QNX and MS code bloat

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Tracy R. Re » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00



Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

It is absolutely amazing...

POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system, an HTML 3.2 browser, an
embedded web server, an Internet dialer, TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE
1.44M floppy!!!

I think this is a very good example of how crummy MS code is. MS would
require 30 disks to do the same thing and it would still crash. This thing
is fast, efficient, easy to use, and very reliable. QNX seems to be the OS
of choice for extremely critical realtime applications. AND...I am told
they have an educational deal where you can get he OS and development kit
for $50 if you are a student. Hard to beat!

----------
Tracy Reed
http://ultraviolet.org
http://www.linux.org - Escape the Gates of Hell

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Michael Warn » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00



Quote:>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>It is absolutely amazing...

>POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system, an HTML 3.2 browser, an
>embedded web server, an Internet dialer, TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE
>1.44M floppy!!!

>I think this is a very good example of how crummy MS code is.

I think this is a very good example of how the Linux advocate's mind works.
Pick a product which has nothing to do with Linux OR Windows, and conclude
from its existence that MS sucks. Simple, isn't it?

BTW, I doubt you could create a single bootable Linux floppy that does all
this either. So is Linux also "crummy code"? Will Linux users suddenly rush
to QNX?

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by david parso » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00




Quote:>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>It is absolutely amazing...

   The windowing system is, yes.

   I can build a 1.44mb floppy that will do much the same with Linux (if
   I could be bothered to figure out compressed filesystems :-) but it
   would take a lot of work to update MGR and port a modern browser onto
   it.

   (And they do have a k-k00l mouse detection system in it that I'm
   going to have to sit down with a serial snooper to see how it talks
   to various serial vermin.  Having both 95 and QNX doing magical mouse
   detection while Linux does not seems to me to be A Bad Thing that
   should be remedied as soon as I have time to breathe.)

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/ I lust after the windowing system, but it's not
                  \/                  X, and is thus Incompatable :-(

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by david parso » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00





>: I think this is a very good example of how the Linux advocate's mind works.
>: Pick a product which has nothing to do with Linux OR Windows, and conclude
>: from its existence that MS sucks. Simple, isn't it?

>This has to do with both Windows AND Linux. It's easy to use and pretty,
>like windows, but it's POSIX  and has all of the traditional unix tools
>ports to it, like Linux. Yes, it is very simple.

>: BTW, I doubt you could create a single bootable Linux floppy that does all
>: this either. So is Linux also "crummy code"? Will Linux users suddenly rush
>: to QNX?

>Due to the monolithic Linux kernel, it is unlikely that you could get a
>bootable Linux floppy to do this. But it's not far off. You could do it
>in two disks easily. That's not too bad. But how many disks would it take
>to do it with windows? 20+.

   Considering that a full wfw distribution runs 11 disks, and a regular
   windows 3.1 distribution runs 7 disks, I'd suspect that, if you could
   build compressed floppies, you could build a stripped-down install
   disk that would successfully load the windowing system.

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/    A linux kernel corresponding to the QNX install
                  \/  comes in at (2.0.x) about 300k.  That leaves 1100k
                          uncompressed space to work with, or 2mb if you
                         use compression.  If you don't use X, you could
                                             fit a lot of stuff in there.

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Tracy R. Re » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00


: I think this is a very good example of how the Linux advocate's mind works.
: Pick a product which has nothing to do with Linux OR Windows, and conclude
: from its existence that MS sucks. Simple, isn't it?

This has to do with both Windows AND Linux. It's easy to use and pretty,
like windows, but it's POSIX  and has all of the traditional unix tools
ports to it, like Linux. Yes, it is very simple.

: BTW, I doubt you could create a single bootable Linux floppy that does all
: this either. So is Linux also "crummy code"? Will Linux users suddenly rush
: to QNX?

Due to the monolithic Linux kernel, it is unlikely that you could get a
bootable Linux floppy to do this. But it's not far off. You could do it
in two disks easily. That's not too bad. But how many disks would it take
to do it with windows? 20+. It's not necessarily the fact that it fits on
a single disk that makes it great, it's the fact that it fits on a
reasonable number of disks. Although 1 disk is darn impressive.

Linux users won't suddenly rush to QNX for various reasons, but I bet they
do recogize it as a quality OS, worthy of praise.

----------
Tracy Reed
http://ultraviolet.org
http://www.linux.org - Escape the Gates of Hell

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Dan Hildebra » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00






>>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>>It is absolutely amazing...

>   The windowing system is, yes.

>   I can build a 1.44mb floppy that will do much the same with Linux (if
>   I could be bothered to figure out compressed filesystems :-) but it
>   would take a lot of work to update MGR and port a modern browser onto
>   it.

Another part of the trick is to get that functionality in the browser (full
HTML 3.2 with many extensions) in the small memory footprint it occupies.  

