Very Computer

The momentum is slowly building like a barely noticeable undercurrent:
Linux 'plug-and-play' distributions are on their way, several office
suites are already available, most useful Win 3.1 apps run under WABI,
the best games (Doom, Quake) run natively.

Further, any serious computer user who does a little programming and
tries Linux usually never comes back to MS and becomes an advocate (like
me right now). It's not that MS software is inherently bad, it's just
that it is no match against the quality, diversity and power of modern
(and free) Unix tools.

This is Internet Time, MS is like a chess player always one move late.
It simply cannot catch-up at this point. MS will still have a
significant applications business but will progressively decline as an
OS provider.

Gates' problem is greed, too much greed, too obvious. Linux is the
opposite, it is all about sharing and spreading knowledge and power to
the common man, just for the sake of it. No more assassinated Mozarts
with the Internet and Linux: anybody from anywhere with abilities can
contribute. A really smart move on MS's part would be to ditch their
hopelessly lame OSes and start putting together a Linux distribution.

Linux is deeply political, it goes much beyond computing. No business
will ever achieve the level of commitment and collaboration going on
right now in the free software world.
--

     Louis-David Mitterrand
     (Formula 1): http://www.veryComputer.com/
     (Java page): http://www.veryComputer.com/

: MS's undoing will come from the free software world. I know that kind of
: theory usually draws incredulous reactions, but personally I see it
: coming. Linux, specifically is a big threat to MS. Not right now but
: five to ten years from now.

To ensure it becomes a threat to M$, every Linuxhead is going to have to
work on documentation that newbies can understand, utilities for making
installation of software packages easier, etc. It's not a threat now,
that's becuse it's not newbie-friendly enough. This becomes evident to me
every time I try to get help, and I havn't sufficient clues to post.
Result? Flames. :(

: Further, any serious computer user who does a little programming and
: tries Linux usually never comes back to MS and becomes an advocate (like
: me right now). It's not that MS software is inherently bad, it's just
: that it is no match against the quality, diversity and power of modern
: (and free) Unix tools.

For C programmers and professional admins, Linux is the OS of choice. I
like Linux, mostly becuse of the cost. Being one who doesn't program in C
nor run Linux on my brain, I get confused when trying to use
documentation, trying to figure out why something won't compile with a 32
M swap file, etc. For someone who's not a professional UNIX Admin, it can
be daunting. I'd be a perfect "Joe 6-Pack" guinea pig for testing
newbie-friendliness of distributions.

: This is Internet Time, MS is like a chess player always one move late.

I would prefer to use the phrase "Millisecond late and a Gigabuck short".

        On the user friendly side the new RedHat 4.0 gets about as jump up and
* your face friendly as any OS I have ever seen.  Beats the pants off
WIN95 install.  And the book that comes with it is easy enough to
understand.  Configuring things like the X server and Network are totaly
GUI ( especialy with the Metro X configuration utility for the X server
).  It is about as Click and shoot as any configuration can be with
enough options to allow configuration for the ideal situation.  The
package tool for software installs is also very GUI intensive and
extreamly easy to use.  Not to mention it has the fvwm95 ( 95 desktop
for X ) window manager.  This has made it a breize to get WIN95 users
upto speed.  For most of my users they can barey tell the diffrance.

Quote:

> : Further, any serious computer user who does a little programming and
> : tries Linux usually never comes back to MS and becomes an advocate (like
> : me right now). It's not that MS software is inherently bad, it's just
> : that it is no match against the quality, diversity and power of modern
> : (and free) Unix tools.

> For C programmers and professional admins, Linux is the OS of choice. I
> like Linux, mostly becuse of the cost. Being one who doesn't program in C
> nor run Linux on my brain, I get confused when trying to use
> documentation, trying to figure out why something won't compile with a 32
> M swap file, etc. For someone who's not a professional UNIX Admin, it can
> be daunting. I'd be a perfect "Joe 6-Pack" guinea pig for testing
> newbie-friendliness of distributions.

Quote:

> : This is Internet Time, MS is like a chess player always one move late.

> I would prefer to use the phrase "Millisecond late and a Gigabuck short".

