Very Computer

by **Reuben Ki** » Wed, 03 Sep 1997 04:00:00

says...

Quote:> I feel so revolted about the clone issue that the money I had saved to
> possibly buying a new PowerPC might end up on an X86 box specially
> designed to be totally "non Wintel"---Cyrix 686MX, Via VP2 chipset,
> OpenLinux. It's going to be my protest box. Not a single Intel
> major chip, not even a chipset. AMDs don't cut it because I don't
> like the Windows logo on those chips (trivial reason isn't it).
> No MS code either, and because OS/2 still has residual code, it ain't
> going there either.

> The whole events in the last August sickens me deeply about Apple.
> Apple slept with the enemy, sold its crown jewels, and stabbed allies
> in the back. Like IBM, Apple sold out.

> Think of it, if Apple charges exorbitantly for CHRP
> Rhapsody, how much do you expect it to charge for the PC version?

> Between IBM's indifference, Job's hubris, and Gate's greed, I feel
> more and more drawn to the Open community, where I feel the last great
> stand of computing independence will be made. Especially with Linux,
> where its fate is totally on the hands of its users and volunteers,
> and not from some *.

I admire your passion, Chris..

The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
would be:

* It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
as probably very steep

* It doesn't support plug-and-play. If your hardware doesn't have Linux
drivers, it don't play..

* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
there are for Wintel. Can I get MS Office for Linux? Can I get
Photoshop for Linux? Can I get QuarkXpress for Linux? etc.. a big turn
off for me.

Quote:
> Rgds,

> Chris

> >Brgds,
> >--
> >TaiQ in HKG

--
Reuben King
Email: "reuben at texas dot net" (in plain english to foil spam-bots.
grrr!)

by **Frank Ea** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

>* It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
>as probably very steep

Not a lot more than DOS or NT for many tasks. And you get more for
your effort.

Quote:>* It doesn't support plug-and-play. If your hardware doesn't have Linux
>drivers, it don't play..

The same could be applied for any OS. If it's not on OS/2 you can't
play, if it's on DOS/Win95 but not NT (Which is QUITE prevalent at one
point!) you can't play. This is really a non-argument; pick hardware
that's relatively standard and you'll be assured of support under most
if not all OSes. And it does support PNP. Just not dynamically yet-
it's just like the DOS driver support for machines that don't have
BIOS config support. For those with the latest BIOSes, PNP comes to
all OSes- that simple.

Quote:>* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
>there are for Wintel. Can I get MS Office for Linux? Can I get
>Photoshop for Linux? Can I get QuarkXpress for Linux? etc.. a big turn
>off for me.

Actually, you'd be surprised- but if you're not up on the Linux/Unix
community, you'll not see as much software as you would otherwise.
Office I'd pass on- Office97 is nothing but bloated bells and whistles
and no real substance to speak of. I'd rather have NeXS and
Wordperfect (Which do the same things as Excel and Word and then some)
or use ApplixWare or StarOffice for those tasks. For presentations,
I'd use ApplixWare and GIMP (Which does a lot of things Photoshop does
and a lot of things that it doesn't do). If you're needing DTP,
there's LyX and*that will get equal results. And if you're
doing light DTP, Wordperfect 7.0 does a bang-up job of it. Again,
it's a matter of whether or not you're up on the trends of the Linux
community by using it or knowing someone who is- if either are the
case, you know that the above things you state are more rumor than
fact.

--
Frank C. Earl
Earl Consulting Services
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pursuant to USC 47, there is a $500 per incident charge for each and
every piece of Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE) sent to this or any
of my other addresses. Sending UCE's to any of my addresses implys
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place in the address to reply.)

by **Andrew Cos** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:15:40 -0500,

>The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
>would be:
>* It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
>as probably very steep

Very. But I managed it, so anyone can :)

Quote:>* It doesn't support plug-and-play. If your hardware doesn't have Linux
>drivers, it don't play..

It does. But not automatically - there's setup involved.

However, just about all non plug-and-pray hardware _is_ supported.
It's the nature of the beast. Linux programmers want to make their
latest toys work, so they do make them work and share the solutions
with everybody else.

Quote:>* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
>there are for Wintel. Can I get MS Office for Linux? Can I get
>Photoshop for Linux? Can I get QuarkXpress for Linux? etc.. a big turn
>off for me.

