Very Computer

Maybe when you hit high school you'll realize that the MacOS allows
programmers to program down to the bare metal just like DOS does.  In
other words, the only advantage you can dredge up for DOS actually doesn't
exist.

Nathan Tennies
Bootstrap Enterprises Inc

Quote:> 2.  Apple did not invent the GUI.

Quote:>  HP invented it

You're probably thinking Xerox and that wouldn't be completely right either.

Quote:>and Apple bought it

Apple most certainly didn't buy a whole OS, and certainly not from HP.

Quote:> and Apple is still in court with MS about this.

Quote:> 3.  When win 3.1 came out it was not yet apparent that the MAC type GUI,
> ie MAC type characteristics, were a benefit to the end user.

Quote:> MS
> invested a hell of a lot of money into developing the 95 GUI.  They have
> not hid the fact that they borrowed from other operating systems in
> creating the 95 interface.  If you look you will find a lot of concepts
> from OS/2 and unix/motif/openlook interfaces.

alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc, alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.dos, alt.cracks,
alt.binaries.mac, alt.binaries.misc, alt.mindcontrol,
comp.sys.mac.advocacy, alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.linux.advocacy,
comp.os.msdos.misc, comp.unix.advocacy, comp.os.ms-windows.

Please trim your headers, this stuff doesn't belong in the binaries groups
or alt.mindcontrol.

*********************************************************************

"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft"?
                -- Christine Comaford, PC Week, 27/9/95
NB: The email address has changed but the old one still works.

 advocacy,alt.binaries.warez.mac
Followup-To: alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc,alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.dos,alt.cracks,alt.binaries.mac,alt.binaries.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows

 .advocacy,alt.binaries.warez.mac

Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:

: Oh boy, I'm going to have fun with this one, even though I'm no Mac user...

: >Well, mac users, it seems like you still don't get it. My job now is to make
: >you understand why DOS still has the edge over any GUI. First of all, ANY
: >graphically intense application (GAMES, mostly) runs > 50% faster in DOS than
: >any other system Windows, 95, MAC (joke). THIS IS A FACT. If you DONT believe
: >this, ask any programmer who does graphics. DOS is capable of sending graphics
: >directly to the monitor. GUI's do not, even with the use of Assembly. That's

: DOS cannot recognize anything beyond CGA 80x25 color text mode.

: And then there is the 16 bit BIOS---that's what all the studly programmers
: use for graphics, isn't it?  Those pixels just fly into the frame buffer
: when you call that putpixel interrupt!

: >why ALL (100%) of all the computer arcade hits first come out on the PC (DOS
: >platform most of time). Examples? Let's see... Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo,
: >Mortal Kombat's 1, 2, AND 3; TEKKEN, Virtua Fighter, ANY MAN MADE game that
: >makes an arcade smash immediately gets released on game platforms and the DOS.
: >DOS is also like a blind animal: It's as smart as its owner. I love my DOS,

: As smart as its owner. Now there I can agree.

: >even though I have a Pentium 133, 16 MB, 1.2 Gigs, with Win '95, I still boot
: >into DOS bypassing the GUI. Tell me an operating system that lets you format
: >the ENTIRE hard drive? Can't think of any? I didn't think so. Only DOS will.

: Wow, an operating system that lets you format the *entire drive*? Hmm, I
: will have to think hard about this one. I don't think it's DOS! I hear
: it has problems with large drives. Say, DOS doesn't happen to use a 16
: bit sector numbering scheme that forces you to create *huge* clusters on
: today's drives?

: DOS doesn't even have a decent interface for accessing a raw disk like
: Unix. In Unix I can copy one hard disk partition to another using the ordinary
: 'cp' command, or extract sectors with 'dd'.

: >Anyway, DOS is like Dot-Matrix printers - which are STILL the only impact
: >printers available, It's NEVER going to be out of style. It is the FASTEST and

: I haven't seen a dot matrix printer in years.

: >least resourceful OS available (All you need is approximately 3 megs). As far

: Least resourceful, agreed.

