Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Post by [H]ome » Mon, 04 Nov 2002 12:16:13



#!/bin/fud
GodwinsLaw=0
for AnyoneInterested in comp.os.linux.advocacy linux.redhat.install
do
if [ GodwinsLaw = 1 ]
exit 1
fi

Hi,

Let me start by saying that I am writing this from OE on Win98, since I'm
having trouble installing RH (and I'm not at home so I don't have access to
my other computers). So no flames please.

I did have lots of questions, but a read through linux.redhat.install, RH
Bugzilla, and various Google searches has pretty much answered those
questions.

Since I'm going to be inflicting you with my opinions, I think it only fair
that I introduce myself (in an anonymous fashion!)

Experience:
Systems used (chronological order 1970's - present day)

Commodore PET
Apple IIE
BBC A/B
Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum
Commodore Amiga (500/Plus/4000T)
IBM AT/XT Compatibles (Various)
VAX (VMS/Berkley Unix)

Education:

BSc Comp.Sci (Hons)
Currently saving for RHCE course.

Background:

I'm a hoarder; I never throw anything away. This includes computer hardware.
When I upgrade, the old bits get "archived" in a cupboard for a rainy day.
When I collect enough old "bits" ... a new computer is born. So it goes with
my latest project.

Goal:

Create a two-way multiboot system comprising:

Windows 3.11 For Workgroups (to play my huge collection of legacy games)

Linux (to fulfil whatever purpose is flavour of the month ... this month
its "Backup Server" using a combination of NovaNet for regular files and dd
+ NFS for imaging.)

Hardware:

I realise the hardware involved here is hardly "bleeding edge" - that's not
the point, the point is to recycle and "find a loving home for" unwanted
bits. Some of the following hardware was specifically bought (second hand
off eBay) just to complete the project (with Win311 compatibility / driver
availability in mind)

Mobo - PcChips M560 ALi Aladdin IV/IV+ Socket 7 (Yes, amazingly I actually
managed to correctly identify a PcChips mobo)

CPU - Classic Pentium 233 MX (586)

VGA - Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Trio64V+ PCI [765])

Offboard IDE - Promise Ultra66

HD - IBM "DeathStar" 21Gb (boot) and 76Gb (storage) respectively on the
Promise controller.

CD - TDK 16x10x40 CDRW on Ali M5229 IDE 0:0 Master

NIC - Netgear FA310TX

Tape - OnStream DI-30 on Ali M5229 IDE 0:1 Slave

Audio - Creative SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

Mouse, Keyboard etc of no consequence.

Installation:

Win311 - Smooth, no problems (Networked using TCP via router. File-sharing
etc no problem)
Win98SE - Ditto, only easier (all hardware enumerated straight out the box)
(Note - I don't want Win98SE on this box, its a temporary measure until I
find a resolution to the RH install problem)
Red Hat 8.0 - Install failure (Everything Install), Unstable (Minimum
Install)

Opinion:

My opinions are based on RH 8.0 installed on this system only. In a
different setup, it is natural to assume that some of the issues raised
would not exist at all/to the same extent.

I've been reading with interest about a lot of people having problems with
the install images. There's been a lot of talk about ftp corruption of ISOs
via asc Vs bin download method. I have to say that I am also a victim of
this, but not because I don't know how to type "bin" at the ftp> prompt.
There seems to be a conspiracy of circumstances at work here. I, like many
others, have been getting corrupt RH ISOs from many different servers. I
have downloaded these ISO's using tools such as ftp, wget, curl, GetRight,
WS_FTP and others, in different versions of different operating systems ...
and all with the same result. This, combined with the fact that I have
successfully downloaded many ISO's over the years (including RH ISO's) leads
me to suspect that something stinks in suburbia. I finally found a set of
ISO's that passed the md5 check, but the rest remains a mystery. To all
those who have wasted many hours downloading corrupted ISO's - my sympathy.

Unfortunately, it goes downhill from here.

RH 8.0 simply will not install on this computer. Not without some long
laborious effort - and even then it is not stable. The errors range from
system freezes to panics and are reproducible. When I am finally offered
some kind of core dump - it contains messages like "memory.c 117 bad pmd
<hex number>" and "invalid path". For the longest time I was convinced I had
a bad SDRAM, but it now turns out that its a problem with the CD itself. It
seems that even when it passes the md5 check and RH's "mediacheck" there is
still some obscure error on the disk that causes a lockup. I even considered
the possibility that the CDRom drive was faulty/overheating (a common
problem) but then I realised that surely it would have manifested during the
Win98 install. I have tried different media too (some drives balk with
certain media) ... but then so much of my other software (backups ... ahem)
are on the same media and read on the same drive - without problem. I'm
suspicious of isolinux. I'm also deeply suspicious of RH's "customised"
kernel. There is more than the passing possibility that gcc3.2 has something
to do with it (oh no not gcc problems again!). Whatever it is, all this is
mere speculation (FUD alert), but the undeniable fact is it is affecting a
huge number of people. So there.

I did finally manage to get RH 8.0 installed, by opting for a minimum
install then rpm'ing the remaining packages once logged on. Even then it
took several attempts, since rpm periodically froze at random points,
requiring a hard reset. I never did manage to verify all the packages since
"rpm -va" bombed every time, but I do know that I was left with a system
that was more unstable than Win98 on a very, very bad day.

Stability issues aside (its subjective/speculative anyway), what do I think
of RH 8.0?

Erik Troan, Red Hat's director of product marketing, has said that he is
"... waiting to see whether customers give [Bluecurve] a 'thumbs up,' or a
'thumbs down.'". Overall, I'd have to go with Caesar and give it a 'thumbs
down'. It isn't that I don't like the pretty colours, or even that we have
been stripped of freedom of choice in the name of "a consistent look and
feel [which is] 'polished' and more '3D.'" Its more that the whole thing
stinks to high Redmond.

Let me mix a little politics with some psychology and see what we come up
with:

Microsoft. The Blue Team (the prevailing colour in their Operating Systems,
and generally recognised as their "Team Colour". I believe Microsoft once
tried to copyright the colour Blue, only to discover that Disney had beaten
them to it.). Blue as in "right wing" or "capitalist". Advocating the ideals
of Commerce; Profit; Greed; and Advancement through Corruption.
The champion of proprietary, closed source, bloatware.

