has it's own
        quirks to annoy the old Unix or VMS user.

Quote:

>It is no kind of Linux advocacy to point out the flaws in NT untill people
>want to * you. The part of the world that gives a damn about NT
>(which includes me, since I use it here at work) is already acquainted with
>its problems and has their own opinion to rely on. NT or Windows 9x have
>nothing to do with Linux and whether they suck or not should not be a part
>of Linux advocacy unless the two systems are being compared specifically.

        When people whine about Linux not yet 'being ready', it is quite
        relevant since presumably Windows should be a good reflection on
        what should consitute ready. Most detractors don't bring up the
        real reason for the success of WinDOS: the perception that everyone
        is using it; and bring up gripes that rather show the weaknesses
        of 'the default option' when compared to just about anything else.

--
Unix had  startmenus and tasbars before Microsoft          |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS.                 / | \

        In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://www.veryComputer.com/

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Tomer Pete » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT
> and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
> I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
> Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
> of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
> it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
> logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

I am sure you know that the device driver runs in Kernel mode and thus has the
power to crash the system.
Wouldnt Linux respond the same given the same or similar conditions?
Essentially you are asking the OS to vector to an interrupt (or make some DPC
to) code that is not alreay there.
Also, I believe your blue screen was a STOP message with appropriate diagnostics
as to the fault that occured.
I dont think this reflects on the reliability of the system.
You know what?
I once turned off swapping on my Linux box, and guess what? It crashed as soon
as I invoked cc

--
======================================================
****************** Tomer Petel ***********************

************* Remove stopspam to email **************
======================================================

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by George Maren » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00






>>>On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:53:47 -0700, berhund


>>><snip>
>>>>After about a week, I realized that it hadn't been all that
>>>>stable.  I was just used to rebooting.  Almost every time an
>>>>application crashed, it took the whole OS with it.  Reboot.

>>>If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup.

>Something's always wrong with the NT setup. Do a clean install,
>it should be set up correctly. Move the mouse, and it's a different
>story.

If you can't post intelligently, why bother doing it at all?
I'll admit that my experience with NT has shown it to be less
stable than Linux, but on average my box BSOD's about
every other month.

If someone came in here and said his Linux box was giving him
kernel panics every other week, and you believed him, what
would say the cause of the problem was? Bad hardware? I see
that advice given frequently on the non-advocasy Linux NG's,
so don't even bother to tell me it doesn't happen.

Quote:>You have to install a program as a "service" to get it to run
>while you're logged out on NT? That is the stupidest thing I
>have ever heard,

Why is that the stupidest thing you have ever heard?
 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Terry Port » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00




>>Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
>> I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
>> Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault.

>Quite. There are far too many people on this group who might as well be
>auto-posting programs (assuming they aren't ...).

Too many for the windoze advocates anyway :-)

Neverthless its not a bad idea, as most of the windoze FUD is pretty
repeatitive, and could easily be handled by a auto responder.
Shame the rules probably prevent it ;-(

Quote:> Whatever anyone says they
>say "Thats fine untill your Windows setup crashes" or "At least Linux
>doesn't*up its registry" and so on and so forth.

Maybe these people have had experiences you havent *yet* had?
Perhaps you may benefit from that??
Quote:

>It is no kind of Linux advocacy to point out the flaws in NT untill people
>want to * you.

Its good therapy, we enjoy it, and windoze gives us such excellent material
to work with.

Quote:> The part of the world that gives a damn about NT
>(which includes me, since I use it here at work) is already acquainted with
>its problems and has their own opinion to rely on.

Perhaps, but others are here, who may not be so well aquainted with the
problems ?

Quote:> NT or Windows 9x have
>nothing to do with Linux

Wrong! they have a lot to do with Linux, the Microsoft machine is currently
in FUD mode, we have the right of reply.

Quote:> and whether they suck or not should not be a part
>of Linux advocacy unless the two systems are being compared specifically.

In your opinion you mean?

Anyway tell it to Boris.

Quote:

>Simon

terry
--

   My Computer is powered by GNU-LINUX, and has been
 up 4 days 17 hours 55 minutes
..........NOTE Spam protection in use...................
 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Daniel Tayl » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>> Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT
>> and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
>> I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
>> Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
>> of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
>> it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
>> logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

>I am sure you know that the device driver runs in Kernel mode and thus has the
>power to crash the system.

Absolutely true.

Quote:>Wouldnt Linux respond the same given the same or similar conditions?

It would be an indication that the driver was broken.
Lack of configured hardare under Linux normally results
in the driver failing to initialize and being disabled.

Quote:>Essentially you are asking the OS to vector to an interrupt (or make some DPC
>to) code that is not alreay there.

And it doesn't have a mechanism for dealing with this.

Quote:>Also, I believe your blue screen was a STOP message with appropriate diagnostics
>as to the fault that occured.
>I dont think this reflects on the reliability of the system.

It does reflect on it's robustness.