Ron Burton

Quote:>Not to mention Qspy, Quakeworld...Why not give it to someone (or
>everyone) who has the time to do it? Linux is not famous for it's
>quick updates.

Quote:>> will ever achieve the level of commitment and collaboration going on
>> right now in the free software world.
>Then let's see it, Quake now please!! :)

Bernie
--
============================================================================
"How does Windows work?"
  Mike Battersby, BCS (Hon), System administrator at Deakin Uni, while trying
  to handle Netscape/Windows during a meeting of the Linux Users of Victoria

While I admire the free software movement, I am upset at the "Figure
it out yourself, A#$#$#" remarks, and believe they show, not
intellectual and technical superiority, but *inferiority*;  you'll
never know how much you REALLY know about something until you have to
explain it to someone else.  And it is hard.  And very humbling.  Much
easier to just snap at someone.

Linux hackers may never realize it, but even they appreciate good
technical documentation;  they just can't admit it, preferring to hack
it out themselves rather than lose brownie points by asking for help.

Dave


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: : MS's undoing will come from the free software world. I know that kind of
: : theory usually draws incredulous reactions, but personally I see it
: : coming. Linux, specifically is a big threat to MS. Not right now but
: : five to ten years from now.

: To ensure it becomes a threat to M$, every Linuxhead is going to have to
: work on documentation that newbies can understand, utilities for making
: installation of software packages easier, etc.

There's too much work to be done in other areas. The Linux Documentation
Project is doing a fine job, but most of the Linux people are aiming at
getting features and bugs sorted out first, and documentation later. Yet
despite this the documentation is *already* fantastic (relative to most
Unix documentation).

: It's not a threat now, that's becuse it's not newbie-friendly enough.

It doesn't need to be (yet).

: This becomes evident to me
: every time I try to get help, and I havn't sufficient clues to post.
: Result? Flames. :(

Calm collected posters get calm collected answers. Frustrated and rude
posters get frustrated and rude answers. Take time to carefully write
down your problem, and what you have done so far to fix it. Include any
configuration files you think are relevant (I should sometimes follow
my own advice!).

And *don't* start flaming if people don't drop what they are doing to
run to your side. It *is* near Christmas after all, and people are busy
doing their real (paid for) work.

--
This newsgroups are forums of intellectual debate and counter arguements
[seen on a microsoft advocacy group... proof of garbage in, garbage out]

|> >

|> > > Probably not within ten years.  Microsoft's * will most likely
|> > > be bounded on the outside by Gates' control of the company.  When he
|> > > retires or loses control they'll lose their vision, and things should
|> > > coast for awhile and then start to fall apart within ten or fif*
|> > > years.
|> >
|> > MS's undoing will come from the free software world. I know that kind of
|> > theory usually draws incredulous reactions, but personally I see it
|> > coming. Linux, specifically is a big threat to MS. Not right now but
|> > five to ten years from now.
|> >
|> > The momentum is slowly building like a barely noticeable undercurrent:
|> > Linux 'plug-and-play' distributions are on their way, several office
|> > suites are already available, most useful Win 3.1 apps run under WABI,
|> > the best games (Doom, Quake) run natively.
|>
|> The undercurrent analogy may be true, but...I've been running linux for about a
|> month now. That's a month of 1:00 am weeknights and 3-4:00 am weekends
|> struggling to make it work. Have you checked to see if quake runs... lately.
|>
|> >
|> > Further, any serious computer user who does a little programming and
|> > tries Linux usually never comes back to MS and becomes an advocate (like
|> > me right now). It's not that MS software is inherently bad, it's just
|> > that it is no match against the quality, diversity and power of modern
|> > (and free) Unix tools.
|> >
|> > This is Internet Time, MS is like a chess player always one move late.
|> > It simply cannot catch-up at this point.
|>
|> Here's another good one. Using quake as an example. Why did they give it to
|> Linus to port? The man is so busy we'll be lucky to ever see a 106 xf86quake for
|> linux. Not to mention Qspy, Quakeworld...Why not give it to someone (or
|> everyone) who has the time to do it? Linux is not famous for it's quick updates.
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bollocks. Compared to what?