: >as flexibility - it is also the most flexible. So to any people that *

: Flexibility without reentrance! It's magic.
******THIS IS OFF TOPIC FOR ALT.2600 PLEASE TRIM YOUR NEWSGROUPS******
--

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.The courage
to change the things I can.And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=I had to kill because they pissed me off=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Why spend money on software when you got newsgroups...hmmmmmm.
mostly for pc......
        nuff said

)> advocacy,alt.binaries.warez.mac
)>Followup-To:
alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc,alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.dos,alt.cracks,alt.binaries.mac,alt.binaries.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows
)>
)> .advocacy,alt.binaries.warez.mac



)>Organization: Toronto Free-Net
)>Distribution:
)>


)>
)>: Oh boy, I'm going to have fun with this one, even though I'm no Mac
user...
)>
)>: >Well, mac users, it seems like you still don't get it. My job now is to
make
)>: >you understand why DOS still has the edge over any GUI. First of all, ANY
)>: >graphically intense application (GAMES, mostly) runs > 50% faster in DOS
than
)>: >any other system Windows, 95, MAC (joke). THIS IS A FACT. If you DONT
believe
)>: >this, ask any programmer who does graphics. DOS is capable of sending
graphics
)>: >directly to the monitor. GUI's do not, even with the use of Assembly.
That's
)>
)>: DOS cannot recognize anything beyond CGA 80x25 color text mode.

You dumb dogshit * mac user! If DOS was incapable of VGA & higher,
explain the arcade games to me.

)>
)>: And then there is the 16 bit BIOS---that's what all the studly programmers
)>: use for graphics, isn't it?  Those pixels just fly into the frame buffer
)>: when you call that putpixel interrupt!
)>
)>: >why ALL (100%) of all the computer arcade hits first come out on the PC
(DOS
)>: >platform most of time). Examples? Let's see... Super Street Fighter 2
Turbo,
)>: >Mortal Kombat's 1, 2, AND 3; TEKKEN, Virtua Fighter, ANY MAN MADE game
that
)>: >makes an arcade smash immediately gets released on game platforms and the
DOS.
)>: >DOS is also like a blind animal: It's as smart as its owner. I love my
DOS,
)>
)>: As smart as its owner. Now there I can agree.
)>

You still haven't explained why all arcade games come out on the PC's. Don't
run from the topic! What about the IBM to Mac software ratio of 15:1/2?

)>: >even though I have a Pentium 133, 16 MB, 1.2 Gigs, with Win '95, I still
boot
)>: >into DOS bypassing the GUI. Tell me an operating system that lets you
format
)>: >the ENTIRE hard drive? Can't think of any? I didn't think so. Only DOS
will.
)>
)>: Wow, an operating system that lets you format the *entire drive*? Hmm, I
)>: will have to think hard about this one. I don't think it's DOS! I hear
)>: it has problems with large drives. Say, DOS doesn't happen to use a 16
)>: bit sector numbering scheme that forces you to create *huge* clusters on
)>: today's drives?
)>

You are a real dumb * ain'tcha? I see you never had to understand what a
hard drive really is. Well, then, I don't have to talk about fragmentation
and/or the effects of it (You probably don't even know what it is - dumb
*up).

)>: DOS doesn't even have a decent interface for accessing a raw disk like
)>: Unix. In Unix I can copy one hard disk partition to another using the
ordinary
)>: 'cp' command, or extract sectors with 'dd'.

What's your problem? You use Unix and meanwhile you're using and defending a
*in' Mac? You're really confused ain'tcha?

)>
)>: >Anyway, DOS is like Dot-Matrix printers - which are STILL the only impact
)>: >printers available, It's NEVER going to be out of style. It is the
FASTEST and
)>
)>: I haven't seen a dot matrix printer in years.
)>

Well, working at a GAS STATION really doesn't expose you too much to Computer
Equipment, if you know what I mean!

)>: >least resourceful OS available (All you need is approximately 3 megs). As
far
)>
)>: Least resourceful, agreed.
)>
)>: >as flexibility - it is also the most flexible. So to any people that
*
)>
)>
)>: Flexibility without reentrance! It's magic.

Xplain yourself, you uncooperative *! Instead of rambling about SHIzniT
that don't make sense, xplain! You're a *ed up confused mac user.

