Very Computer

I've been browsing the net for a couple of weeks in search of information
about the best server possbile for my situation, that is, web hosting
ordinary web pages (scalable enough to grow) and e-mail server.

A very simple search that should have been pretty easy. I'm using RedHat
Linux as my personnal LAN for more than 2 years now, so I investigated Linux
and the various BSDs, essentially OpenBSD and FreeBSD.

Unfortunately, I found myself in the middle of religious wars with very
little common sense and very few objective opinions. Typically, Linux users
say Windows is *(I agree). Slackware and Debian users claim RedHat and
RPM is crap. BSD users as a whole say Linux is crap, and every faction of
the BSD community claims other factions are crap.

So I decided, from what I've read, to go with OpenBSD as the router with IPF
and RedHat as the Web and mail server. Anyway, whatever I choose, somebody
will tell me it's crap.

I really hope this shit stops in the *nix community at large. It does more
harm than good IMO. But that being said, maybe even my opinion is crap.

Welcome to our tiny little island!

USENET is the *last* place to get objective opinions, as you've recently
discovered.

Quote:

> So I decided, from what I've read, to go with OpenBSD as the router with
> IPF and RedHat as the Web and mail server. Anyway, whatever I choose,
> somebody will tell me it's crap.

Actually, if whatever you utilize "gets the job done", does it
reliably, and most importantly, does it to your satisfaction, it doesn't
matter what anyone thinks.

Your setup sounds quite workable to me, FWIW.

Quote:

> I really hope this shit stops in the *nix community at large. It does
> more harm than good IMO. But that being said, maybe even my opinion is
> crap.

I think you may be overestimating the importance of the discussions
occuring here. Nothing relevant ever transpires because a lot of us just
visit to let off steam and have a bit of fun at each other's expense.
Being USENET, a lot of unhinged characters float in from the darker
recceses like alt.singles and pee in the proverbial gene pool from
time to time. Makes it all the more interesting.

As for true advocacy, this group's namesake pretty much speaks for
itself. If one can't see its' benefits and understand its' strengths and
potential, then that's one's own lookout, IMHO. No need to start a jihad
because someone chooses to look elsewhere for solutions. <g>

I'm not sure why you didnt decide to go with the same OS for both.  In my
experience, as homogenous an os topology as you can get, the better.

That said, I'd probably go with openbsd myself for both machines, with
progeny debian (www.progeny.com) as a close second choice.

-----.

--
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and
its filled with people who are filled with shit and it
goes by the name of London

I believe your answer resides right there in this statement. You've used
RedHat. That would be an excellent place to start.

Quote:

>Unfortunately, I found myself in the middle of religious wars with very
>little common sense and very few objective opinions. Typically, Linux users
>say Windows is *(I agree). Slackware and Debian users claim RedHat and
>RPM is crap. BSD users as a whole say Linux is crap, and every faction of
>the BSD community claims other factions are crap.

Of course. And it's the absolute worst in this newgroup. It's human nature
to zealeously advocate what you use and know and discount what's not
familiar.

Quote:

>So I decided, from what I've read, to go with OpenBSD as the router with IPF
>and RedHat as the Web and mail server. Anyway, whatever I choose, somebody
>will tell me it's crap.

I guess my only question is why switch horses with the router? This is a
situation where convenience and familiarity could outweigh performance as long
as the performance of the familiar product is acceptable.

My suggestion would be go with Redhat for the the whole setup and then evaluate
if it meets your needs.

BTW personally I'd probably use Slackware for exactly the same reason: High
familiarity with acceptable performance.

BAJ

Quote:> A very simple search that should have been pretty easy. I'm using RedHat
> Linux as my personnal LAN for more than 2 years now, so I investigated Linux
> and the various BSDs, essentially OpenBSD and FreeBSD.
> Unfortunately, I found myself in the middle of religious wars with very
> little common sense and very few objective opinions.

In the *nix community? Never!

Quote:> Typically, Linux users
> say Windows is *(I agree). Slackware and Debian users claim RedHat and
> RPM is crap.

Fropm another RedHat users point of view: RPM can be a royal pain in the
arse sometimes. It seems to work best when you stick in a CD to upgrade a
whole system. Also, RH7.0 has some biiiiig down sides, eg: the X init
scripts are even more kludged than 6.X (I've whined about this before) and
occasionally it would fail to shut down at about 90% of the way through,
leaving the system inoperable and the disks mounted (I enables sysrq since I
didn't have time to find the source of the problem). There were quite a lot
of other points which annoyed me as well and its not even on my computer. I
can't comment on 7.1 though. I'm still of the opinion than 5.2 was the best
overall distro they created.

Quote:> BSD users as a whole say Linux is crap, and every faction of
> the BSD community claims other factions are crap.

That's religion for you...

Some consensus seems to be that FreeBSD has a better VM subsystem and Linux
does SMP better.

Quote:> So I decided, from what I've read, to go with OpenBSD as the router with IPF
> and RedHat as the Web and mail server. Anyway, whatever I choose, somebody
> will tell me it's crap.