|>
|> >MS will still have a
|> > significant applications business but will progressively decline as an
|> > OS provider.
|> >
|> > Gates' problem is greed, too much greed, too obvious. Linux is the
|> > opposite, it is all about sharing and spreading knowledge and power to
|> > the common man, just for the sake of it. No more assassinated Mozarts
|> > with the Internet and Linux: anybody from anywhere with abilities can
|> > contribute. A really smart move on MS's part would be to ditch their
|> > hopelessly lame OSes and start putting together a Linux distribution.
|> >
|> > Linux is deeply political, it goes much beyond computing. No business
|>
|> Yes it is, it definately goes beyond computing. Linux is UNNECESSARILY hard. I

I think you are making it " UNNECESSARILY hard." Get a RedHat install. You'll be up &
running in less than an hour. I haven't had a late night doing configuration for about
18 months.

|> don't have to time to earn my doctorate to learn to run an OS and neither does
|> anyone else. Personally I like linux. Unfortunately when I want to get something
|> done I have to go to Winblows. I can't even run a "native" game properly. Yes I

Oh sorry. This is Linux, we CAN'T spend money on it, buying a an office package can we?
Oh no we have to build source & edit with VI etc etc etc etc.

Well this is just crap.

You don't need to spend days on set up anymore. You don't need to use VI as an editor
and there ARE office productivity apps available for Linux, NOW.

Well Applixware is just $79 right now from redhat. There is WordPerfect from Caldera and
WABI and CorelDraw etc et.

So what are you moaning about?

--
Archeus Free FRPG - http://www.veryComputer.com/

My opinions are completely my own, bought and paid for.

1) You still need to inform the install program if you use SCSI devices,
   and what type of host adapter you have.  The install routine should
   be able to auto-detect this.

2) Disk partitioning and filesystem building needs improving (I was
   disappointed to find cfdisk missing for installation).  Ideally, some
   sort of 'wizard' tool should be available to help the user determine
   partition sizes and mount points (better yet, first prompt the user
   for the packages they wish to install, *then* set up partitions
   accordingly).

No doubt there are other items that could stand improvement (those were
just the ones I could think of off the top of my head).

-Art
--

Network Analyst                 | Snail Mail:   1941 South 42nd Street
Midwest Network Solutions Corp. |               Suite 528
(402) 346-7687 F:(402) 346-8838 |               Omaha, NE 68105-2939

Every person who asks a stupid question makes it harder for the people
who *really* need help to get that help.

RTFM -- you'll get your question answered faster anyway.

--

Crynwr Software sells network driver support    | PGP ok
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | The more corrupt the state,
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   | the more numerous the laws.

- from The Linux Alphanumeric Pager Gateway Mini-HOWTO by Chris Snell

--
=============================================================================

     linux for fun, M$ for $$$...and the NFL for what really counts!
=============================================================================

Quote:

>RTFM -- you'll get your question answered faster anyway.

Congratulations, Russ!  You've just encapsulated the Linux culture
right there!  I hope you're proud of yourself!  "Free.  Altruistic.
Generous."  Not.

Dave


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So when you pick out one Mini-HOWTO out of 100s as if to show that
Linux documentation is of uniformly poor quality or is authored by
people with less than helpful attitude, all you demonstrate is your
ignorance and/or your prejudice.
--

        They also surf who only stand on the waves.

: > Linux is deeply political, it goes much beyond computing. No business

: Yes it is, it definately goes beyond computing. Linux is UNNECESSARILY hard. [...]

it's a matter of 'where do you pay the complexity price'.

In the Windows world, the OS and applications pretend being easy to use. Result:
damn hard to do >implement< anything reasonably complex, and plain impossible to
do serious systems integration.

In the Linux world, the complexity is being put where it belongs, and yes,
sometimes it shows up in the applications as well. But you get alot for that.

it's not ideal, but it tries to be the least complex, on the whole.

Windows tries to be the least complex on the user interface side, at >any<
price. The price is mostly system usefulness and effectiveness. I hope ppl dont
need a doctorate to understand this.

-- mingo