Red Hat. The Red Team. Red as in "socialist" or even ... dare I say
"communist" (McCarthy alert). Advocating the ideals of Freedom; Openness;
Sharing; and Advancement through Co-operation. The champion of standards
based, opensource, software.

Bluecurve. Blue as in ... wait a minute ... blue? BLUE? Curve as in ...
"U-Turn".

Now look at the Bluecurve theme.

Look again.

Scary, isn't it?

Now try to play an MP3 file, and after you've read the error message go over
to http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html and gasp in disbelief.

Now ask Bernhard "bero" Rosenkraenzer why he resigned from Red Hat.

Red Hat and Bluecurve in the same sentence! For those of you in the UK,
you'll understand what I mean when I say "New Labour". See the connection.
Why don't Red Hat go all the way and just rename the company "Microsoft II"?

Ok, so I'm really, really reading between the lines now but ... I wonder.

Now that fact that certain packages have been dumped is not of great concern
to me. For example, gnorpm was always a dog, I don't think I ever managed to
get it to work. I always preferred KPackage anyway (oh no, I used the "K"
word, somebody call the RedHat police). And it makes me laugh how they refer
to the dumping of packages as "depreciated". Depreciated - there's a
euphemism if I ever heard one. It reminds me of the use of the word
"Retirement" in Blade Runner.

It isn't Bluecurve or the instability or even the bloat that worries me. It
isn't the breaking of backwards compatibility either (gcc, XFree86). It
isn't even the exclusion of certain packages.

Its the motive.

As that ancient Chinese philosopher, Garth Algar, once said, "We fear
change."

I'm with Garth.

There's a part of me that respects Red Hat's desire to compete with
Microsoft. However, they've publicly stated that RH 8.0/Blucurve is *not* an
attempt to replace Windows on the desktop. So what *is* it then? Linux for
Lamers(R)?

I think the MP3 "thing" is a bigger clue than Blucurve. Troan concedes that
"It may not have been the legally necessary decision."

"... may not ..." ?

So the legal situation becomes "muddier" and Red Hat sells out? Jesus wept.

Hey, maybe the MPAA; DVD-CCA; DMCA; and WIPO are right, and that
Linux users do not have the right to watch their legally purchased DVDs on
their computers. Lets "depreciate" xine.

Oh, and Evolution looks a lot like Outlook, let's "depreciate" that too.

Can't Red Hat see, that the only thing they are "depreciating" is their
userbase.

I accept that Red Hat are probably only trying to fight Microsoft on their
own terms ("keep it legit"), but they could at least wait until they are in
the game before selling out to right-wing idealism.

Then again, how "legit" have Microsoft ever been? Ask RealNetworks,
Netscape or the US DOJ.

I'd love to see Linux triumph over Windows.

But at what price?

read GodwinsLaw
done
exit 0

# [H]omer

 
 
 

Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Post by [H]ome » Mon, 04 Nov 2002 12:49:00


#!/bin/fud
GodwinsLaw=0
for AnyoneInterested in comp.os.linux.advocacy linux.redhat.install
do
if [ GodwinsLaw = 1 ]
exit 1
fi

Hi,

Let me start by saying that I am writing this from OE on Win98, since I'm
having trouble installing RH (and I'm not at home so I don't have access to
my other computers). So no flames please.

I did have lots of questions, but a read through linux.redhat.install, RH
Bugzilla, and various Google searches has pretty much answered those
questions.

Since I'm going to be inflicting you with my opinions, I think it only fair
that I introduce myself (in an anonymous fashion!)

Experience:
Systems used (chronological order 1970's - present day)

Commodore PET
Apple IIE
BBC A/B
Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum
Commodore Amiga (500/Plus/4000T)
IBM AT/XT Compatibles (Various)
VAX (VMS/Berkley Unix)

Education:

BSc Comp.Sci (Hons)
Currently saving for RHCE course.

Background:

I'm a hoarder; I never throw anything away. This includes computer hardware.
When I upgrade, the old bits get "archived" in a cupboard for a rainy day.
When I collect enough old "bits" ... a new computer is born. So it goes with
my latest project.

Goal:

Create a two-way multiboot system comprising:

Windows 3.11 For Workgroups (to play my huge collection of legacy games)

Linux (to fulfil whatever purpose is flavour of the month ... this month
its "Backup Server" using a combination of NovaNet for regular files and dd
+ NFS for imaging.)

Hardware:

I realise the hardware involved here is hardly "bleeding edge" - that's not
the point, the point is to recycle and "find a loving home for" unwanted
bits. Some of the following hardware was specifically bought (second hand
off eBay) just to complete the project (with Win311 compatibility / driver
availability in mind)

Mobo - PcChips M560 ALi Aladdin IV/IV+ Socket 7 (Yes, amazingly I actually
managed to correctly identify a PcChips mobo)

CPU - Classic Pentium 233 MX (586)

VGA - Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Trio64V+ PCI [765])

Offboard IDE - Promise Ultra66

HD - IBM "DeathStar" 21Gb (boot) and 76Gb (storage) respectively on the
Promise controller.

CD - TDK 16x10x40 CDRW on Ali M5229 IDE 0:0 Master

NIC - Netgear FA310TX

Tape - OnStream DI-30 on Ali M5229 IDE 0:1 Slave

Audio - Creative SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

Mouse, Keyboard etc of no consequence.

Installation:

Win311 - Smooth, no problems (Networked using TCP via router. File-sharing
etc no problem)
Win98SE - Ditto, only easier (all hardware enumerated straight out the box)
(Note - I don't want Win98SE on this box, its a temporary measure until I
find a resolution to the RH install problem)
Red Hat 8.0 - Install failure (Everything Install), Unstable (Minimum
Install)

Opinion:

My opinions are based on RH 8.0 installed on this system only. In a
different setup, it is natural to assume that some of the issues raised
would not exist at all/to the same extent.

I've been reading with interest about a lot of people having problems with
the install images. There's been a lot of talk about ftp corruption of ISOs
via asc Vs bin download method. I have to say that I am also a victim of
this, but not because I don't know how to type "bin" at the ftp> prompt.
There seems to be a conspiracy of circumstances at work here. I, like many
others, have been getting corrupt RH ISOs from many different servers. I
have downloaded these ISO's using tools such as ftp, wget, curl, GetRight,
WS_FTP and others, in different versions of different operating systems ...
and all with the same result. This, combined with the fact that I have
successfully downloaded many ISO's over the years (including RH ISO's) leads
me to suspect that something stinks in suburbia. I finally found a set of
ISO's that passed the md5 check, but the rest remains a mystery. To all
those who have wasted many hours downloading corrupted ISO's - my sympathy.

