Very Computer

by **David Rudd** » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

I just saw the GGI 0.0.9 release notes and have a question. It says
that GGI supports multi-headed displays and specifically mentions
having 2 S3's working together.

I thought you couldn't do this with PC hardware because of IRQ
conflicts and whatnot. Hardware problems.

How can GGI do this when everyone else says its impossible? What kind
of magic is being used? Does it work with all S3 968s?

-Dave Rudder

by **Preston F. Cr** » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:>I just saw the GGI 0.0.9 release notes and have a question. It says
>that GGI supports multi-headed displays and specifically mentions
>having 2 S3's working together.
>I thought you couldn't do this with PC hardware because of IRQ
>conflicts and whatnot. Hardware problems.

With ISA cards, that was true. You could have one monochrome card,
and one color card without conflicting, which could be nice for having
X and a console up at the same time (I think Borland took advantage of
this back in the DOS days for their de*, so you could have the
source visible while running the program on the other monitor).
However, all ISA VGA cards had hardwired stuff (memory addresses,
IRQs, IO ports, or other stuff) that prevented you from having
multiple cards.

PCI changed all that. While some cards may be * and have some
hardwired stuff, in general that's not the case. (My guess is that
this is because PCI cards are designed to run on a variety of
PCI-compatible systems, such as Mac, PC, and Alpha.)

I've heard talk of multi-headed systems without GGI, but they usually
required comercial X servers and identical cards. GGI is the first
that I've heard of having multiple keyboards supported.

But since PCI graphics cards are on the way out (assuming AGP goes as
expected), I'm curious if it's possible to have multi-headed AGP
systems. Does AGP even allow for multiple cards?

--PC

--
The position and/or opinions in the above message are those of the Board of
Trustees of Dartmouth College. Copyright (c) 1997. All right reserved. The
above positions are also held by Newt Gingrich, many foriegn world leaders, and
you who are reading them. Preston bears no responsibility for the content.

by **Eric Lem** » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

: But since PCI graphics cards are on the way out (assuming AGP goes as
: expected), I'm curious if it's possible to have multi-headed AGP
: systems. Does AGP even allow for multiple cards?

AGP only supports one card total per machine, so no.

eric

by **Marcus Sundber** » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> I've heard talk of multi-headed systems without GGI, but they usually
> required comercial X servers and identical cards. GGI is the first
> that I've heard of having multiple keyboards supported.

> But since PCI graphics cards are on the way out (assuming AGP goes as
> expected), I'm curious if it's possible to have multi-headed AGP
> systems. Does AGP even allow for multiple cards?

All MB's I've seen have only one AGP port, but that doesn't mean it's
not possible to have several of them.

And PCI gfxcards will not dissapear until there is a way to have
multiheaded AGP, and even then they will probably hang on for
quite some time.

//Marcus
--
-------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Marcus Sundberg | WWW: http://www.e.kth.se/~e94_msu/
Royal Institute of Technology | E-Mail:

by **Steffen Seeg** » Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:00:00

>>I just saw the GGI 0.0.9 release notes and have a question. It says
>>that GGI supports multi-headed displays and specifically mentions
>>having 2 S3's working together.
>>I thought you couldn't do this with PC hardware because of IRQ
>>conflicts and whatnot. Hardware problems.
>With ISA cards, that was true. You could have one monochrome card,
>and one color card without conflicting, which could be nice for having
>X and a console up at the same time (I think Borland took advantage of
>this back in the DOS days for their de*, so you could have the
>source visible while running the program on the other monitor).
>However, all ISA VGA cards had hardwired stuff (memory addresses,
>IRQs, IO ports, or other stuff) that prevented you from having
>multiple cards.

Actually, there are systems that have three or more VGA cards in one PC,
but these are very special solutions. (A friend of mine has one of these
gadgets.)

Quote:>I've heard talk of multi-headed systems without GGI, but they usually
>required comercial X servers and identical cards. GGI is the first
>that I've heard of having multiple keyboards supported.
>But since PCI graphics cards are on the way out (assuming AGP goes as
>expected), I'm curious if it's possible to have multi-headed AGP
>systems. Does AGP even allow for multiple cards?

It does not allow for multiple AGP cards (as with 66MHz bus clock
there seem to be some timing problems with the usual connectors).
But you can still use normal PCI cards in parallel. You would not have
the same performance for 3D texture stuff, so I would reserve the
AGP card for a 3D accelerator, but the 'old' PCI cards should still
work.