)>******THIS IS OFF TOPIC FOR ALT.2600 PLEASE TRIM YOUR NEWSGROUPS******
)>--

)>Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.The courage
)>to change the things I can.And the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people
)>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=I had to kill because they pissed me off=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Quote:> What I hate every year you spend $1000 on the same software just
> buying upgrads. hehehehe This sucks

   Jinx_tigr
   (aka Chris Johnson)

Quote:> DOS is also like a blind animal:
> Anyway, DOS is like Dot-Matrix printers
> least resourceful OS available (All you need is approximately 3 megs)

   Jinx_tigr
   (aka Chris Johnson)

[ Headers trimmed substantially]

The whole idea of an OS started in the 1960s, long before microcomputers
were developed, long before either Microsoft or Apple was formed.  The
"Mac company", if you had a clue, is called "Apple", and it started
business in 1977.  The Apple had an operating system - also known as an
"OS" - simply called DOS, developed by Apple.  The version most Apple II
users are familar with was DOS 3.3.  Microsoft was in business back then,
but they had not developed an OS - what they were known for was their
BASIC interpreter, and Microsoft contributed to writing the AppleSoft
BASIC interpreter that shipped with every Apple II.

In other words, there were a whole slew of operating systems - mainframe
operating systems, minicomputer operating systems, as well as operating
systems for computers like the Apple II, C-64, TRS-80, as well as
operating systems like CPM - on which MS-DOS was based - before Microsoft
ever thought of creating an operating system.

It wasn't until a few years later, as IBM needed an operating system for
its IBM PC, that they turned to Microsoft.  Microsoft stil didn't have an
OS, and so they bought what became MS-DOS from another company.  In other
words, not only did Microsoft not invent the OS, they didn't even write
MS-DOS.

Three years after the release of the IBM PC, Apple released a successor to
the Apple II named the Macintosh, which had yet another operating system,
now known as the MacOS.

Quote:> the
> idea of the gui is from xerox.  some guys from mac saw a computer at
> xerox with gui and they just used that idea.  they actually copied a
> lot from that system at xerox.

Quote:> if ms was so horrible then
> why do you mac people want to have ms office and stuff like that?

Nathan Tennies
Bootstrap Enterprises Inc

Quote:> I agree that a few things in the Win95 OS were based on ideas and
> conceptions taken directly from the Mac, but...SO WHAT?!  If anything,
> MS took these ideas and features and IMPROVED upon them.  And now
> devoted Mac users resentfully point a finger at this fact, saying
> "SEE?!"  Their little feelings are hurt that these features were
> improved upon---by MS.  Again, I say: "SO WHAT."

Quote:> Lastly, one only has to walk into a store that sells both Mac and PC
> software (and/or computers) and look at the selection for the Mac and
> them compare it with the selection for the PC.  The Mac isles are
> always tiny and puny compared to the PC.  If I were a novice buying a
> computer today, THAT is *all* I would need to convince me that I
> should choose a PC over a Mac.

Quote:> Mac will go bankrupt.  It's only a matter of time.  And if all you
> devout Mac extremists don't like the way that sounds, it's time to
> move out of the state of denial, and face the truth.

Nathan Tennies
Bootstrap Enterprises Inc

|if you mac users ever look back the the whole idea of an OS is by
|microsoft.

OS's existed long before Bill Gates was in Diapers.

| ms came up with dos then the mac company started.

MS BOUGHT QD-DOS (which became PC-Dos/MS-Dos) from another company
(Seattle Computing) in 1980, and wasn't released until '81 or '82. It was
a rip-off of CP/M (but written for the 8086), which ran on many other
computers including an Apple][ (with a Z80 card). Apple had been selling
Apple]['s with their own DOS since '75. The Mac project started in '79. Do
the math, and read some history.

| the idea of the gui is from xerox.

The idea of UI's and GUI's predates Xerox. Xerox did do a lot of work and
helped inspire Apple. Thought the implementation of the Mac owes lots more
to Apple... and in fact the implementation of Windows owes more to the Mac
than to Xerox (especially considering the first Windows-lead was one of
MS's Mac application programmers).

|some guys from mac saw a computer at
|xerox with gui and they just used that idea. they actually copied a
|lot from that system at xerox.

Interesting that you don't point out that that guy (Raskin) helped write a
Paper on graphics engines about 8 years BEFORE PARC existed. And that the
Mac project existed BEFORE Jobs and some others went to Xerox-Parc.

Actually Apple used some broad concepts... but created many of their own.
They also created the implementation of the Mac, and the UI design
COMPLETELY on their own. They wrote the Mac OS in a different language, on
a different processor, without any references to the design or
implementation of the Xerox ALTO.  (MS created windows in a very similar
language as the Mac, and with the InsideMac documentation to explain
exactly how things were done).

