Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Phil Hu » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00





Quote:> >.but it may be
> >the only way to control Microsoft's monopoly (IMO).  We believe that the
> >normal "checks and balances" that exist are no longer effective when faced
> >with competing against Microsoft.  I think many here believed that if
> >companies could effectively compete with Microsoft as you describe, that
> >they wouldn't want the DOJ to interfere...but we believe that effective
> >competition is no longer viable wrt Microsoft.  In other words, we want
> >that "certain level of saftey" because we don't believe the market can
> >provide it any longer.

> The market works. Look at Linux. Its gone from a geek toy to a
> contender in a few short years. If competition isn't possible how was
> that possible?

I think part of the reason for this is that Linux's Open Source paradigm
works in a different way to ordinary commercial software development.
If someone had said to me 6 years ago that an Open Sourse operating
system, developed by thousands of people in their spare time, was
going to be one of the most important and technically proficient OSes
around, I wouldn't have believed them.

I think something new and different is happening with Linux right
now, and it is part of the major paradigm shift that is about to
happen regarding copyright and intellectual property.

--
Phil Hunt
"Dreaming something won't make it happen,
but not dreaming something will make it not happen"

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by BladeRunne » Mon, 07 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific sense
of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke dope,
f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
business*. Then I actually had to earn a living, raise children and pay for
these computer toys myself...well...its a diff story now. NT works for the
average business guy, does exactly what he wants done the way he wants it
done at a reasonable price. I make a decent living unsnarling the snarls
these wannabe administrators cause and everybodies happy...go ahead and use
your Linux...* about Bill being the richest guy in the world and leave
the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

BladeRunner
MCP
(and proud of it)




>> >.but it may be
>> >the only way to control Microsoft's monopoly (IMO).  We believe that the
>> >normal "checks and balances" that exist are no longer effective when
faced
>> >with competing against Microsoft.  I think many here believed that if
>> >companies could effectively compete with Microsoft as you describe, that
>> >they wouldn't want the DOJ to interfere...but we believe that effective
>> >competition is no longer viable wrt Microsoft.  In other words, we want
>> >that "certain level of saftey" because we don't believe the market can
>> >provide it any longer.

>> The market works. Look at Linux. Its gone from a geek toy to a
>> contender in a few short years. If competition isn't possible how was
>> that possible?

>I think part of the reason for this is that Linux's Open Source paradigm
>works in a different way to ordinary commercial software development.
>If someone had said to me 6 years ago that an Open Sourse operating
>system, developed by thousands of people in their spare time, was
>going to be one of the most important and technically proficient OSes
>around, I wouldn't have believed them.

>I think something new and different is happening with Linux right
>now, and it is part of the major paradigm shift that is about to
>happen regarding copyright and intellectual property.

>--
>Phil Hunt
>"Dreaming something won't make it happen,
>but not dreaming something will make it not happen"


 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Bobby D. Bryan » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00



> [...]
> I think something new and different is happening with Linux right
> now, and it is part of the major paradigm shift that is about to
> happen regarding copyright and intellectual property.

Everywhere except in the USA, where the Congress has it's own paradigm for how
copyright and IP should work...

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by BR » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00



> Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific sense
> of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke dope,
> f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
> business*. Then I actually had to earn a living, raise children and pay for
> these computer toys myself...well...its a diff story now. NT works for the
> average business guy, does exactly what he wants done the way he wants it
> done at a reasonable price. I make a decent living unsnarling the snarls
> these wannabe administrators cause and everybodies happy...go ahead and use
> your Linux...* about Bill being the richest guy in the world and leave
> the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

> BladeRunner
> MCP
> (and proud of it)
><snip>

Now what's that saying again?
The ones the gods wish to destroy, They first make proud.

P.S. If you ever need a job, Blade. You know were to find us.

--
************************************
"the internet interprets microsoft
 as damage and routes around it"
{Anonymous}
http://www.veryComputer.com/
barry/macnelly/1998/jul05.jpg
************************************

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Joel Ston » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00



> Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific sense
> of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke dope,
> f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
> business*. Then I actually had to earn a living, raise children and pay for
> these computer toys myself...well...its a diff story now. NT works for the
> average business guy, does exactly what he wants done the way he wants it
> done at a reasonable price. I make a decent living unsnarling the snarls
> these wannabe administrators cause and everybodies happy...go ahead and use
> your Linux...* about Bill being the richest guy in the world and leave
> the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

Huh?

Is it just me, or does this guy's rant make no sense at all?

He claims he was once "a linux guy", but not a "linux guy", actually something
totally unrelated.... hmmm..

Then he goes on to explain that in order to make a living, he has to futz
around with microsoft pee cees....

odd...