Unfortunately, it goes downhill from here.

RH 8.0 simply will not install on this computer. Not without some long
laborious effort - and even then it is not stable. The errors range from
system freezes to panics and are reproducible. When I am finally offered
some kind of core dump - it contains messages like "memory.c 117 bad pmd
<hex number>" and "invalid path". For the longest time I was convinced I had
a bad SDRAM, but it now turns out that its a problem with the CD itself. It
seems that even when it passes the md5 check and RH's "mediacheck" there is
still some obscure error on the disk that causes a lockup. I even considered
the possibility that the CDRom drive was faulty/overheating (a common
problem) but then I realised that surely it would have manifested during the
Win98 install. I have tried different media too (some drives balk with
certain media) ... but then so much of my other software (backups ... ahem)
are on the same media and read on the same drive - without problem. I'm
suspicious of isolinux. I'm also deeply suspicious of RH's "customised"
kernel. There is more than the passing possibility that gcc3.2 has something
to do with it (oh no not gcc problems again!). Whatever it is, all this is
mere speculation (FUD alert), but the undeniable fact is it is affecting a
huge number of people. So there.

I did finally manage to get RH 8.0 installed, by opting for a minimum
install then rpm'ing the remaining packages once logged on. Even then it
took several attempts, since rpm periodically froze at random points,
requiring a hard reset. I never did manage to verify all the packages since
"rpm -va" bombed every time, but I do know that I was left with a system
that was more unstable than Win98 on a very, very bad day.

Stability issues aside (its subjective/speculative anyway), what do I think
of RH 8.0?

Erik Troan, Red Hat's director of product marketing, has said that he is
"... waiting to see whether customers give [Bluecurve] a 'thumbs up,' or a
'thumbs down.'". Overall, I'd have to go with Caesar and give it a 'thumbs
down'. It isn't that I don't like the pretty colours, or even that we have
been stripped of freedom of choice in the name of "a consistent look and
feel [which is] 'polished' and more '3D.'" Its more that the whole thing
stinks to high Redmond.

Let me mix a little politics with some psychology and see what we come up
with:

Microsoft. The Blue Team (the prevailing colour in their Operating Systems,
and generally recognised as their "Team Colour". I believe Microsoft once
tried to copyright the colour Blue, only to discover that Disney had beaten
them to it.). Blue as in "right wing" or "capitalist". Advocating the ideals
of Commerce; Profit; Greed; and Advancement through Corruption.
The champion of proprietary, closed source, bloatware.

Red Hat. The Red Team. Red as in "socialist" or even ... dare I say
"communist" (McCarthy alert). Advocating the ideals of Freedom; Openness;
Sharing; and Advancement through Co-operation. The champion of standards
based, opensource, software.

Bluecurve. Blue as in ... wait a minute ... blue? BLUE? Curve as in ...
"U-Turn".

Now look at the Bluecurve theme.

Look again.

Scary, isn't it?

Now try to play an MP3 file, and after you've read the error message go over
to http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html and gasp in disbelief.

Now ask Bernhard "bero" Rosenkraenzer why he resigned from Red Hat.

Red Hat and Bluecurve in the same sentence! For those of you in the UK,
you'll understand what I mean when I say "New Labour". See the connection.
Why don't Red Hat go all the way and just rename the company "Microsoft II"?

Ok, so I'm really, really reading between the lines now but ... I wonder.

Now that fact that certain packages have been dumped is not of great concern
to me. For example, gnorpm was always a dog, I don't think I ever managed to
get it to work. I always preferred KPackage anyway (oh no, I used the "K"
word, somebody call the RedHat police). And it makes me laugh how they refer
to the dumping of packages as "depreciated". Depreciated - there's a
euphemism if I ever heard one. It reminds me of the use of the word
"Retirement" in Blade Runner.

It isn't Bluecurve or the instability or even the bloat that worries me. It
isn't the breaking of backwards compatibility either (gcc, XFree86). It
isn't even the exclusion of certain packages.

Its the motive.

As that ancient Chinese philosopher, Garth Algar, once said, "We fear
change."

I'm with Garth.

There's a part of me that respects Red Hat's desire to compete with
Microsoft. However, they've publicly stated that RH 8.0/Blucurve is *not* an
attempt to replace Windows on the desktop. So what *is* it then? Linux for
Lamers(R)?

I think the MP3 "thing" is a bigger clue than Blucurve. Troan concedes that
"It may not have been the legally necessary decision."

"... may not ..." ?

So the legal situation becomes "muddier" and Red Hat sells out? Jesus wept.

Hey, maybe the MPAA; DVD-CCA; DMCA; and WIPO are right, and that
Linux users do not have the right to watch their legally purchased DVDs on
their computers. Lets "depreciate" xine.

Oh, and Evolution looks a lot like Outlook, let's "depreciate" that too.

Can't Red Hat see, that the only thing they are "depreciating" is their
userbase.

I accept that Red Hat are probably only trying to fight Microsoft on their
own terms ("keep it legit"), but they could at least wait until they are in
the game before selling out to right-wing idealism.

Then again, how "legit" have Microsoft ever been? Ask RealNetworks,
Netscape or the US DOJ.

I'd love to see Linux triumph over Windows.

But at what price?

read GodwinsLaw
done
exit 0

# [H]omer

 
 
 

Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Post by Tim Princ » Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:04:53



> Windows 3.11 For Workgroups (to play my huge collection of legacy games)

> Linux (to fulfil whatever purpose is flavour of the month ... this month
> its "Backup Server" using a combination of NovaNet for regular files and
> dd + NFS for imaging.)

> Hardware:

> Mobo - PcChips M560 ALi Aladdin IV/IV+ Socket 7 (Yes, amazingly I actually
> managed to correctly identify a PcChips mobo)

> CPU - Classic Pentium 233 MX (586)

> VGA - Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Trio64V+ PCI [765])

> Offboard IDE - Promise Ultra66

> HD - IBM "DeathStar" 21Gb (boot) and 76Gb (storage) respectively on the
> Promise controller.