Other innovations in concept that came out of Xerox? Postscript. Ethernet.
Smalltalk? FrameWorks? Yet the ivory tower designs didn't work well in the
real world, and needed to be productized (ick, using a Gates'ism)... most
of those things didn't work until the people LEFT Xerox and create their
own companies, or went to other companies (like Apple).

|  besides if macs were so good as you
|people claim they are then why are companies loading up the industry
|with mac software.  games almost always come out for the pc first.
|just take doom for instance.  it was about a year after the release
|for the pc then it came out for the mac.

This argument is stupid. Where did doom come from? Castle Wolfenstien 3D.
Where did that come from? Answer - 2D wolfenstien which was on Macs and
Apple]['s about 8 years earlier... combined with 3-D net games like
MazeWars which existed 8 or 10 years earlier on Macs as well. In fact
net-games were popularize much sooner, as were perspective net games. Also
by the time doom came out, there were other similar games on the Mac, that
the PC people don't know of because they weren't available on the PC.

The best of genre game is still the Bungie stuff... which is just about to
be released for the PC (many years after the Mac).

So it is true that SOME games are released first on the PC. But it is also
true that some games are released first (or only) on the Mac.

|if ms was so horrible then
|why do you mac people want to have ms office and stuff like that?

I don't. But a companies products and their ethics are different. I've
liked many products from companies/people who I completely disagree with
morally/philisophically. The company can be horible and turn out an
occasional product.... MS and Office is not a good example of this, as
office is a bloated piece of shit that is not often bought by individuals
but by corporations.

Also realize that companies have many divisions... just because 90% of the
products they produce are crap, does not mean they can't make a good one
(or at least mediocro) in some satelite office. An example is MS and
Internet Exploder.... while it is crashy, it is pretty good - though I
still prefer OpenDoc. If I felt the need to comply, then I would still go
with Netscape. But as far as the level of inferiority, Exploder is one of
the least inferior products MS has peddled of late.

|  you
|even have a dos card to run dos and windows stuff.  there isn't no mac
|card to to use for the pc.  

Exactly... shows you which machine is more versitile.
--
David K. Every
MacKiDo Warrior - The Power of the Macintosh Way!
--
?1996 DKE. Non-exclusive, royalty free license to distribute is granted to any service provider except Microsoft. By distributing this, Microsoft agrees to pay $1,000 per posting.

Sometimes I think that these repetitive, ignorant anti-Mac posts are
generated from a how-to book.

(You know, step 1, compare shelf space; step 2, say Macs are inflexible
and crash-prone; step 3, complain that such-and-such a shoot-em-up game
isn't out for the PC; step 4, claim that Macs are only significant in
education and "graphics", forgetting audio, video, and
scientific/engineering applications).

Quote:> Mac will go bankrupt.  It's only a matter of time.  And if all you
> devout Mac extremists don't like the way that sounds, it's time to
> move out of the state of denial, and face the truth.

Oh, and by the way, "Mac" isn't a company, Apple is.

If Macs are dead, why is Microsoft hiring Mac programmers to write
Mac-only Internet applications, working out of San Jose (MacWeek 10 June
p.12, 24 June p.20, 18 June p. 18)?

If Macs are dead, why has IBM licenced the Mac OS?
And in case you didn't know, most of Apple's recent troubles have been
inability to supply the existing demand (quality problems with PowerBooks
being a significant part of this).

Of course, people like the previous poster don't know how to read a
balance sheet any more than they know how to trim headers.

Luci

*********************************************************************

"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft"?
                -- Christine Comaford, PC Week, 27/9/95
NB: The email address has changed but the old one still works.

I apologise for the cross-posting, but I don't know where this guy is
posting from. I trimmed out alt.mindcontrol and alt.2600 since I figured
they weren't from there. Followups trimmed severely.

Quote:> ms came up with dos then the mac company started.

Except Macs don't USE DOS, stupid.

Anyway, Apple was founded in the mid-1970s, long before DOS came out. They
started working on making Macs in 1979, but didn't release them till 1984.

Quote:> the
> idea of the gui is from xerox.

Quote:>  some guys from mac saw a computer at
> xerox with gui and they just used that idea.  they actually copied a
> lot from that system at xerox.