Just for the record I'm a well paid Linux administrator -

(BTW there are MCSEs all around me, and they don't make very good money)

js

  jjs.vcf
< 1K Download
 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by David M. Co » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00




Quote:>Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific sense
>of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke dope,
>f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
>business*.

But now you're just a pompous ass?

Dave Cook

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by BladeRunne » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00


Ok...Ill put it in single syllable words for you non-graphical
types....Linux is the equivalent of the flower children of the 60's....the
love-dove-everythings-perfect if them big mean MS/ NT people will just leave
us alone *whimper, whimper,  whine, whine*  Were out here making a living
off the networking world...we do NOT have time to futz around with 2nd rate
freeware systems that might or might NOT be supported in 90 days. Is THATa
plain enough  *rant* for you???

BladeRunner



>> Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific
sense
>> of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke
dope,
>> f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
>> business*. Then I actually had to earn a living, raise children and pay
for
>> these computer toys myself...well...its a diff story now. NT works for
the
>> average business guy, does exactly what he wants done the way he wants it
>> done at a reasonable price. I make a decent living unsnarling the snarls
>> these wannabe administrators cause and everybodies happy...go ahead and
use
>> your Linux...* about Bill being the richest guy in the world and
leave
>> the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

>Huh?

>Is it just me, or does this guy's rant make no sense at all?

>He claims he was once "a linux guy", but not a "linux guy", actually
something
>totally unrelated.... hmmm..

>Then he goes on to explain that in order to make a living, he has to futz
>around with microsoft pee cees....

>odd...

>Just for the record I'm a well paid Linux administrator -

>(BTW there are MCSEs all around me, and they don't make very good money)

>js

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by John Winte » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00




>Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific sense
>of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke dope,
>f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
>business*.

I'm a Linux guy - I don't do any of those things.  I think your idea of
the average Linux user is a bit off-beam.

Quote:>Then I actually had to earn a living, raise children and pay for
>these computer toys myself...

Yup, I do all those things.

Quote:>well...its a diff story now. NT works for the
>average business guy, does exactly what he wants done the way he wants it
>done at a reasonable price.

IME experience it doesn't do any of those things, and certainly not at
a reasonable price.  All the sites I know which use NT spend vast amounts
of time pleading, cajoling, cursing, and bribing NT to try to persuade it
to do what they want.  The usual reaction when they get a Linux server
running alongside is one of gobsmacked disbelief that a system will just
sit there doing its job for month after month without requiring daily goat
sacrifices and hours of TLC.

Quote:>I make a decent living unsnarling the snarls
>these wannabe administrators cause and everybodies happy...go ahead and use
>your Linux...

Oh certainly, you can make big money sorting out the problems that NT
causes, it's just that some people like to do a good job as well as
making money.

Quote:>* about Bill being the richest guy in the world

Who's *ing about him being rich?  I've no problem with him having
vast pots of money (there's a limit to how much you can spend anyway).
I just wish Microsoft put a little more effort into meeting the needs of
their customers, instead of treating it as an unavoidable side issue
in their task of making as much money as ever they possibly can.

Quote:>and leave the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

Dream on.  Anyone who thinks wet-nursing NT systems is a "real admin job"
has an awful lot to learn.

HTH
John

(I wonder, have I just been trolled?)
--
John Winters.  Wallingford, Oxon, England.

The Linux Emporium - a source for Linux CDs in the UK
See <http://www.veryComputer.com/;

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Loren Petri » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00




>Years and years ago i was a *Linux* guy myself...not in the specific sense
>of the OS Linux, but in the sense of *Lets go live on a commune, smoke dope,
>f *ck all day and * about the evils of big bad american corporate
>business*.

        Then why not do that?

        Also, it would be difficult to install and learn Linux if one was
stoned on pot -- I'm a sort of almost-Linux guy (I have the MacOS and the
BeOS), and I have interests other than being drugged all day.

 Then I actually had to earn a living, raise children and pay for

Quote:>these computer toys myself...well...its a diff story now.

        And you learned how to suck up to the boss, right?

        My own perspective on corporatism is that one ought to think of
the most civilized, least painful way to get a job done -- one's job is to
produce, not to get hazed. And one ought to be helpful to others and not
personally greedy, as Linus Torvalds has been.

 NT works for the

Quote:>average business guy, does exactly what he wants done the way he wants it
>done at a reasonable price.

        If a lot of unnecessary expense is a "reasonable price". The
*only* intrinsic feature (as opposed to an app-compatibility) feature
than WindozeNT has that Linux doesn't would seem to be a better GUI.

 I make a decent living unsnarling the snarls

Quote:>these wannabe administrators cause and everybodies happy...go ahead and use
>your Linux...

        And waste a heck of a lot less time. I'm not a Linux user, but I
do use such nice OSes as the MacOS and the BeOS -- I don't have to worry
about what kind of sound card I have, for example.