> CD - TDK 16x10x40 CDRW on Ali M5229 IDE 0:0 Master

> NIC - Netgear FA310TX

> Tape - OnStream DI-30 on Ali M5229 IDE 0:1 Slave

> Audio - Creative SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

> Mouse, Keyboard etc of no consequence.

> Installation:

> Win311 - Smooth, no problems (Networked using TCP via router. File-sharing
> etc no problem)
> Win98SE - Ditto, only easier (all hardware enumerated straight out the
> box) (Note - I don't want Win98SE on this box, its a temporary measure
> until I find a resolution to the RH install problem)
> Red Hat 8.0 - Install failure (Everything Install), Unstable (Minimum
> Install)

> Opinion:

> My opinions are based on RH 8.0 installed on this system only. In a
> different setup, it is natural to assume that some of the issues raised
> would not exist at all/to the same extent.

<far too much ranting to comprehend>
I ran redhat 5.0 and Caldera of that era on a slightly newer system which
still runs Win2K, although it predates that OS.  Just no motivation to
change out a reliable disk drive which isn't big enough for 2 OS
installations in the present day.  It's old enough that I just upgraded to
256MB using cast-off RAM sticks.  Right; rh8.0 has overtaken Win3.11 in
hunger for RAM.
Redhat 8.0 doesn't support old hardware well; we just passed down a couple
of P-III systems at the office on which I was running rh6.2 because they
weren't supported by rh[78], but they never required a manual reboot in the
last year.  They recovered unattended from several power outages. rh6.2
was a totally satisfactory OS and still a good choice for hardware of its
era. Colleagues of ours in another state wanted them enough to justify the
considerable shipping cost.
Nor would it be a simple matter to find a system which runs both Win3.1 and
XP well; in fact, my wife's Compaq will not run 98SE and Win2K or linux
with the same BIOS rev.  So, this kind of problem is by no means unique to
linux.  I still have original vendor CD's for those old linux distros, if
you are interested.  I'm running a totally stock SuSE 7.3 right now,
because it's modern enough to satisfy me, on anything short of the latest
hardware.  Yes, I have 2 systems at the office happily running rh8, and
soon to be upgraded to a 2.5 kernel.

--
Tim Prince

 
 
 

Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Post by Adep » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:19:15


whats with the resume, this isnt a job interview...

"[H]omer" <u...@ftc.gov> wrote in message

news:us9tqmb4mecta4@corp.supernews.com...
> #!/bin/fud
> GodwinsLaw=0
> for AnyoneInterested in comp.os.linux.advocacy linux.redhat.install
> do
> if [ GodwinsLaw = 1 ]
> exit 1
> fi

> Hi,

> Let me start by saying that I am writing this from OE on Win98, since I'm
> having trouble installing RH (and I'm not at home so I don't have access
to
> my other computers). So no flames please.

> I did have lots of questions, but a read through linux.redhat.install, RH
> Bugzilla, and various Google searches has pretty much answered those
> questions.

> Since I'm going to be inflicting you with my opinions, I think it only
fair
> that I introduce myself (in an anonymous fashion!)

> Experience:
> Systems used (chronological order 1970's - present day)

> Commodore PET
> Apple IIE
> BBC A/B
> Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum
> Commodore Amiga (500/Plus/4000T)
> IBM AT/XT Compatibles (Various)
> VAX (VMS/Berkley Unix)

> Education:

> BSc Comp.Sci (Hons)
> Currently saving for RHCE course.

> Background:

> I'm a hoarder; I never throw anything away. This includes computer
hardware.
> When I upgrade, the old bits get "archived" in a cupboard for a rainy day.
> When I collect enough old "bits" ... a new computer is born. So it goes
with
> my latest project.

> Goal:

> Create a two-way multiboot system comprising:

> Windows 3.11 For Workgroups (to play my huge collection of legacy games)

> Linux (to fulfil whatever purpose is flavour of the month ... this month
> its "Backup Server" using a combination of NovaNet for regular files and
dd
> + NFS for imaging.)

> Hardware:

> I realise the hardware involved here is hardly "bleeding edge" - that's
not
> the point, the point is to recycle and "find a loving home for" unwanted
> bits. Some of the following hardware was specifically bought (second hand
> off eBay) just to complete the project (with Win311 compatibility / driver
> availability in mind)

> Mobo - PcChips M560 ALi Aladdin IV/IV+ Socket 7 (Yes, amazingly I actually
> managed to correctly identify a PcChips mobo)

> CPU - Classic Pentium 233 MX (586)

> VGA - Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Trio64V+ PCI [765])

> Offboard IDE - Promise Ultra66

> HD - IBM "DeathStar" 21Gb (boot) and 76Gb (storage) respectively on the
> Promise controller.

> CD - TDK 16x10x40 CDRW on Ali M5229 IDE 0:0 Master

> NIC - Netgear FA310TX

> Tape - OnStream DI-30 on Ali M5229 IDE 0:1 Slave

> Audio - Creative SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

> Mouse, Keyboard etc of no consequence.

> Installation:

> Win311 - Smooth, no problems (Networked using TCP via router. File-sharing
> etc no problem)
> Win98SE - Ditto, only easier (all hardware enumerated straight out the
box)
> (Note - I don't want Win98SE on this box, its a temporary measure until I
> find a resolution to the RH install problem)
> Red Hat 8.0 - Install failure (Everything Install), Unstable (Minimum
> Install)

> Opinion:

> My opinions are based on RH 8.0 installed on this system only. In a
> different setup, it is natural to assume that some of the issues raised
> would not exist at all/to the same extent.

> I've been reading with interest about a lot of people having problems with
> the install images. There's been a lot of talk about ftp corruption of
ISOs
> via asc Vs bin download method. I have to say that I am also a victim of
> this, but not because I don't know how to type "bin" at the ftp> prompt.
> There seems to be a conspiracy of circumstances at work here. I, like many
> others, have been getting corrupt RH ISOs from many different servers. I
> have downloaded these ISO's using tools such as ftp, wget, curl, GetRight,
> WS_FTP and others, in different versions of different operating systems
...
> and all with the same result. This, combined with the fact that I have
> successfully downloaded many ISO's over the years (including RH ISO's)
leads
> me to suspect that something stinks in suburbia. I finally found a set of
> ISO's that passed the md5 check, but the rest remains a mystery. To all
> those who have wasted many hours downloading corrupted ISO's - my
sympathy.

