Very Computer

I am not trying to start a flame war here but I just keep wondering why
practically every other thread in here is about Microsoft.  Isn't there
enough good points to advocate in Linux that one has to hilight the bad
in M$ or BG ??

We just switched to Linux a month ago and I think there is just so much
of potential in Linux as a viable Commercial OS/NOS.  Linux is growing
fast enough that you don't totally draw blank faces from the people here
in Malaysia, least not amongst the Techies.

Why don't we concentrate more on how we can promote and make Linux more
than the great Operating System it already is.

And guys, let's not condemn the likes of Netscape.  Whether or not it is
bloated is really irrelevant.  What is important that it has offered
Newbiews like ourselves, alternatives, much in the spirit of Linux, in
which there can be more than one way of arriving at a solution.  We
should be glad that there is at least some recognition of the importance
of Linux that there is a port of Netscape.

Let's all light a candle and not curse the darkness !!

Wilf
Digital Systems, Malaysia.

: I am not trying to start a flame war here but I just keep wondering why
: practically every other thread in here is about Microsoft.  Isn't there
: enough good points to advocate in Linux that one has to hilight the bad
: in M$ or BG ??

It's usually more effective to persuade more users to move to Linux, if
they have a >reason<, Wilf.  When we point out the bad aspects in Microsoft
software, we are saying, "Hey, <technical *found in WindowsXX> is
totally unacceptable... Linux doesn't suffer from this".

: Why don't we concentrate more on how we can promote and make Linux more
: than the great Operating System it already is.

By pointing out the disadvantages of other offerings, we are doing just
that.  It's not really being negative... but rather promoting an
alternative to the status quo (which, as you are most likely aware...
isn't very good at all).

: And guys, let's not condemn the likes of Netscape.  Whether or not it is
: bloated is really irrelevant.  What is important that it has offered
: Newbiews like ourselves, alternatives, much in the spirit of Linux, in
: which there can be more than one way of arriving at a solution.  We
: should be glad that there is at least some recognition of the importance
: of Linux that there is a port of Netscape.

I don't think the product is condemned as much as the Corp. is condemned
for their Microsoft-like business practices.  I use Netscape when I must,
but I must say, I would rather use Lynx any day.

Netscape doesn't care about Linux... they care about what Microsoft, Sun,
IBM, and other corp.s care about... money!

: Let's all light a candle and not curse the darkness !!

You know... <sniff> I LOVE YOU GUYS!... <sniff> I REALLY DO! <snorf>  :~)

Heehee.  :)
--

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[snip...]

Quote:>I am not trying to start a flame war here but I just keep wondering why
>practically every other thread in here is about Microsoft.  Isn't there
>enough good points to advocate in Linux that one has to hilight the bad
>in M$ or BG ??

I'm saying this even though I'm a Star Trek fan (although Voyager
still hasn't won me over all that much).

Quote:>Why don't we concentrate more on how we can promote and make Linux more
>than the great Operating System it already is.

Quote:>And guys, let's not condemn the likes of Netscape.

--
=======================================================

For user-friendly Linux: See KDE at http://www.kde.org!

Quote:> I am not trying to start a flame war here but I just keep wondering why
> practically every other thread in here is about Microsoft.  Isn't there
> enough good points to advocate in Linux that one has to hilight the bad
> in M$ or BG ??

--1st Amendment

Who do you think invented Java???

IBM and Microshit have not been partners for years.

Quote:>: What is an example of Microshit-like practice from Netscape?

>Oh, just their taking open standards, and then trying to make them
>proprietary, etc.

Quote:> Microsoft, unless I am mistaken, tried to do this
>with Java.  Netscape, I believe, has tried to do this with HTML.

Quote:>I like companies like SUN...

Quote:>: [sarcasm]Ah yes, no graphics, no Java,  very little fromatting
>: capability, etc. Yep, Lynx is really a state-of-the-art browser.
>: [sarcasm off]

>Brian, what are you most interested in... information or pretty pictures?

Quote:>: Ultimately, though, computer technology such as the Netscape browser
>: and the personal computer/network computer can potentially be greatly
>: empowering to  people. Bringing information access to the people....