* about Bill being the richest guy in the world and leave

Quote:>the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

        Like who's doing that? If he was as magnanimous and fair and
honorable as Steve Wozniak has been, he would not be so disliked.
--
Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh

My home page: http://www.veryComputer.com/
 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Loren Petri » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00




>Ok...Ill put it in single syllable words for you non-graphical
>types....Linux is the equivalent of the flower children of the 60's....

        What bovine excrement.

        Linux is used in a lot of non-flower-child stuff.

the

Quote:>love-dove-everythings-perfect if them big mean MS/ NT people will just leave
>us alone *whimper, whimper,  whine, whine*

        Grow up. Are liars and cheaters supposed to get away with their
lying and cheating?

 Were out here making a living

Quote:>off the networking world...

        As are many Linuxers.

we do NOT have time to futz around with 2nd rate

Quote:>freeware systems that might or might NOT be supported in 90 days.

        However, those with enough longevity, like Linux and a lot of GNU
stuff, suggest an extrapolation of their being supported beyond 90 days.

 Is THATa

Quote:>plain enough  *rant* for you???

        So what?

--
Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh

My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Charles Bould » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00




>Ok...Ill put it in single syllable words for you non-graphical
>types....Linux is the equivalent of the flower children of the 60's....the
>love-dove-everythings-perfect if them big mean MS/ NT people will just leave
>us alone *whimper, whimper,  whine, whine*  Were out here making a living
>off the networking world...we do NOT have time to futz around with 2nd rate
>freeware systems that might or might NOT be supported in 90 days. Is THATa
>plain enough  *rant* for you???

What nonsense. Or to put it as kindly as I can, you are seriously mistaken
and can't really have even TRIED Linux, or you would know better.

Linux is something new, entirely new. I know it sounds like hype (and
usually is) when people talk about paradigm shifts, but this one is for
real. I am NOT a Linux expert, more like a complete novice, but Linux has
the wonderful characteristic that it WORKS. Right out of the box, even on
PowerPC hardware where it is far less mature than on Intel machines. This
is the aspect of the paradigm shift that makes it real: The claims made
about Linux are, like a good scientific theory, falsifiable. So far, the
claims seem to stand up to scrutiny.

Linux is certainly not threatened by Win/NT! If anything, the jeopardy is
the other way around. I also live in the real world and support children,
make house payments, etc, and I suggest that a smart thing to do if you
are in the computer bizz is to get that old PC, the one that doesn't have
the hardware that Billy requires to run the "latest" Windoze version, and
install Linux and start learning. It is a good career move.

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Brian Wheel » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00




Quote:> Ok...Ill put it in single syllable words for you non-graphical
> types....Linux is the equivalent of the flower children of the 60's....the
> love-dove-everythings-perfect if them big mean MS/ NT people will just leave
> us alone *whimper, whimper,  whine, whine*  Were out here making a living
> off the networking world...we do NOT have time to futz around with 2nd rate
> freeware systems that might or might NOT be supported in 90 days. Is THATa
> plain enough  *rant* for you???

        Yup, it clears things right up:  you're stupid...or at least
very ill informed.
        1) most of us don't give a shit about how much money Gates has.
        2) MS products suck*, plain and simple.  They are not the utopia
they are sold as.
        3) you don't have to work with inferior MS products to earn a
comfortable living.  I 'make a living off the networking world' and I don't
have nearly the number of headaches as my MS using peers.
        4) freeware is supported far more completely than MS does.  How many
times have you called MS to report a problem and they refuse to acknowledge
its existance?  Great support.
        5) freeware 2nd rate?  you've got to be a troll.

Too bad you're so ignorant.  Must be the *.
Brian Wheeler

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Jason Cliffor » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00



> Ok...Ill put it in single syllable words for you non-graphical
> types....Linux is the equivalent of the flower children of the 60's....the
> love-dove-everythings-perfect if them big mean MS/ NT people will just leave
> us alone *whimper, whimper,  whine, whine*  Were out here making a living
> off the networking world...we do NOT have time to futz around with 2nd rate
> freeware systems that might or might NOT be supported in 90 days. Is THATa
> plain enough  *rant* for you???

Plain enough to see tha you are somewhat ignorant of reality.

Linux is now being backed by BIG corporates including Intel, Sun and many
others.

There are companies now offering commercial support contracts for Linux.

Mostly however you appear to be under the imperssion that we (the Linux
community) are a bunch of whining whimps. A very bizare statement from
someone who wrote a message such as yours. Most of US are busy buildin
stable and powerful systems which act as servers, gateways and
workstations, while you appear to beliving day to day in the hope that one
day, Uncle Bill might deilver on a promise and provide a working solution.