> Unfortunately, it goes downhill from here.

> RH 8.0 simply will not install on this computer. Not without some long
> laborious effort - and even then it is not stable. The errors range from
> system freezes to panics and are reproducible. When I am finally offered
> some kind of core dump - it contains messages like "memory.c 117 bad pmd
> <hex number>" and "invalid path". For the longest time I was convinced I
had
> a bad SDRAM, but it now turns out that its a problem with the CD itself.
It
> seems that even when it passes the md5 check and RH's "mediacheck" there
is
> still some obscure error on the disk that causes a lockup. I even
considered
> the possibility that the CDRom drive was faulty/overheating (a common
> problem) but then I realised that surely it would have manifested during
the
> Win98 install. I have tried different media too (some drives balk with
> certain media) ... but then so much of my other software (backups ...
ahem)
> are on the same media and read on the same drive - without problem. I'm
> suspicious of isolinux. I'm also deeply suspicious of RH's "customised"
> kernel. There is more than the passing possibility that gcc3.2 has
something
> to do with it (oh no not gcc problems again!). Whatever it is, all this is
> mere speculation (FUD alert), but the undeniable fact is it is affecting a
> huge number of people. So there.

> I did finally manage to get RH 8.0 installed, by opting for a minimum
> install then rpm'ing the remaining packages once logged on. Even then it
> took several attempts, since rpm periodically froze at random points,
> requiring a hard reset. I never did manage to verify all the packages
since
> "rpm -va" bombed every time, but I do know that I was left with a system
> that was more unstable than Win98 on a very, very bad day.

> Stability issues aside (its subjective/speculative anyway), what do I
think
> of RH 8.0?

> Erik Troan, Red Hat's director of product marketing, has said that he is
> "... waiting to see whether customers give [Bluecurve] a 'thumbs up,' or a
> 'thumbs down.'". Overall, I'd have to go with Caesar and give it a 'thumbs
> down'. It isn't that I don't like the pretty colours, or even that we have
> been stripped of freedom of choice in the name of "a consistent look and
> feel [which is] 'polished' and more '3D.'" Its more that the whole thing
> stinks to high Redmond.

> Let me mix a little politics with some psychology and see what we come up
> with:

> Microsoft. The Blue Team (the prevailing colour in their Operating
Systems,
> and generally recognised as their "Team Colour". I believe Microsoft once
> tried to copyright the colour Blue, only to discover that Disney had
beaten
> them to it.). Blue as in "right wing" or "capitalist". Advocating the
ideals
> of Commerce; Profit; Greed; and Advancement through Corruption.
> The champion of proprietary, closed source, bloatware.

> Red Hat. The Red Team. Red as in "socialist" or even ... dare I say
> "communist" (McCarthy alert). Advocating the ideals of Freedom; Openness;
> Sharing; and Advancement through Co-operation. The champion of standards
> based, opensource, software.

> Bluecurve. Blue as in ... wait a minute ... blue? BLUE? Curve as in ...
> "U-Turn".

> Now look at the Bluecurve theme.

> Look again.

> Scary, isn't it?

> Now try to play an MP3 file, and after you've read the error message go
over
> to http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html and gasp in disbelief.

> Now ask Bernhard "bero" Rosenkraenzer why he resigned from Red Hat.

> Red Hat and Bluecurve in the same sentence! For those of you in the UK,
> you'll understand what I mean when I say "New Labour". See the connection.
> Why don't Red Hat go all the way and just rename the company "Microsoft
II"?

> Ok, so I'm really, really reading between the lines now but ... I wonder.

> Now that fact that certain packages have been dumped is not of great
concern
> to me. For example, gnorpm was always a dog, I don't think I ever managed
to
> get it to work. I always preferred KPackage anyway (oh no, I used the "K"
> word, somebody call the RedHat police). And it makes me laugh how they
refer
> to the dumping of packages as "depreciated". Depreciated - there's a
> euphemism if I ever heard one. It reminds me of the use of the word
> "Retirement" in Blade Runner.

> It isn't Bluecurve or the instability or even the bloat that worries me.
It
> isn't the breaking of backwards compatibility either (gcc, XFree86). It
> isn't even the exclusion of certain packages.

> Its the motive.

> As that ancient Chinese philosopher, Garth Algar, once said, "We fear
> change."

> I'm with Garth.

> There's a part of me that respects Red Hat's desire to compete with
> Microsoft. However, they've publicly stated that RH 8.0/Blucurve is *not*
an
> attempt to replace Windows on the desktop. So what *is* it then? Linux for
> Lamers(R)?

> I think the MP3 "thing" is a bigger clue than Blucurve. Troan concedes
that
> "It may not have been the legally necessary decision."

> "... may not ..." ?

> So the legal situation becomes "muddier" and Red Hat sells out? Jesus
wept.

> Hey, maybe the MPAA; DVD-CCA; DMCA; and WIPO are right, and that
> Linux users do not have the right to watch their legally purchased DVDs on
> their computers. Lets "depreciate" xine.

> Oh, and Evolution looks a lot like Outlook, let's "depreciate" that too.

> Can't Red Hat see, that the only thing they are "depreciating" is their
> userbase.

> I accept that Red Hat are probably only trying to fight Microsoft on their
> own terms ("keep it legit"), but they could at least wait until they are
in
> the game before selling out to right-wing idealism.

> Then again, how "legit" have Microsoft ever been? Ask RealNetworks,

...

read more »

 
 
 

Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Post by Sinister Midge » Tue, 05 Nov 2002 02:31:10


On Mon, 04 Nov 2002 00:19:15 GMT, adepao...@NOSPAMrogers.com drooled and scribbled:

> whats with the resume, this isnt a job interview...

What's with the awful "newsreader" you're using? This isn't a jigsaw
puzzle!! It can't even wrap a simple paragraph properly, fer cryin'
out loud!!!

<NO SNIPPING FOR FULL EFFECT>

> "[H]omer" <u...@ftc.gov> wrote in message
> news:us9tqmb4mecta4@corp.supernews.com...
>> #!/bin/fud
>> GodwinsLaw=0
>> for AnyoneInterested in comp.os.linux.advocacy linux.redhat.install
>> do
>> if [ GodwinsLaw = 1 ]
>> exit 1
>> fi

>> Hi,

>> Let me start by saying that I am writing this from OE on Win98, since I'm
>> having trouble installing RH (and I'm not at home so I don't have access
> to
>> my other computers). So no flames please.