You can often get equivalent or _better_ free applications.
You have to look for them and set them up, and learn new ways of doing
things (though there are a number of workalikes as well - finding out which
is which can be the hard part).

It was once true that there were few applications for Linux, that it was
primarily a hacker's OS, but that's no longer the case at all. What
persists is a myth, nothing more.

Basically, Linux (and unix in general) takes effort.
The effort is usually well rewarded with:

Stability - Linux doesn't throw fits at random unless YOU*it up.
(And I have on occasion ;)

Flexibility - It doesn't assume things for you and refuse to let you
change them. I found setting up a serial multiport card
under Windows 4 an experience and a half...

Price - Free. Linux and the vast majority of its applications. You
don't shell out gobs of cash for some buggy old thing that looks
nice but doesn't function properly.

On-line support - The internet: free, fast, and knowledgeable. Corporate
"help" desks don't compare, even when they're trying to
be useful. With Linux, you have direct access through
the internet to many thousands of experienced, knowledgeable
people.

Pride - I set this thing up myself and to hell with Mr. Bill and his minions.

Development - If you're a programmer, you have all your tools included, free.

And so on.

Go ahead, give it a look... :)

by **Steve Madi** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

: The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
: would be:

: * It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
: as probably very steep

[etc snipped]

Yes, the Unix learning curve makes for a very steep 'hill'. The
interesting thing about hills, though, is that while the steeper
ones are harder to climb, they can bring you to great heights much
faster than a gentle slope.
--

by **Reuben Ki** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

[This followup was posted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy and a copy was sent to
the cited author.]

says...

> : The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
> : would be:

> : * It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
> : as probably very steep

> [etc snipped]

> Yes, the Unix learning curve makes for a very steep 'hill'. The
> interesting thing about hills, though, is that while the steeper
> ones are harder to climb, they can bring you to great heights much
> faster than a gentle slope.

Well, perhaps some day in the near future I'll find enough spare cycles
to start dabbling a little more seriously with Linux than I have in the
past.. Maybe I might just fall in love with it and stop using NT! :-)

I've seen a wide plethora of books on Linux.. would you (or anyone) have
any suggestions on a good one to get my feet wet? I saw "The complete
Linux Kit" on Amazon.com boasting it had 'everything I needed to get up
and running with Linux".. ??

--
Reuben King
To respond via email: Remove "REMOVETHIS" from above email
or: "reuben[at]texas[dot]net" (Clealy sir, spam-bots suck.)

by **John Jense** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

: I've seen a wide plethora of books on Linux.. would you (or anyone) have
: any suggestions on a good one to get my feet wet? I saw "The complete
: Linux Kit" on Amazon.com boasting it had 'everything I needed to get up
: and running with Linux".. ??

I'd recommend one of the O'Reilly books, and don't bother with
books-with-cds, they're all out of date. You can get the latest CDs from
www.cheapbytes.com, I would recommend the Debian distribution ($3.99, or
$8.99 with 5 bucks going to Debian). Debian is a non-profit organizaion
doing a Linux distribution, see www.debian.org for more info.

Linux is a hair shirt of an OS, but if you can wear it more power to you.

John

by **M. Kilgor** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

Quote:
> Yes, the Unix learning curve makes for a very steep 'hill'. The
> interesting thing about hills, though, is that while the steeper
> ones are harder to climb, they can bring you to great heights much
> faster than a gentle slope.
> --

Then again, you could break your neck going down the other side!

by **trickst** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

>[This followup was posted to comp.sys.mac.advocacy and a copy was sent to
>the cited author.]

>says...

>> : The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
>> : would be:

>> : * It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
>> : as probably very steep

>> [etc snipped]

>> Yes, the Unix learning curve makes for a very steep 'hill'. The
>> interesting thing about hills, though, is that while the steeper
>> ones are harder to climb, they can bring you to great heights much
>> faster than a gentle slope.

>Well, perhaps some day in the near future I'll find enough spare cycles
>to start dabbling a little more seriously with Linux than I have in the
>past.. Maybe I might just fall in love with it and stop using NT! :-)

>I've seen a wide plethora of books on Linux.. would you (or anyone) have
>any suggestions on a good one to get my feet wet? I saw "The complete
>Linux Kit" on Amazon.com boasting it had 'everything I needed to get up
>and running with Linux".. ??