Jason Clifford
Definite Linux Systems
http://definite.ukpost.com/

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Laurie Brow » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00


[SNIP]

Quote:> Linux is certainly not threatened by Win/NT! If anything, the jeopardy is
> the other way around. I also live in the real world and support children,
> make house payments, etc, and I suggest that a smart thing to do if you
> are in the computer bizz is to get that old PC, the one that doesn't have
> the hardware that Billy requires to run the "latest" Windoze version, and
> install Linux and start learning. It is a good career move.

Exactly! Well said!

I've been in this industry for 25 years, and have worked my way up from
operator. Aside from my income as a scumbag contractor, I own half of a
hotel in Suffolk. I've put PCs in there for the first time ever, running
NT4 WorkStation, and I know I need more than the peer-to-peer network I
currently have. Am I looking at NT Server, a product I'm familiar and
comfortable with? A product for which I know there are web proxies, mail
daemons, firewalls etc? No, I'm using an old 486 DX4-120 with 32meg
running [SuSE] Linux. Is there a learning curve involved? Oh yes, and
how! But it's worth it to me, just to get away from the *MS sell for
nearly a grand, which requires enough hardware to run a space shuttle,
and which is unreliable, bloated and, frankly, crap. I'm a Linux newbie,
but I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think it was worth it.

Either the idiot flaming here is a troll, or he needs to wake up and
smell the coffee.

Cheers, Laurie.

 
 
 

Linux paradigm Shift (was: Should computer science classes be mandatory in universities?)

Post by Steve Cart » Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:00:00


: ...we do NOT have time to futz around with 2nd rate freeware systems
: that might or might NOT be supported in 90 days...

1) Futz ing

Futzing is what you do when there is a shortage of information like, for
instance, when you don't have access to the person who wrote the code, or
the support line is busy, or the manuals are very glossy and full of
screen shots but deperately lacking, or there are undocumented 'features'
used to give a company a commercial edge... Linux will let you futz, but
for the outlay of an (admittedly substantial) amount of time, you can
learn the whole of linux from the ground up and there is no aspect which
is outside of your power to correct or customize to your needs.

2) No support in 90 days.

Windows 98 failing to get to 1999?... You are lucky to get much over a
year out of wintel nowadays.  The _only_ way to stop support for linux is
to cancel the internet accounts of millions of users. Linux will go on and
on ticking away on the same box for as long as you leave it.  There is no
commercial motive to coerce you to upgrade your H/W and S/W... as an aside
I am concerned that this day will come, I can feel a bandwagon rumbling
down the trail... if this paradiggum shift is really happening, it's a
really crucial time for everyone's favourite penguin...

I wonder whether you have ever attended a computer _science_ (as distinct
from Information Technology etc) course... It's mind boggling to see the
amount of redundancy and inefficiency in the modern office.  Had linux
broken into the mainstream in 1993, then most modern offices would have
486s as fileservers, 386s as network routing h/w and even workstations,
and the occasional pentium for proper number crunching.  They would have
hardly bought a PC in 5 years.

Of course the H/W people don't want this scenario, but that's OK cos it
didn't happen...

: >> * about Bill being the richest guy in the world...

As a separate issue, I _do_ have a problem with a single guy who is richer
than many of the countries on the planet, who doesn't have the same
infrastructure overheads as those countries, and who has got a finger in
every pie in every household across the civilised world.

: >> ... and leave the real day to day admin jobs to guys like me ok?

Oh, _admin_ why didn't you say so!  Never mind, I thought I was addressing
one of the cognoscenti...

--
Spam Highlights #11 in a series:
Seems like a very worthwhile investment gamble to me.

PS. Thanks to MS Word 97 for the speeling of 'cognoscenti' (or rather
INSO corporation who actually wrote CorrectSpell (TM))

 
 
 

1. This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?


says...

I admire your passion, Chris..

The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
would be:

* It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
as probably very steep

* It doesn't support plug-and-play.  If your hardware doesn't have Linux
drivers, it don't play..

* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
there are for Wintel.  Can I get MS Office for Linux?  Can I get
Photoshop for Linux?  Can I get QuarkXpress for Linux? etc.. a big turn
off for me.

--
Reuben King
Email: "reuben at texas dot net" (in plain english to foil spam-bots.
grrr!)

2. Mpeg player uploaded to sunsite--twice speed of mpeg_play.

3. cannot kill -9 or fuser a hung process

4. I am with the following error, when i am running lilo...

5. glibc compiling error with rpcgen and C preprocessor

6. Am I touchy? Or am I right?

7. Am I seeing IPv5, or am I hallucinating?

8. I am buying an Ultra 5 but am lost in part numbers ....

9. I am in text mode, what browser am I running....

10. I am si**y am I?

11. I want to become RHCE -- i am newbie, should i take the RHCE eLearning classes ?