Quote:>You know what?
>I once turned off swapping on my Linux box, and guess what? It crashed as soon
>as I invoked cc

Did the system crash or did gcc crash?
I sometimes generate overcommit conditions with gcc
to test the system's robustness, and it is gcc that gets axed.  
It may take 5-10 minutes to recover the system,
but the system _does_ recover.

--
Daniel Taylor  
Unix is a Linux-like operating system.

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Anthony O » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00





> Almost every time an application crashed, it took the whole OS with it.
>Reboot.

>>>>If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup.

>>Something's always wrong with the NT setup. Do a clean install,
>>it should be set up correctly. Move the mouse, and it's a different
>>story.
>Yep, there are 20 million people right this second moving the mouse under NT

Is that all? I thought it had sold better than that.

Quote:>and the system is crashing. Pure LUB. I've used NT since 3.51 and now 4.
>I've had an app lock the system once, and that was Opera 3.21. I've had one
>Blue screen in that time, and that was my fault. I had removed the instance
>of a sound card  to replace it and didn't tell the system not to map through
>it. When I went to shutdown and install the new card NT tried to play my
>logoff sound and blue screened. Woo-hoo!

Occasionally (about once a day:) I run my MP3 play on Linux before I
insert the sound module. What happens? Literally noting. No kernel
panic, no BSOD, no sound. I then insert the sound driver and try
again. What happens? I hear music. That is the way it should be. I
might have a brain-failure, but I don't expect my OS to come out in
sympathy.

Quote:>I don't love M$ NT, but this kind of BS isn't doing anyone any good. NT by
>and large does an admirable job considering it's bloat and patch-worked
>code.
>You sound like someone trying to justify using something else and having no
>fun at it.

Regards

Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!'                                         |
|                                              Ren & Stimpy   |
===============================================================

 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by Mark Woodwar » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00


As a Windows NT developer I can tell you that that is not true. Windows NT
puts the GDI in kernel space and, depending on your video driver, there
are various esoteric calls that will kill your OS.

Not to mention, Excel 97 on my machine is 50/50 bet whether it will BSOD
NT on me. My machine is using all MS distributed drivers. on a fairly new
machine.

No, it has been my experience that NT BSODs regularly if your use GUI
applications a lot. The kernel is no place for a GUI.

Another thing, Microsoft mandates that application developers supply OS
updates with their applications. When Microsoft has a new OLE .DLL, it is
conceptually an OS level driver, but, does not go through as thorough a QA
cycle as if it were shipped with the OS. So, essentially, you are a beta
tester for new OS components when you install newer software.

It is simply stupid and a poor way to treat a "secure" (hah!) OS.
So, no NT is neither stable nor secure in any sense of the definitions.




> <snip>
> >After about a week, I realized that it hadn't been all that stable.  I
> >was just used to rebooting.  Almost every time an application crashed,
> >it took the whole OS with it.  Reboot.

> If that's the case, something is wrong with your setup. In theory an
> app crash should never bring down the OS -- in using NT on known
> good hardware, for me it happens every few months, although I do
> know of a 100% guaranteed BSOD scenario.

> >Linux apps may crash sometimes, but never take down the OS (or almost
> >never).  I like Linux.  :-)

> That's how it should be.

--
Mohawk Software
Expert Solutions Now! Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX,
Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
 
 
 

Why I switched back to NT, and then back to Linux again

Post by George Maren » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00


On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:37:40 -0500, Mark Woodward


>As a Windows NT developer I can tell you that that is not true. Windows NT
>puts the GDI in kernel space and, depending on your video driver, there
>are various esoteric calls that will kill your OS.

Although I am not a developer (NT or otherwise), although I do dabble
in MSVC++5.0, VB5.0 and Delphi 3.0,  I am aware that MS put the GDI in
kernel space in NT4. Nonetheless, if an NT box is crashing as Uberhund
has been crashing, which is:

"Almost every time an application crashed, it took the whole OS with
it.  Reboot."

I still hold that there is something wrong with his hardware. Either
that or he has very poor video drivers. I run NT on quality hardware
and with qualified NT video drivers. It crashes, on average, about
every other month.

I stand by my statement that in theory, an app crash should never
bring down an OS. In reality, that happens on my setup every few
months.

Quote:>No, it has been my experience that NT BSODs regularly if your use GUI
>applications a lot. The kernel is no place for a GUI.

Your experience differs from many people who use NT on quality
hardware with known good video drivers. Since I use GUI applications
a lot, I certainly fit into your definition.

Quote:>Another thing, Microsoft mandates that application developers supply OS
>updates with their applications.

Just how is it that they enforce this "mandate" ?

Quote:>It is simply stupid and a poor way to treat a "secure" (hah!) OS.
>So, no NT is neither stable nor secure in any sense of the definitions.

Your results seem to be at odds with many people who have had
relatively good success (me being one) with NT.  Sure, it's not as
stable as Linux, but then other than other Unix derivatives or
mainframe OS's, few are.