>Great... just what the internet needs... more fscking idiots who are more
>interested in whacking off to web *, then they are in using their
>computer for something useful [3] (pardon my French).

-------------
"cogito ergo sum." --Rene Descartes ("I think, therefore I am")

Brian Mueller [mulder78 at ix dot netcom dot com]

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Quote:> I don't think the product is condemned as much as the Corp. is condemned
> for their Microsoft-like business practices.  I use Netscape when I must,
> but I must say, I would rather use Lynx any day.

Quote:> Netscape doesn't care about Linux... they care about what Microsoft, Sun,
> IBM, and other corp.s care about... money!

Just the fact that there IS a linux version (and the last PRODUCTION
version
on top of that) is an evidence that Netscape awknowledges the fact that
there is
a linux community that is growing and a real market there. They want to
take advantage of it. And more over, since linux is mostly used in
educational
institutions, they actually GIVE it to those student (and this is not,
IMHO, an
attempt to kill competition since every body can do the same).

Anyways... nice weekend!

Regards.

Sbatien Dumais
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[re: condemming Netscape]

Quote:>I don't think the product is condemned as much as the Corp. is condemned
>for their Microsoft-like business practices.  

Quote:>I use Netscape when I must,
>but I must say, I would rather use Lynx any day.

Quote:>Netscape doesn't care about Linux... they care about what Microsoft, Sun,
>IBM, and other corp.s care about... money!

Ultimately, though, computer technology such as the Netscape browser
and the personal computer/network computer can potentially be greatly
empowering to  people. Bringing information access to the people....

-------------
"cogito ergo sum." --Rene Descartes ("I think, therefore I am")

Brian Mueller [mulder78 at ix dot netcom dot com]

: >I don't think the product is condemned as much as the Corp. is condemned
: >for their Microsoft-like business practices.  

: Microshit-like???? Netscape is one of the few companies willing to
: oppose Microshit!!! How can you say that?
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Netscape has teamed up with IBM, and SUN.  What SUN is doing with the
likes of these two, I shall never know.

: What is an example of Microshit-like practice from Netscape?

Oh, just their taking open standards, and then trying to make them
proprietary, etc.  Microsoft, unless I am mistaken, tried to do this
with Java.  Netscape, I believe, has tried to do this with HTML.

I like companies like SUN... people who actually do support open
hardware/software standards.  SUN's hardware can be cloned, and
so can a great deal of their software, from what I have been told.

: >I use Netscape when I must,
: >but I must say, I would rather use Lynx any day.

: [sarcasm]Ah yes, no graphics, no Java,  very little fromatting
: capability, etc. Yep, Lynx is really a state-of-the-art browser.
: [sarcasm off]

Brian, what are you most interested in... information or pretty pictures?
I want information... I want documentation... and I don't want to wait
25 seconds for a stupid banner to load (ISDN, I will be with thee soon!).

Once I have that info, then >>I<< can format it however I damn well please.

With Lynx, I get what I want... info.  With Internet Exploder, or
Nutscrape Complicator, I have to wait for elements to load up
that I don't need [1].

I do use Netscape when I am looking at a page for the first time... after
that, I use Lynx, unless the page does actually have some graphics I want
to see [2].

: >Netscape doesn't care about Linux... they care about what Microsoft, Sun,
: >IBM, and other corp.s care about... money!

: What do you expect them to care about?

I merely refuted the previous statement, Brian, which suggested that
Netscape ported their software to Linux because 'they care'.

: Ultimately, though, computer technology such as the Netscape browser
: and the personal computer/network computer can potentially be greatly
: empowering to  people. Bringing information access to the people....

Great... just what the internet needs... more fscking idiots who are more
interested in whacking off to web *, then they are in using their
computer for something useful [3] (pardon my French).

[1] Useless logos, and banners, saved in jpeg, at full quality, so they
    look nice, and take forever to load, especially when all of the
    *s looking for urine and * pix dial into Globalcenter.

[2] There are very few 'decent' 3-D graphics companies left from the
    late '80s... most that exist now, are truly wanna-bes.

[3] The type of people who use such *in terms, like *space[4],
    virtual reality[5], information superhighway[6], and who think
    Windows is a technical marvel.