Quote:>                 ____
>   david parsons \bi/ I lust after the windowing system, but it's not
>                  \/                  X, and is thus Incompatable :-(

Ahh, but X runs in a window inside Photon for when you need to run an X
app.  :-)
--

http://www.qnx.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8
 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Michael Warn » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00




Quote:>   Considering that a full wfw distribution runs 11 disks, and a regular
>   windows 3.1 distribution runs 7 disks, I'd suspect that, if you could
>   build compressed floppies, you could build a stripped-down install
>   disk that would successfully load the windowing system.

I did see a discussion once of minimal Windows (WFW) setups. The absolute
minumum to get it up (ahem) was well under a meg, if I recall rightly.
 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Matt McLe » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00





>>Due to the monolithic Linux kernel, it is unlikely that you could get a
>>bootable Linux floppy to do this. But it's not far off. You could do it
>>in two disks easily. That's not too bad. But how many disks would it take
>>to do it with windows? 20+.

>   Considering that a full wfw distribution runs 11 disks, and a regular
>   windows 3.1 distribution runs 7 disks, I'd suspect that, if you could
>   build compressed floppies, you could build a stripped-down install
>   disk that would successfully load the windowing system.

I did this several years ago, without compression.

A very basic Windows 3.1 system, on a single floppy.  Slow as *y (the
QNX demo runs from a ramdisk, which makes it very snappy), but it did work.
OTOH, there wasn't any room left for any apps.

--
Matt McLeod,  <mjm(at)hna.com.au>
"Please try to understand before one of us dies".

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Dan Hildebra » Tue, 24 Jun 1997 04:00:00







>>>Due to the monolithic Linux kernel, it is unlikely that you could get a
>>>bootable Linux floppy to do this. But it's not far off. You could do it
>>>in two disks easily. That's not too bad. But how many disks would it take
>>>to do it with windows? 20+.

>>   Considering that a full wfw distribution runs 11 disks, and a regular
>>   windows 3.1 distribution runs 7 disks, I'd suspect that, if you could
>>   build compressed floppies, you could build a stripped-down install
>>   disk that would successfully load the windowing system.

>I did this several years ago, without compression.

>A very basic Windows 3.1 system, on a single floppy.  Slow as *y (the
>QNX demo runs from a ramdisk, which makes it very snappy), but it did work.
>OTOH, there wasn't any room left for any apps.

That's the whole point.  That QNX floppy also has a web browser, web
server, TCP/IP and several demo apps.
--

http://www.veryComputer.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8
 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Tim Smi » Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:00:00



Quote:>POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system, an HTML 3.2 browser, an
>embedded web server, an Internet dialer, TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE
>1.44M floppy!!!

>I think this is a very good example of how crummy MS code is. MS would

Unless you can fit Linux, a full windowing system, an HTML 3.2 browser,
an embedded web server, an internet dialer, TCP/IP, and more in a SINGLE
1.44M floppy (!!!), it's also a good example of how bloated Linux is.
What is your point?

--Tim Smith

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Grzegorz Nowakowsk » Thu, 26 Jun 1997 04:00:00




> >POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system, an HTML 3.2 browser, an
> >embedded web server, an Internet dialer, TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE
> >1.44M floppy!!!

> >I think this is a very good example of how crummy MS code is. MS would

> Unless you can fit Linux, a full windowing system, an HTML 3.2 browser,
> an embedded web server, an internet dialer, TCP/IP, and more in a SINGLE
> 1.44M floppy (!!!), it's also a good example of how bloated Linux is.
> What is your point?

The point is that if Linux is too bloated for me I can choose another,
more tight system (QNX for example) and still have Unix in my machine.
--
                                              Grzegorz "Krecik" Nowakowski

`...this is the rock solid principle on which the whole of the
Corporation's Galaxy-wide success is founded - their fundamental
design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws.'
-- So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish -- Douglas Adams.

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Bart Silverstri » Fri, 27 Jun 1997 04:00:00





>>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>>It is absolutely amazing...

>   The windowing system is, yes.

>   I can build a 1.44mb floppy that will do much the same with Linux (if
>   I could be bothered to figure out compressed filesystems :-) but it
>   would take a lot of work to update MGR and port a modern browser onto
>   it.

If you ever make a "Linux Demo" in a form like QNX has (only a little more
functional, like including Telnet :-) that fits on one floppy that can be
made
as easily as the QNX demo, would you please email me?

I mean, really, it would be great to have something like this.  I am a
newcomer
to learning Linux, and some of the biggest hurdles are a) getting used to
how it
handles files, filesystems, etc. compared to DOS/Winx, and b) having a
really
easy way to "migrate" to Linux.