I've bought a few of the Linux books out there, although none in the past six
months or so that are general-purpose. The book that I consider the most
'accessable' is "Linux Secrets" by the publisher of the "dummies" series.
Just my vote. I've stopped needing Linux-specific books. Now my
paycheck just gets converted into O'reilly books twice a month. Part of the
beauty of Linux is that for a beginner, you can go into many used bookstores
and find an early 90's book on Unix for beginners. And the book isn't
composed of 40% screen shots showing how to click the "OK" box like the books
for Microsoft products (which go out of date aprox. every six months, besides)
The only "Microsoft" book that I'd really like to find at this point would be
one for the Microsoft version of Xenix from before SCO, since as a historical
project I'm presently trying to bring up an ancient Altos box. (8086-based,
with 512K of RAM, supports 5 simultaneous users, 1982 vintage)

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>--
>Reuben King
>To respond via email: Remove "REMOVETHIS" from above email
>or: "reuben[at]texas[dot]net" (Clealy sir, spam-bots suck.)

by **Thomas Ha** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

<snip>

Quote:
>> Between IBM's indifference, Job's hubris, and Gate's greed, I feel
>> more and more drawn to the Open community, where I feel the last great
>> stand of computing independence will be made. Especially with Linux,
>> where its fate is totally on the hands of its users and volunteers,
>> and not from some *.

America was built on salesmanship and entrpreneurial spirit. It's not
Gates' fault that no-one else in the computer industry still has it.
Techies are great but; in computing as in every other area of business
life, nothing at all happens until somebody sells something.....

Quote:
<snip>

>* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
>there are for Wintel. Can I get MS Office for Linux?

You can get Applixware for Linux, from www.redhat.com. It's pretty
good.

Tony

by **Arthur Jeriji** » Thu, 04 Sep 1997 04:00:00

>I feel so revolted about the clone issue that the money I had saved to
>possibly buying a new PowerPC might end up on an X86 box specially
>designed to be totally "non Wintel"---Cyrix 686MX, Via VP2 chipset,
>OpenLinux. It's going to be my protest box. Not a single Intel
>major chip, not even a chipset. AMDs don't cut it because I don't
>like the Windows logo on those chips (trivial reason isn't it).
>No MS code either, and because OS/2 still has residual code, it ain't
>going there either.

>The whole events in the last August sickens me deeply about Apple.
>Apple slept with the enemy, sold its crown jewels, and stabbed allies
>in the back. Like IBM, Apple sold out.

>Think of it, if Apple charges exorbitantly for CHRP
>Rhapsody, how much do you expect it to charge for the PC version?

>Between IBM's indifference, Job's hubris, and Gate's greed, I feel
>more and more drawn to the Open community, where I feel the last great
>stand of computing independence will be made. Especially with Linux,
>where its fate is totally on the hands of its users and volunteers,
>and not from some *.

Agreed! I was thinking about getting a second computer some time in
1998-1999 which would be Power-PC based and running the latest versions
of MacOS and MkLinux. My arguments have been, "Apple is a good company
and the PowerPC chip is much more well-thought-out than the x86."
Now, I'm not so sure I want to get such a machine.

To all computer users again: SUPPORT YOUR SMALLER COMPANIES! Don't let
the big boys & girls try to bully you into thinking that their hardware
is somehow superior just because "everybody buys them". Instead of
getting Intel, get AMD or Cyrix! Instead of getting Adaptec, get
BusLogic! etc, etc...

--Arthur

by **roo** » Fri, 05 Sep 1997 04:00:00

>says...
>> I feel so revolted about the clone issue that the money I had saved to
>> possibly buying a new PowerPC might end up on an X86 box specially
>> designed to be totally "non Wintel"---Cyrix 686MX, Via VP2 chipset,
>> OpenLinux. It's going to be my protest box. Not a single Intel
>> major chip, not even a chipset. AMDs don't cut it because I don't
>> like the Windows logo on those chips (trivial reason isn't it).
>> No MS code either, and because OS/2 still has residual code, it ain't
>> going there either.