[4] This term was long abandoned by the experts, since the lusers
    started using it.

[5] This term is still used, because nothing better to describe it
    has been concocted.

[6] Don't even get me started on how fscking stupid this term is.
--

<< UNIX >> Because everything else, is just a pathetic toy.
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: >: Microshit-like???? Netscape is one of the few companies willing to
: >: oppose Microshit!!! How can you say that?
: >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >Netscape has teamed up with IBM, and SUN.  What SUN is doing with the
: >likes of these two, I shall never know.

: Sun is completly, utterly, totally against Microshit!!!!
: Who do you think invented Java???
: IBM and Microshit have not been partners for years.

Brian, my statement was commentary, not refutement.  I just was not
sure if you were aware of that, that's all.  Chill d00d.  :)

: >Oh, just their taking open standards, and then trying to make them
: >proprietary, etc.

: On the contrary, they STAND for open standards!!!

ROTFL!  I don't even wanna get into it.

: > Microsoft, unless I am mistaken, tried to do this
: >with Java.  Netscape, I believe, has tried to do this with HTML.

: Netscape has done nothing of the kind.

Uh, you can ask anyone here about the business practices of NS.  I
personally don't want to get into it.

: >I like companies like SUN...

: Then why did you say you don't like Netscape having teamed with them?

Uh... erm... because I DON'T!  Just because I like SUN, I have to like
the fact that they have teamed up with Nutscrape?

: >Brian, what are you most interested in... information or pretty pictures?

: I'm interested in being able to use content.

So am I.  So I want info that I can use... save pictures for video games.

: >Great... just what the internet needs... more fscking idiots who are more
: >interested in whacking off to web *, then they are in using their
: >computer for something useful [3] (pardon my French).

: I was thinking of providing information access to people who otherwise
: wouldn't be able to afford it.

The components they currently need far exceed what many impoverished
households, unfortunately, can afford.
--

<< UNIX >> Because everything else, is just a pathetic toy.
NOTE:  Please redirect all SPAM, TROLLS, and FLAMES to /dev/toilet1
PHlaxiOR iZ nAwt a HaCkER... hIZ tYpINg juSt ReELLee, ReELLee, SUx!

: IBM at least makes a few decent products (RS/6000 and AIX, for example).
: I'd consider them closer to Sun than Microsoft in this respect.

I will say this, Andrew... IBM has proven to be able to create some
top notch products.  However, back when they 'ruled' the world,
they were very much like Microsoft is today (some would say IBM
was worse than Microsoft).

OS/2 is a good example of how open a proprietary OS can be.

[referring to Netscape's business practices]
: Tried to a long time ago.  Notice how lynx is getting some of that
: new stuff in now?  I don't particularly _like_ netscrape, but it
: has resulted in some mild innovations and it does have its uses
: when employed strictly as an html client (i.e. NOT for news, mail,
: et cetera).

Good points, all of them.  I don't have a problem with Nutscrape's
products really.  Communicator is pretty decent (though, as always,
bloated).  I still prefer the lean, speedy text based Lynx.

: >: [sarcasm]Ah yes, no graphics, no Java,  very little fromatting
: >: capability, etc. Yep, Lynx is really a state-of-the-art browser.
: >: [sarcasm off]

: It looks more like arrogance to me.  Techno-snobs.  Phooey.

I would say, more like Techno-peasants, who refuse to actually try to
use an interface which does not have smiling Barney-fied pictures all over
it.  With that in mind, GOD FORBID anyone should have to learn to use
something which provides a direct means of communicating to the OS, like
...um... a CLI!

: AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO USES THE F&^%ING EXTERNAL VIEWER IN LYNX?

: I can see all the cutesy piccies I want by selecting the inlines
: and spawning off zgv on them.  Not that I bother most of the time.

Hmmm... I use the Web about as much as I use chopsticks for eating.
[which is very strange, because I LOVE Chinese food]
However, your comments have sparked my interest... I will check it out.

: They may not "care" but they're at least willing to make the effort
: to do the port.  Most commercial sw companies still don't.

True.  More software availability does not hurt.  The original statment
implied that Netscape actually gave a *whether or not Linux
thrives... they don't.