>> I did have lots of questions, but a read through linux.redhat.install, RH
>> Bugzilla, and various Google searches has pretty much answered those
>> questions.

>> Since I'm going to be inflicting you with my opinions, I think it only
> fair
>> that I introduce myself (in an anonymous fashion!)

>> Experience:
>> Systems used (chronological order 1970's - present day)

>> Commodore PET
>> Apple IIE
>> BBC A/B
>> Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum
>> Commodore Amiga (500/Plus/4000T)
>> IBM AT/XT Compatibles (Various)
>> VAX (VMS/Berkley Unix)

>> Education:

>> BSc Comp.Sci (Hons)
>> Currently saving for RHCE course.

>> Background:

>> I'm a hoarder; I never throw anything away. This includes computer
> hardware.
>> When I upgrade, the old bits get "archived" in a cupboard for a rainy day.
>> When I collect enough old "bits" ... a new computer is born. So it goes
> with
>> my latest project.

>> Goal:

>> Create a two-way multiboot system comprising:

>> Windows 3.11 For Workgroups (to play my huge collection of legacy games)

>> Linux (to fulfil whatever purpose is flavour of the month ... this month
>> its "Backup Server" using a combination of NovaNet for regular files and
> dd
>> + NFS for imaging.)

>> Hardware:

>> I realise the hardware involved here is hardly "bleeding edge" - that's
> not
>> the point, the point is to recycle and "find a loving home for" unwanted
>> bits. Some of the following hardware was specifically bought (second hand
>> off eBay) just to complete the project (with Win311 compatibility / driver
>> availability in mind)

>> Mobo - PcChips M560 ALi Aladdin IV/IV+ Socket 7 (Yes, amazingly I actually
>> managed to correctly identify a PcChips mobo)

>> CPU - Classic Pentium 233 MX (586)

>> VGA - Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Trio64V+ PCI [765])

>> Offboard IDE - Promise Ultra66

>> HD - IBM "DeathStar" 21Gb (boot) and 76Gb (storage) respectively on the
>> Promise controller.

>> CD - TDK 16x10x40 CDRW on Ali M5229 IDE 0:0 Master

>> NIC - Netgear FA310TX

>> Tape - OnStream DI-30 on Ali M5229 IDE 0:1 Slave

>> Audio - Creative SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

>> Mouse, Keyboard etc of no consequence.

>> Installation:

>> Win311 - Smooth, no problems (Networked using TCP via router. File-sharing
>> etc no problem)
>> Win98SE - Ditto, only easier (all hardware enumerated straight out the
> box)
>> (Note - I don't want Win98SE on this box, its a temporary measure until I
>> find a resolution to the RH install problem)
>> Red Hat 8.0 - Install failure (Everything Install), Unstable (Minimum
>> Install)

>> Opinion:

>> My opinions are based on RH 8.0 installed on this system only. In a
>> different setup, it is natural to assume that some of the issues raised
>> would not exist at all/to the same extent.

>> I've been reading with interest about a lot of people having problems with
>> the install images. There's been a lot of talk about ftp corruption of
> ISOs
>> via asc Vs bin download method. I have to say that I am also a victim of
>> this, but not because I don't know how to type "bin" at the ftp> prompt.
>> There seems to be a conspiracy of circumstances at work here. I, like many
>> others, have been getting corrupt RH ISOs from many different servers. I
>> have downloaded these ISO's using tools such as ftp, wget, curl, GetRight,
>> WS_FTP and others, in different versions of different operating systems
> ...
>> and all with the same result. This, combined with the fact that I have
>> successfully downloaded many ISO's over the years (including RH ISO's)
> leads
>> me to suspect that something stinks in suburbia. I finally found a set of
>> ISO's that passed the md5 check, but the rest remains a mystery. To all
>> those who have wasted many hours downloading corrupted ISO's - my
> sympathy.

>> Unfortunately, it goes downhill from here.

>> RH 8.0 simply will not install on this computer. Not without some long
>> laborious effort - and even then it is not stable. The errors range from
>> system freezes to panics and are reproducible. When I am finally offered
>> some kind of core dump - it contains messages like "memory.c 117 bad pmd
>> <hex number>" and "invalid path". For the longest time I was convinced I
> had
>> a bad SDRAM, but it now turns out that its a problem with the CD itself.
> It
>> seems that even when it passes the md5 check and RH's "mediacheck" there
> is
>> still some obscure error on the disk that causes a lockup. I even
> considered
>> the possibility that the CDRom drive was faulty/overheating (a common
>> problem) but then I realised that surely it would have manifested during
> the
>> Win98 install. I have tried different media too (some drives balk with
>> certain media) ... but then so much of my other software (backups ...
> ahem)
>> are on the same media and read on the same drive - without problem. I'm
>> suspicious of isolinux. I'm also deeply suspicious of RH's "customised"
>> kernel. There is more than the passing possibility that gcc3.2 has
> something
>> to do with it (oh no not gcc problems again!). Whatever it is, all this is
>> mere speculation (FUD alert), but the undeniable fact is it is affecting a
>> huge number of people. So there.

>> I did finally manage to get RH 8.0 installed, by opting for a minimum
>> install then rpm'ing the remaining packages once logged on. Even then it
>> took several attempts, since rpm periodically froze at random points,
>> requiring a hard reset. I never did manage to verify all the packages
> since
>> "rpm -va" bombed every time, but I do know that I was left with a system
>> that was more unstable than Win98 on a very, very bad day.

>> Stability issues aside (its subjective/speculative anyway), what do I
> think
>> of RH 8.0?

>> Erik Troan, Red Hat's director of product marketing, has said that he is
>> "... waiting to see whether customers give [Bluecurve] a 'thumbs up,' or a
>> 'thumbs down.'". Overall, I'd have to go with Caesar and give it a 'thumbs
>> down'. It isn't that I don't like the pretty colours, or even that we have
>> been stripped of freedom of choice in the name of "a consistent look and
>> feel [which is] 'polished' and more '3D.'" Its more that the whole thing
>> stinks to high Redmond.