A disk that can be downloaded off the Internet, unzipped locally, and have
a batch
file run to create a boot floppy and can then reboot to run a
networkable/ISP dialable
setup of Linux would be a real boon not only as a "training tool" but as a
way of
advocating the use of Linux...just go up to someone who you've been talking
to
about the virtues of Linux and give'm a copy of the boot floppy and let'm
have a try
at it themselves, without ever harming their current setup in any way,
shape, or form.

Now *that* is something I'd like to see...with or without a "modern
browser"; I'd like
to see a Linux boot floppy that would have the potential to be inserted
into a computer
on a network and make a powerful workstation, with the ability (even if
it's mostly
cli...I've always liked Pine :-) to do telnetting, email, etc...but still
be able to be
used in a standalone system with some things to show Linux off a little in
what it's
capable of!

-Bart

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by david parso » Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:00:00







>>>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>>>It is absolutely amazing...

>>   The windowing system is, yes.

>>   I can build a 1.44mb floppy that will do much the same with Linux (if
>>   I could be bothered to figure out compressed filesystems :-) but it
>>   would take a lot of work to update MGR and port a modern browser onto
>>   it.

>Another part of the trick is to get that functionality in the browser (full
>HTML 3.2 with many extensions) in the small memory footprint it occupies.  

   That's just an application problem, not a systems problem.   Shoot,
   if I wanted to do the cheap and dirty "pile code into a single-disk
   install", I'd just take the QNX demo, copy the apps onto a Linux
   floppy, then pile additional stuff into the floppy until it was full.
   It certainly doesn't say anything about the kernel; both the Linux
   and QNX markets are small enough so that propping up the kernel with
   proprietary applications won't make much difference.

                  ____
    david parsons \bi/ the single floppy is a clever marketing stunt, though,
                   \/             and I hope you can make some sales from it.

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by Dan Hildebra » Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:00:00









>>>>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>>>>It is absolutely amazing...

>>>   The windowing system is, yes.

>>>   I can build a 1.44mb floppy that will do much the same with Linux (if
>>>   I could be bothered to figure out compressed filesystems :-) but it
>>>   would take a lot of work to update MGR and port a modern browser onto
>>>   it.

>>Another part of the trick is to get that functionality in the browser (full
>>HTML 3.2 with many extensions) in the small memory footprint it occupies.  

>   That's just an application problem, not a systems problem.

Our port of the Spyglass browser to QNX and the Photon microGUI, plus all
our extensions to that browser still result in a browser that takes less
than half the memory than the browser requires when running under X Windows
on QNX.  Clearly, some systems level work was required.  :-)

--

http://www.qnx.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8

 
 
 

QNX and MS code bloat

Post by david parso » Tue, 01 Jul 1997 04:00:00










>>>>>Go to http://www.qnx.com/iat and download their demo disk *now*. :)

>>>>>It is absolutely amazing...

>>>>   The windowing system is, yes.

>>>>   I can build a 1.44mb floppy that will do much the same with Linux (if
>>>>   I could be bothered to figure out compressed filesystems :-) but it
>>>>   would take a lot of work to update MGR and port a modern browser onto
>>>>   it.

>>>Another part of the trick is to get that functionality in the browser (full
>>>HTML 3.2 with many extensions) in the small memory footprint it occupies.  

>>   That's just an application problem, not a systems problem.

>Our port of the Spyglass browser to QNX and the Photon microGUI, plus all
>our extensions to that browser still result in a browser that takes less
>than half the memory than the browser requires when running under X Windows
>on QNX.  Clearly, some systems level work was required.  :-)

   If you're saying that the GUI is integrated into the QNX kernel, I
   think I'll take this opportunity to degauss the demo disk, then back
   away slowly until I can lock the door between QNX and my network.

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/ just say NO to hardwired shells
                  \/

 
 
 

1. MS Code Bloat?

This is heresay but I heard it from two sources I trust.  In Microsoft
Excel, there is an "easter egg" that takes you into a 3D flight
simulator.

Now, never having used (and never expecting a use for) Excel, this
doesn't affect me directly.  On the other hand, I wonder how many megs
of my hard-drives that I thought were being used for development tools
are actually being used for goofy toys.  I also wonder if there are less
"innocent" easter-eggs floating around in MS software.

This kind of thing would be pretty hard to slip into a system that makes
the source code available...

2. SO_LINGER, l_onoff=off vs. l_onoff=on with l_linger=0?

3. MS Flame Fest (bloat! bloat! bloat!)

4. uucp and sendmail

5. procfs bloat, syscall bloat [in reference to cpu affinity]

6. How many 32MB memory-modules in a SPARCstation 5... ?

7. QNX and LILO [I can't boot QNX]

8. Oracle on LInux?

9. Codes size bloat with g++?

10. How to avoid code bloat when using STL map templates

11. Help compiling Caldera 1.2.13 kernel (code bloat?)

12. Code Bloats...

13. Portable code: Same C++ code source for MS-Windows and XFree86.