: Heh.  WWW stands for World Wide *, din't you know that? ;)

Jesus, Andrew, tell me about it.

"*** Sweet sweaty Suzy want to* up every drop! ***"
"*** Hot Asian *s wanna get fscked real bad! ***"
"$$$$$ Make tons of money by being a complete * like me! $$$$$"

These stupid 'companies' are popping up all over now, thanx to the
'infermashun Sooperhiway'.  See why I avoid to web?  ;)

: I've always equated "cool" ingroupy terms with drooling idiocy.  We
: had a few of those in radio.  They were mostly used by the unclueful
: dimshits in sales.  I equate them with Windows worshippers - they
: share the mindset.

HAHAHA!  I know what you mean.  I love it when a luser tries to
explain some technical aspect of computing to their boss by fumbling
about with terms of which they do not know the meaning... if I could
see this for about 2 to 3 hours every day, I would no longer need TV.

: Simulation.

Thanx Andrew... you just freed me from ever having to use that term
again.  :)

: >[6] Don't even get me started on how fscking stupid this term is.

: Indeed.
--

<< UNIX >> Because everything else, is just a pathetic toy.
NOTE:  Please redirect all SPAM, TROLLS, and FLAMES to /dev/toilet1
PHlaxiOR iZ nAwt a HaCkER... hIZ tYpINg juSt ReELLee, ReELLee, SUx!

Quote:> Linux is already a great programmer's option, and once
> it becomes a viable Mom and Pop option, you'll see its growth curve
> accelerate even more.

Wilf
Digital Systems, Malaysia

Succesful literature normally dwells more on the advantages of a product than
highlighting the disadvantages of another.  I feel the same concept may apply
here.

IRL, I am generating a lot of interest in Linux by showing my friends and
customers alike the such screens as CDE, Applixware and Samba.  People I have
shown Linux too locally tend to be very interested in, just to name a few:

[a]    The Quality of Graphics when I run CDE and Motif.  (Frankly I wished
Motif wasn't such a memory hog)
[b]    The drag-and-drop and the relative ease-of-use under CDE
[c]    That Samba can make a Linux server appear as an NT Server without any
reconfigs on the Client Side whatsoever
[d]    That Applixware can import MS-Office files to some extent
[e]    The amount of Software that is actually available
[f]    The relatively low cost of implementation

And I have only been showing others such things about Linux over the past two
weeks.

If there was but someway to translate what we can do IRL onto the NG.

Quote:> By pointing out the disadvantages of other offerings, we are doing just
> that.  It's not really being negative... but rather promoting an
> alternative to the status quo (which, as you are most likely aware...
> isn't very good at all).

Quote:> I don't think the product is condemned as much as the Corp. is condemned
> for their Microsoft-like business practices.

Secondly, doesn't their having teamed up imply something about the
commonality of their respective causes?

Quote:>: I'm interested in being able to use content.

>So am I.  So I want info that I can use... save pictures for video games.

[on network access for the masses]

Quote:>The components they currently need far exceed what many impoverished
>households, unfortunately, can afford.

-------------
"cogito ergo sum." --Rene Descartes ("I think, therefore I am")

Brian Mueller [mulder78 at ix dot netcom dot com]

: Hmmm.  As I recall, the PC was deliberately "open".  They goofed
: badly with the proprietary MCA bus, and they paid for it.

Yup.  Despite that fact, I heard that the MCA bus was indeed
extremely fast... maybye it'll be open someday.

: I wish I could get OS/2 around here.  It is _all_ MS in my area :(

The only place I have ever seen OS/2 where I am (Phoenix, AZ), is
at CompUSA, and the boxes are covered with dust, which is sad.
:~(

: >bloated).  I still prefer the lean, speedy text based Lynx.

: Yah, that's why I use lynx as well - I occasionally fire up
: netscrape in AIX, in a big-time RS/6000.  It bogs the hell
: out of anything less.  Even on the RS, though, I normally
: use lynx :)

A friend of mine who works for a Kiosk company here in AZ called
First Wave Inc. has access to a PPC with AIX on it (I didn't know
AIX ran on PPC!) that was given to them by Apple.  Too bad they
are all Mackies down there... UNIX is the furthest thing from
their skills.  :|

: Heh.  AIX tires to bury the CLI, with that nice CDE (I really _do_
: like it, though I am a CLI fanatic).  The CLI is still there and
: fully functional when I want it.  There's the difference from NT.