>> Let me mix a little politics with some psychology and see what we come up
>> with:

>> Microsoft. The Blue Team (the prevailing colour in their Operating
> Systems,
>> and generally recognised as their "Team Colour". I believe Microsoft once
>> tried to copyright the colour Blue, only to discover that Disney had
> beaten
>> them to it.). Blue as in "right wing" or "capitalist". Advocating the
> ideals
>> of Commerce; Profit; Greed; and Advancement through Corruption.
>> The champion of proprietary, closed source, bloatware.

>> Red Hat. The Red Team. Red as in "socialist" or even ... dare I say
>> "communist" (McCarthy alert). Advocating the ideals of Freedom; Openness;
>> Sharing; and Advancement through Co-operation. The champion of standards
>> based, opensource, software.

>> Bluecurve. Blue as in ... wait a minute ... blue? BLUE? Curve as in ...
>> "U-Turn".

>> Now look at the Bluecurve theme.

>> Look again.

>> Scary, isn't it?

>> Now try to play an MP3 file, and after you've read the error message go
> over
>> to http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html and gasp in disbelief.

>> Now ask Bernhard "bero" Rosenkraenzer why he resigned from Red Hat.

>> Red Hat and Bluecurve in the same sentence! For those of you in the UK,
>> you'll understand what I mean when I say "New Labour". See the connection.
>> Why don't Red Hat go all the way and just rename the company "Microsoft
> II"?

>> Ok, so I'm really, really reading between the lines now but ... I wonder.

>> Now that fact that certain packages have been dumped is not of great
> concern
>> to me. For example, gnorpm was always a dog, I don't think I ever managed
> to
>> get it to work. I always preferred KPackage anyway (oh no, I used the "K"
>> word, somebody call the RedHat police). And it makes me laugh how they
> refer
>> to the dumping of packages as "depreciated". Depreciated - there's a
>> euphemism if I ever heard one. It reminds me of the use of the word
>> "Retirement" in Blade Runner.

>> It isn't Bluecurve or the instability or even the bloat that worries me.
> It
>> isn't the breaking of backwards compatibility either (gcc, XFree86). It
>> isn't even the exclusion of certain packages.

>> Its the motive.

>> As that ancient Chinese philosopher, Garth Algar, once said, "We fear
>> change."

>> I'm with Garth.

>> There's a part of me that respects Red Hat's desire to compete with
>> Microsoft. However, they've publicly stated that RH 8.0/Blucurve is *not*
> an
>> attempt to replace Windows on the desktop. So what *is* it then? Linux for
>> Lamers(R)?

>> I think the MP3 "thing" is a bigger clue than Blucurve. Troan concedes
> that
>> "It may not have been the legally necessary decision."

>> "... may not ..." ?

>> So the legal situation becomes "muddier" and Red Hat sells out? Jesus
> wept.

>> Hey, maybe the MPAA; DVD-CCA; DMCA; and WIPO are right, and that
>> Linux users do

...

read more »

 
 
 

Love Linux, Hate RedHat ... well Psyche anyway.

Post by -.- -.. ..... --- -.. » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 07:32:35


On Sun, 03 Nov 2002 10:49:00 +0000, [H]omer wrote:
> #!/bin/fud
> GodwinsLaw=0
> for AnyoneInterested in comp.os.linux.advocacy linux.redhat.install
> do
> if [ GodwinsLaw = 1 ]
> exit 1
> fi

> Hi,

> Let me start by saying that I am writing this from OE on Win98, since I'm
> having trouble installing RH (and I'm not at home so I don't have access to
> my other computers). So no flames please.

> I did have lots of questions, but a read through linux.redhat.install, RH
> Bugzilla, and various Google searches has pretty much answered those
> questions.

> Since I'm going to be inflicting you with my opinions, I think it only fair
> that I introduce myself (in an anonymous fashion!)

> Experience:
> Systems used (chronological order 1970's - present day)

> Commodore PET
> Apple IIE
> BBC A/B
> Sinclair ZX80/81/Spectrum
> Commodore Amiga (500/Plus/4000T)
> IBM AT/XT Compatibles (Various)
> VAX (VMS/Berkley Unix)

> Education:

> BSc Comp.Sci (Hons)
> Currently saving for RHCE course.

> Background:

> I'm a hoarder; I never throw anything away. This includes computer hardware.
> When I upgrade, the old bits get "archived" in a cupboard for a rainy day.
> When I collect enough old "bits" ... a new computer is born. So it goes with
> my latest project.

> Goal:

> Create a two-way multiboot system comprising:

> Windows 3.11 For Workgroups (to play my huge collection of legacy games)

> Linux (to fulfil whatever purpose is flavour of the month ... this month
> its "Backup Server" using a combination of NovaNet for regular files and dd
> + NFS for imaging.)

> Hardware:

> I realise the hardware involved here is hardly "bleeding edge" - that's not
> the point, the point is to recycle and "find a loving home for" unwanted
> bits. Some of the following hardware was specifically bought (second hand
> off eBay) just to complete the project (with Win311 compatibility / driver
> availability in mind)

> Mobo - PcChips M560 ALi Aladdin IV/IV+ Socket 7 (Yes, amazingly I actually
> managed to correctly identify a PcChips mobo)

> CPU - Classic Pentium 233 MX (586)

> VGA - Diamond Stealth 64 (S3 Trio64V+ PCI [765])

> Offboard IDE - Promise Ultra66

> HD - IBM "DeathStar" 21Gb (boot) and 76Gb (storage) respectively on the
> Promise controller.

> CD - TDK 16x10x40 CDRW on Ali M5229 IDE 0:0 Master

> NIC - Netgear FA310TX

> Tape - OnStream DI-30 on Ali M5229 IDE 0:1 Slave

> Audio - Creative SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

> Mouse, Keyboard etc of no consequence.

> Installation:

> Win311 - Smooth, no problems (Networked using TCP via router. File-sharing
> etc no problem)
> Win98SE - Ditto, only easier (all hardware enumerated straight out the box)
> (Note - I don't want Win98SE on this box, its a temporary measure until I
> find a resolution to the RH install problem)
> Red Hat 8.0 - Install failure (Everything Install), Unstable (Minimum
> Install)

> Opinion:

> My opinions are based on RH 8.0 installed on this system only. In a
> different setup, it is natural to assume that some of the issues raised
> would not exist at all/to the same extent.