Quote:>  besides if macs were so good as you
> people claim they are then why are companies loading up the industry
> with mac software.  

If you mean brining out Mac-first software in similar proportions to
PC-first software, you'd be right  (-:

Quote:>games almost always come out for the pc first.

Quote:> just take doom for instance.

Quote:>  it was about a year after the release
> for the pc then it came out for the mac.  if ms was so horrible then
> why do you mac people want to have ms office and stuff like that?  

Quote:>you
> even have a dos card to run dos and windows stuff.

Quote:>  there isn't no mac
> card to to use for the pc.  MAC JUST SUCK!!!

And trim the headers next time, kid!

*********************************************************************

"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft"?
                -- Christine Comaford, PC Week, 27/9/95
NB: The email address has changed but the old one still works.

Quote:>Sometimes I think that these repetitive, ignorant anti-Mac posts are
>generated from a how-to book.

Quote:>(You know, step 1, compare shelf space;

Quote:>step 2, say Macs are inflexible
>and crash-prone;

As far as inflexibility, if you are referring to selection of various
types of upgrades and hardware, this would be accurate.  However it is
basically a trade-off.  What do you want more?  A huge selection at
lower prices with more involved installation processes or a smaller
selection at higher prices and easier install?  This is somewhat
subjective.

Of course inflexibilty could refer to a more limited choice of OS
which also has tradeoffs.

Quote:>If Macs are dead, why is Microsoft hiring Mac programmers to write
>Mac-only Internet applications, working out of San Jose (MacWeek 10 June
>p.12, 24 June p.20, 18 June p. 18)?

Quote:>If Macs are dead, why has IBM licenced the Mac OS?

Quote:>And in case you didn't know, most of Apple's recent troubles have been
>inability to supply the existing demand (quality problems with PowerBooks
>being a significant part of this).

~~~Golf Tip:  Don't pick up a lost ball until it stops rolling~~~o

Home Page - http://www.castlegate.net/personals/kdavis
Standard Disclaimer    (Win95 Tips, sound bites, and more!)

[The following inappropriate or duplicated newsgroups were trimmed:
 alt.2600hz, alt.binaries.mac, alt.binaries.misc,
 alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc, alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.dos,
 alt.binaries.warez.mac, alt.cracks, alt.folklore.computers, and
 alt.mindcontrol.  One is given to wonder whether it's brain-dead
 newsreader software or its user.  To the latter: get a clue.]

I wonder if this is a troll???  Oh well, it's been a quiet day,
so...

[Entering the realm of idle speculation, one is given to wonder
 if people like "merlin" are not either: 1) people being paid to
 spout this kind of nonsense, or 2) in reality, a "nonsense-bot".
 Either one having the same objective: repeat this kind of thing
 far, wide, and frequently enough, and maybe it'll become "fact".]

Quote:>            ms came up with dos then the mac company started.

[snip]

Quote:>               ...  games almost always come out for the pc first.

[snip]

Quote:>                                     ...  if ms was so horrible then
>why do you mac people want to have ms office and stuff like that?

You don't suppose it has anything to do with non-technical
executives seeing slick commercials and adverts making technical
decisions based on them, could it?

It couldn't be a certain large software company giving-away
product until it's becomes the "standard" (not to be confused
with true open standards), thus locking the resulting *s
in to them, could it?

Nah.  It must be technical superiority.  Yeah!  *That's* the
ticket.  (Say it often enough, and...)

Quote:>                                                                   you
>even have a dos card to run dos and windows stuff.  there isn't no mac
>card to to use for the pc.

Quote:>                            MAC JUST SUCK!!!

[big snip]

Regards,
Jim "nope, don't own, nor use, Macs" Seymour
--
Jim Seymour                     | "Try moving off NT easily.  You can move from

Systems & Network Administrator |  relative to moving off of NT, which is like
Medar, Inc., 38700 Grand River  |  a Roach Motel.  Once you check in, you never
Ave., Farmington Hills, MI.     |  check out."  Scott McNealy, Sun Microsystems

writes: > >if you mac users ever look back the the whole idea of an OS
is by > >microsoft. > Actually, Bill Gates took the idea of an central
OS to IBM and you will find that it was IBM who made it.  Even when
Microsoft made DOS IMB had features that took speacial advantage of
enhancements they made to their intel like processors.

Quote:> >            ms came up with dos then the mac company started.