Exactly my opinion as well.  CDE does indeed look nice... what sort
of memory requirements does it have?... I have been told it's about
the same as fvwm, concerning mem usage.

[useful lynx viewer info gpm'd and snipped :)]

: I have only one complaint regarding lynx.  It's beginning to bloat.
: 2.7.1 chokes on my 386dx/33 on fast (more than 10k/sec.) transfers
: while parsing what comes through.  The result is horrible, slower
: than 1k/sec. at times.  2.6 bogged a little but nowhere near as badly.

What's funny, that you can run a UNIX-like on that kind of
hardware... Wintards just don't understand why that fact is
so important... efficiency just escapes them, I guess.

: >These stupid 'companies' are popping up all over now, thanx to the
: >'infermashun Sooperhiway'.  See why I avoid to web?  ;)

: My favourite low-traffic ng's are swamped by these *s.
: Is there any effective way to kick back at 'em?
: I would like to, very much.

Well, my ISP has been kind enough to provide a spamfilter script
which we can run to configure our procmail.  As for newsgroups,
if you run tin, as I do, the killfile comes in quite handy.  ;)

: Actually, now that I think further on it, "simulation" needs a qualifier
: of some sort.  I'd say, "sensory simulation", but that's too close to
: "sensory stimulation" and would easily be confused.  Any ideas?

I got it!  We have 'PPP'... why not have 'SSS'?...

Sensory Simulation and Stimulation!  kEwL!  :)
--

<< UNIX >> Because everything else, is just a pathetic toy.
NOTE:  Please redirect all SPAM, TROLLS, and FLAMES to /dev/toilet1
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Quote:>: What is an example of Microshit-like practice from Netscape?
>Oh, just their taking open standards, and then trying to make them
>proprietary, etc.  Microsoft, unless I am mistaken, tried to do this
>with Java.  Netscape, I believe, has tried to do this with HTML.

Quote:>I like companies like SUN... people who actually do support open
>hardware/software standards.  SUN's hardware can be cloned, and
>so can a great deal of their software, from what I have been told.
>: >I use Netscape when I must,
>: >but I must say, I would rather use Lynx any day.
>: [sarcasm]Ah yes, no graphics, no Java,  very little fromatting
>: capability, etc. Yep, Lynx is really a state-of-the-art browser.
>: [sarcasm off]

Quote:>Brian, what are you most interested in... information or pretty pictures?
>I want information... I want documentation... and I don't want to wait
>25 seconds for a stupid banner to load (ISDN, I will be with thee soon!).
>Once I have that info, then >>I<< can format it however I damn well please.
>With Lynx, I get what I want... info.  With Internet Exploder, or
>Nutscrape Complicator, I have to wait for elements to load up
>that I don't need [1].
>I do use Netscape when I am looking at a page for the first time... after
>that, I use Lynx, unless the page does actually have some graphics I want
>to see [2].

I can see all the cutesy piccies I want by selecting the inlines
and spawning off zgv on them.  Not that I bother most of the time.

Quote:>: >Netscape doesn't care about Linux... they care about what Microsoft, Sun,
>: >IBM, and other corp.s care about... money!
>: What do you expect them to care about?
>I merely refuted the previous statement, Brian, which suggested that
>Netscape ported their software to Linux because 'they care'.

Quote:>: Ultimately, though, computer technology such as the Netscape browser
>: and the personal computer/network computer can potentially be greatly
>: empowering to  people. Bringing information access to the people....
>Great... just what the internet needs... more fscking idiots who are more
>interested in whacking off to web *, then they are in using their
>computer for something useful [3] (pardon my French).

Quote:>[3] The type of people who use such *in terms, like *space[4],
>    virtual reality[5], information superhighway[6], and who think
>    Windows is a technical marvel.

Quote:>[5] This term is still used, because nothing better to describe it
>    has been concocted.

Quote:>[6] Don't even get me started on how fscking stupid this term is.