>> The whole events in the last August sickens me deeply about Apple.
>> Apple slept with the enemy, sold its crown jewels, and stabbed allies
>> in the back. Like IBM, Apple sold out.

>> Think of it, if Apple charges exorbitantly for CHRP
>> Rhapsody, how much do you expect it to charge for the PC version?

>> Between IBM's indifference, Job's hubris, and Gate's greed, I feel
>> more and more drawn to the Open community, where I feel the last great
>> stand of computing independence will be made. Especially with Linux,
>> where its fate is totally on the hands of its users and volunteers,
>> and not from some *.

>I admire your passion, Chris..

>The only issues which have kept myself from looking seriously at Linux
>would be:

>* It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
>as probably very steep

Not really.

Quote:
>* It doesn't support plug-and-play. If your hardware doesn't have Linux
>drivers, it don't play..

Hey Reuben - if your hardware doesn't have Windows 95 drivers, it
doesn't play either!!!!!!

Quote:
>* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
>there are for Wintel. Can I get MS Office for Linux? Can I get
>Photoshop for Linux? Can I get QuarkXpress for Linux? etc.. a big turn
>off for me.

StarOffice ApplixWare The Gimp etc. It's there. Just look.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>> Rgds,

>> Chris

>> >Brgds,
>> >--
>> >TaiQ in HKG

>--
>Reuben King
>Email: "reuben at texas dot net" (in plain english to foil spam-bots.
>grrr!)

by **Roger Iv** » Fri, 05 Sep 1997 04:00:00

>>Er, I've yet to come across any normal decent peripheral of which the
>>manufacturer actually intended on selling that didn't have drivers for
>>Win95... Can you name any?

>Original IBM PC cassette tape drives?

Well, if you're gonna invoke tape drives you don't even have to go that
far back.

I've got a bunch of old SCSI tape drives* around from various
systems (QIC drives from old Apollo workstations, TK50 drives from
VAXstations, etc. etc.) which I had intended to use to backup my
wife's Win95 box. Imagine my shock to discover that Win95 has no
native support for SCSI tape drives!

I don't suppose anyone out there knows of a generic Win95 SCSI tape
driver available for download? For the moment I'm working on building
a Linux box from here old PC so that I can get to it via Samba and
back the stupid thing up to tape...
--
Roger Ivie
Design Analysis Associates
75 West 100 South
Logan, UT 84321

phoneto:(801)753-2212

by **Brian Muell** » Fri, 05 Sep 1997 04:00:00

>>* It's Unix and the learning curve to start getting productive strikes me
>>as probably very steep

>Very. But I managed it, so anyone can :)

It shouldn't be that difficult. Linux would be more popular if it were
easier to set up and use. It's a UNIX compatible, not UNIX.

Quote:
>>* It doesn't support plug-and-play. If your hardware doesn't have Linux
>>drivers, it don't play..

>It does. But not automatically - there's setup involved.

My PNP sound card is not supported by OSS Free.

Quote:
>However, just about all non plug-and-pray hardware _is_ supported.

Well, it should support all plug and play hardware. The drivers should
be loaded automatically, similarly to the way Win 95 does it. If it
were as good as other OSs, it would. I do like Linux, but I'm not a
zealot who sees it as a panacea. This is one of the main reasons why
(little PNP support).

Quote:>>* Not nearly the amount of developers out there doing stuff for Linux as
>>there are for Wintel. Can I get MS Office for Linux? Can I get
>>Photoshop for Linux? Can I get QuarkXpress for Linux? etc.. a big turn
>>off for me.

>You can often get equivalent or _better_ free applications.

In some cases. However, GIMP doesn't have all the features of
Photoshop, for example. It also has a stupid name (gimp?? that makes
it sound like a 14 year old wrote it. call it "Artiste" or
something!) and is incomatible with Photoshop plug-ins.

Also I have seen no Linux newsreader that can do what Free Agent can
do (get the headers, select what you want, download the bodies, read
offline, all without requiring a local news spool).

Quote:>You have to look for them and set them up, and learn new ways of doing
>things

Oh, like pressing <Ctrl> plus 15,000 other keys just to do a basic
function like searching? Whatever happened to pull-down menus and
mnemonic commands? At least FTE has these things. Once I found FTE, I
never came back to EMACS. *All* Linux applicatins should have as
intuitive an interface as FTE.