> I've been reading with interest about a lot of people having problems with
> the install images. There's been a lot of talk about ftp corruption of ISOs
> via asc Vs bin download method. I have to say that I am also a victim of
> this, but not because I don't know how to type "bin" at the ftp> prompt.
> There seems to be a conspiracy of circumstances at work here. I, like many
> others, have been getting corrupt RH ISOs from many different servers. I
> have downloaded these ISO's using tools such as ftp, wget, curl, GetRight,
> WS_FTP and others, in different versions of different operating systems ...
> and all with the same result. This, combined with the fact that I have
> successfully downloaded many ISO's over the years (including RH ISO's) leads
> me to suspect that something stinks in suburbia. I finally found a set of
> ISO's that passed the md5 check, but the rest remains a mystery. To all
> those who have wasted many hours downloading corrupted ISO's - my sympathy.

> Unfortunately, it goes downhill from here.

> RH 8.0 simply will not install on this computer. Not without some long
> laborious effort - and even then it is not stable. The errors range from
> system freezes to panics and are reproducible. When I am finally offered
> some kind of core dump - it contains messages like "memory.c 117 bad pmd
> <hex number>" and "invalid path". For the longest time I was convinced I had
> a bad SDRAM, but it now turns out that its a problem with the CD itself. It
> seems that even when it passes the md5 check and RH's "mediacheck" there is
> still some obscure error on the disk that causes a lockup. I even considered
> the possibility that the CDRom drive was faulty/overheating (a common
> problem) but then I realised that surely it would have manifested during the
> Win98 install. I have tried different media too (some drives balk with
> certain media) ... but then so much of my other software (backups ... ahem)
> are on the same media and read on the same drive - without problem. I'm
> suspicious of isolinux. I'm also deeply suspicious of RH's "customised"
> kernel. There is more than the passing possibility that gcc3.2 has something
> to do with it (oh no not gcc problems again!). Whatever it is, all this is
> mere speculation (FUD alert), but the undeniable fact is it is affecting a
> huge number of people. So there.

> I did finally manage to get RH 8.0 installed, by opting for a minimum
> install then rpm'ing the remaining packages once logged on. Even then it
> took several attempts, since rpm periodically froze at random points,
> requiring a hard reset. I never did manage to verify all the packages since
> "rpm -va" bombed every time, but I do know that I was left with a system
> that was more unstable than Win98 on a very, very bad day.

> Stability issues aside (its subjective/speculative anyway), what do I think
> of RH 8.0?

> Erik Troan, Red Hat's director of product marketing, has said that he is
> "... waiting to see whether customers give [Bluecurve] a 'thumbs up,' or a
> 'thumbs down.'". Overall, I'd have to go with Caesar and give it a 'thumbs
> down'. It isn't that I don't like the pretty colours, or even that we have
> been stripped of freedom of choice in the name of "a consistent look and
> feel [which is] 'polished' and more '3D.'" Its more that the whole thing
> stinks to high Redmond.

> Let me mix a little politics with some psychology and see what we come up
> with:

> Microsoft. The Blue Team (the prevailing colour in their Operating Systems,
> and generally recognised as their "Team Colour". I believe Microsoft once
> tried to copyright the colour Blue, only to discover that Disney had beaten
> them to it.). Blue as in "right wing" or "capitalist". Advocating the ideals
> of Commerce; Profit; Greed; and Advancement through Corruption.
> The champion of proprietary, closed source, bloatware.

> Red Hat. The Red Team. Red as in "socialist" or even ... dare I say
> "communist" (McCarthy alert). Advocating the ideals of Freedom; Openness;
> Sharing; and Advancement through Co-operation. The champion of standards
> based, opensource, software.

> Bluecurve. Blue as in ... wait a minute ... blue? BLUE? Curve as in ...
> "U-Turn".

> Now look at the Bluecurve theme.

> Look again.

> Scary, isn't it?

> Now try to play an MP3 file, and after you've read the error message go over
> to http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_80mm.html and gasp in disbelief.

> Now ask Bernhard "bero" Rosenkraenzer why he resigned from Red Hat.

> Red Hat and Bluecurve in the same sentence! For those of you in the UK,
> you'll understand what I mean when I say "New Labour". See the connection.
> Why don't Red Hat go all the way and just rename the company "Microsoft II"?

> Ok, so I'm really, really reading between the lines now but ... I wonder.

> Now that fact that certain packages have been dumped is not of great concern
> to me. For example, gnorpm was always a dog, I don't think I ever managed to
> get it to work. I always preferred KPackage anyway (oh no, I used the "K"
> word, somebody call the RedHat police). And it makes me laugh how they refer
> to the dumping of packages as "depreciated". Depreciated - there's a
> euphemism if I ever heard one. It reminds me of the use of the word
> "Retirement" in Blade Runner.

> It isn't Bluecurve or the instability or even the bloat that worries me. It
> isn't the breaking of backwards compatibility either (gcc, XFree86). It
> isn't even the exclusion of certain packages.

> Its the motive.

> As that ancient Chinese philosopher, Garth Algar, once said, "We fear
> change."

> I'm with Garth.

> There's a part of me that respects Red Hat's desire to compete with
> Microsoft. However, they've publicly stated that RH 8.0/Blucurve is *not* an
> attempt to replace Windows on the desktop. So what *is* it then? Linux for
> Lamers(R)?

> I think the MP3 "thing" is a bigger clue than Blucurve. Troan concedes that
> "It may not have been the legally necessary decision."

> "... may not ..." ?

> So the legal situation becomes "muddier" and Red Hat sells out? Jesus wept.

> Hey, maybe the MPAA; DVD-CCA; DMCA; and WIPO are right, and that
> Linux users do not have the right to watch their legally purchased DVDs on
> their computers. Lets "depreciate" xine.

> Oh, and Evolution looks a lot like Outlook, let's "depreciate" that too.

> Can't Red Hat see, that the only thing they are "depreciating" is their
> userbase.

> I accept that Red Hat are probably only trying to fight Microsoft on their
> own terms ("keep it legit"), but they could at least wait until they are in
> the game before selling out to right-wing idealism.

> Then again, how "legit" have Microsoft ever been? Ask RealNetworks,
> Netscape or the US DOJ.

...

read more »