Probably a good choice, but steer clear of RH7.0

Quote:> I really hope this shit stops in the *nix community at large. It does more
> harm than good IMO. But that being said, maybe even my opinion is crap.

-Ed

--

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-1 r 230 350 moveto 0 1 179{2 1 r dup show 2 1 r 88 rotate 4 mul 0 rmoveto}
for/s 15 d f pop 240 420 moveto 0 1 3 {4 2 1 r sub -1 r show}for showpage

Well, the conclusion I came to was not based on USENET at all. I know that
goups such as this one are very often used to vent and for little mind games
and that's fine with me.

Unfortunaltely, the seach I did was on the Web through Googles essentially,
and I expected to find more "objectivity". I was not complaining about this
groups lack of objectivity. I came here because I thought this was the place
to vent about this topic.

I just think that it's a total nonesens to hear the BSD community being so
arsh about Linux. From what you read about it, it's as if Linux was even
more crappy that Windows.

Yet I hear you about "get the job done". I'll remember this one.

Thanks for the tip about Proginy... I'll look into it, Debian as always been
my second choice, yet my choice of RadHat is mainly based on ease of
administration. And my OpenBSD choice is based on IPF. I *hate* iptables,
and ipchains is not stateful. IPF is so much easier to configure and
maintain, at least IMO.

Thanks for the tip on familiarity. Since you're the second person to tell me
that, I guess this is something to consider.

Adding a lot of memory or swap space will cure this problem, at least if
you log off (or close Nutscape?) daily.

This problem has greatly spurred my interest in Debian.

Quote:> There were quite a lot
> of other points which annoyed me as well and its not even on my computer. I
> can't comment on 7.1 though. I'm still of the opinion than 5.2 was the best
> overall distro they created.

7.1 is the same.

Quote:> > I really hope this shit stops in the *nix community at large. It does more
> > harm than good IMO. But that being said, maybe even my opinion is crap.

Once you realize that people bond to their decisions, and you start
letting them have their zeal, you can more easily winnow out the crap.

Chris

--
[ ] Evil empire
[ ] Lovable penguin

You decide.

Quote:> I'm not sure why you didnt decide to go with the same OS for both.  In
> my experience, as homogenous an os topology as you can get, the better.

The better from what aspect? Don't forget about security here. Many layers,
that's good. But many layers with different properties, that's even better.
Variety is the spice of life ;)

--
http://www.pc-tools.net/
DOS, Win32, Linux software

Good for you.  Hope everything works out.

Quote:> I really hope this shit stops in the *nix community at large. It
> does more harm than good IMO. But that being said, maybe even my
> opinion is crap.

This has been going on since the invention of sticks as tools, I
imagine;  "Ooog's stick better!  Ogg's stick better!"

--
It won't be long before the CPU is a card in a slot on your ATX videoboard

I guess it depends.  At least solid unix.  :)

-----.

--
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and
its filled with people who are filled with shit and it
goes by the name of London

Thats actually my favorite aspect of progeny.  Its debian potato packaged
in a very easy to administrate package based on GTK.

Youll never configure ipchains by hand again...:)

-----.

Said Syl in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:04:45 -0400;

Quote:>Well, the conclusion I came to was not based on USENET at all. I know that
>goups such as this one are very often used to vent and for little mind games
>and that's fine with me.

>Unfortunaltely, the seach I did was on the Web through Googles essentially,
>and I expected to find more "objectivity".

Do you expect objectivity when you ask someone what kind of car you
should buy, or what brand of VCR to get?  People are going to recommend
their personal favorite, not any 'objectivity' ideal perfect solution.

Quote:>I was not complaining about this
>groups lack of objectivity. I came here because I thought this was the place
>to vent about this topic.

Well, the problem you're having is that you want advice, and you can't
get it.  Because nobody has any advice to give you, just opinion. You
want advice you can rely on (it still won't be 'objective', but it will
at least be 'professional') then go pay someone to decide what system to
use.  As Terry pointed out, it doesn't matter much; anything but a
Windows solution is generally going to work fine, and might be a major
headache, because that is the way things work with computers.

Quote:>I just think that it's a total nonesens to hear the BSD community being so
>arsh about Linux. From what you read about it, it's as if Linux was even
>more crappy that Windows.

Its a matter of idealism, actually.  BSD fans feel like Linux is an
upstart that is stealing their thunder.  They harp on and on about
outrageously picayune and minuscule technical details, and entirely
ignore suitability for purpose.  BSD is not a bad system at all; it is
very high performance, and that might be valuable to you.  But it isn't
like a theoretical edge due to some academic engineering issue is
necessarily going to mean jack-shit in your implementation.  If you need
a bog-standard OS that won't let you down, then just avoid monopoly
crapware, and go with whatever is the most convenient.

Quote:>Yet I hear you about "get the job done". I'll remember this one.

*Whenever* you find the experts on an issue endlessly battling a holy
war, you can pretty much presume it is because there isn't enough
difference between the alternatives for anyone else to really give a
shit about.  Yea, whatever gets the job done.

--
T. Max Devlin
  *** The best way to convince another is
          to state your case moderately and
             accurately.   - Benjamin Franklin ***