Quote:>It was once true that there were few applications for Linux, that it was
>primarily a hacker's OS, but that's no longer the case at all. What
>persists is a myth, nothing more.

I agree here, partially. The stipulation is that the available
programs are not as powerful or as easy to use as "Wintel" apps.

Quote:>Basically, Linux (and unix in general) takes effort.
>The effort is usually well rewarded with:

Well, it should be easier to use. Why can't we have all these benefits
with a more solid and consistent UI? OS/2 did it.
-------------
"cogito*sum." --Rene Descartes ("I think, therefore I am")

by **Joe Ragos** » Fri, 05 Sep 1997 04:00:00

> >>Er, I've yet to come across any normal decent peripheral of which the
> >>manufacturer actually intended on selling that didn't have drivers for
> >>Win95... Can you name any?

> >Original IBM PC cassette tape drives?

> Well, if you're gonna invoke tape drives you don't even have to go that
> far back.

> I've got a bunch of old SCSI tape drives* around from various
> systems (QIC drives from old Apollo workstations, TK50 drives from
> VAXstations, etc. etc.) which I had intended to use to backup my
> wife's Win95 box. Imagine my shock to discover that Win95 has no
> native support for SCSI tape drives!

> I don't suppose anyone out there knows of a generic Win95 SCSI tape
> driver available for download? For the moment I'm working on building
> a Linux box from here old PC so that I can get to it via Samba and
> back the stupid thing up to tape...

Look for Retrospect. Retrospect has been able to back up Win95 or NT to a
tape drive for quite a while when using a Mac as the host computer. I don't
know for sure, but I think the newest version can also use Win95 or WinNT
as the host computer, so it may do the job. Their tape drives support is
pretty good.

It's made by Dantz.

If you can't find anything, I'll be happy to take one of those tape drives
off your hands.

--
Regards,

Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Site
http://www.veryComputer.com/~Ragosta/complmac.htm

by **Reuben Ki** » Fri, 05 Sep 1997 04:00:00

> > >>Er, I've yet to come across any normal decent peripheral of which the
> > >>manufacturer actually intended on selling that didn't have drivers for
> > >>Win95... Can you name any?

> > >Original IBM PC cassette tape drives?

> > Well, if you're gonna invoke tape drives you don't even have to go that
> > far back.

> > I've got a bunch of old SCSI tape drives* around from various
> > systems (QIC drives from old Apollo workstations, TK50 drives from
> > VAXstations, etc. etc.) which I had intended to use to backup my
> > wife's Win95 box. Imagine my shock to discover that Win95 has no
> > native support for SCSI tape drives!

Funny, when I was using Win95 I had Cheyenne Backup backing up just
peachy to my old APS DAT drive... It said on the box it'll do Travan,
QIC, and 'virtually any other' backup medium out..

In NT, it comes right out of the box with a Backup program that works
equally as easy with my old DAT drive..

Yet some more nonsense spread by Macvocates which I must lay to rest..

Quote:> > I don't suppose anyone out there knows of a generic Win95 SCSI tape
> > driver available for download? For the moment I'm working on building
> > a Linux box from here old PC so that I can get to it via Samba and
> > back the stupid thing up to tape...

Go get Cheyenne Backup or Novastor Backup.. Win95 has no drivers built
in for tape drivs because it has no need or facility to use them. Just
like the Mac doesn't have any drivers for tape drives. It's Retrospect
(or other software) which has the drivers.

Quote:> Look for Retrospect. Retrospect has been able to back up Win95 or NT to a
> tape drive for quite a while when using a Mac as the host computer. I don't
> know for sure, but I think the newest version can also use Win95 or WinNT
> as the host computer, so it may do the job. Their tape drives support is
> pretty good.

Joey, Retrospect is a Mac program and Mac only... And it sucks compared
to Cheyenne Arc Serve..

Quote:
> It's made by Dantz.

> If you can't find anything, I'll be happy to take one of those tape drives
> off your hands.

--
Reuben King
To respond via email: Remove "REMOVETHIS" from above email
or: "reuben[at]texas[dot]net" (Clealy sir, spam-bots suck.)

Very Computer

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?

This clone thing...am I stupid, or am I right?