Quote:>--PC
>--
>The position and/or opinions in the above message are those of the Board of
>Trustees of Dartmouth College. Copyright (c) 1997. All right reserved. The
>above positions are also held by Newt Gingrich, many foriegn world leaders, and
>you who are reading them. Preston bears no responsibility for the content.

by **Rodolphe Orta** » Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> I just saw the GGI 0.0.9 release notes and have a question. It says
> that GGI supports multi-headed displays and specifically mentions
> having 2 S3's working together.

> I thought you couldn't do this with PC hardware because of IRQ
> conflicts and whatnot. Hardware problems.

> How can GGI do this when everyone else says its impossible? What kind
> of magic is being used? Does it work with all S3 968s?

Well, this is true : accessing VGA registers for mode setup is done
in a fixed-address IO memory area and this prevents multiple cards to be
managed (I oversimplify deliberately).

However, several tricks can be used in order to obtain a multi-head
display. The one used in GGI is mainly to use MMIO (memory-mapped io)
regions that are, on the contrary of fixed VGA access memory, relocatable.
When one card can be programmed completely (except in the very early
initialization time) using MMIO registers, it is possible to have
several of these cards up and running in the computer. (Or, to have
one card programmed via MMIO, and another via VGA regs.)

However, this implies also that the GGI card driver be programmed for
multi-head (ie: capable of managing card-specific setup, and card-
specific mmio regions, and also some other card-specific ressources).
Not all the GGI drivers are ready for this, the S3 drivers are the
most advanced ones (because they have been written by one of the main
GGI developper, Steffen Seeger) and are ready for that. Of course,
the whole GGI system also allows such multi-head display (and
this is one of its unique features). Steffen has been successfully
running a two-headed computer for more than 10 months now (and he
says that it is very useful for debugging to have redundant
outputs... :-).

Of course, if cards do not provide MMIO registers (for all the
important registers), you can't have more than one in a computer...
But most modern cards do. Other technical details may preclude their
use in multi-head config, but well, first we have to adapt all the
drivers. The next ones that is the most advanced in this area are
the Matrox drivers (but they are not completely ready for that yet).

Concerning multiple keyboards and multiple mouses, this is due to
the new console code that allows several inputs to be managed
correctly and directed to the adequate (virtual) console. The forthcoming
EvStack system to be included in GGI 0.0.10 (code named "degas")
will be even more flexible and will allow any kind of device to
be attached to a console (such as: mouse emulation with a joystick,
or speech input, or joystick emulation with a SpaceOrb 360, or mouse
emulation via a joystick emulation via a SpaceOrb 360, or, maybe even
brainwaves analysis for irc sessions you never know...:-)

Rodolphe

by **Joseph I. Valenzue** » Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> > I just saw the GGI 0.0.9 release notes and have a question. It says
> > that GGI supports multi-headed displays and specifically mentions
> > having 2 S3's working together.

> > I thought you couldn't do this with PC hardware because of IRQ
> > conflicts and whatnot. Hardware problems.

> > How can GGI do this when everyone else says its impossible? What kind
> > of magic is being used? Does it work with all S3 968s?

> Well, this is true : accessing VGA registers for mode setup is done
> in a fixed-address IO memory area and this prevents multiple cards to be
> managed (I oversimplify deliberately).

> However, this implies also that the GGI card driver be programmed for
> multi-head (ie: capable of managing card-specific setup, and card-
> specific mmio regions, and also some other card-specific ressources).
> Not all the GGI drivers are ready for this, the S3 drivers are the
> most advanced ones (because they have been written by one of the main
> GGI developper, Steffen Seeger) and are ready for that. Of course,
> the whole GGI system also allows such multi-head display (and
> this is one of its unique features). Steffen has been successfully
> running a two-headed computer for more than 10 months now (and he
> says that it is very useful for debugging to have redundant
> outputs... :-).

Is there a HOWTO or some sort of documentation for setting up a
multi-headed system? I've grepped through all the available docs (ie,
those that ship with the ggi 0.9 dist) and haven't found anything
sufficiently lucid to compensate for my (admittedly) weak
understanding. Hitting dejanews/altavista has similarly turned up a
dearth of applicable information.

I tried compiling two ggidrv.o modules, giving each a unique name and
loading them by hand (passing pcidev and pcibus as options), and while
I can load the module for my primary VGA device (Diamond Stealth 64),
I cannot for my secondary card (Diamond Stealth 3D 2000, ViRGE
chipset). It complains about init_module, and claims it cannot detect
the ViRGE chipset.

For the record:
Linux 2.0.33
glibc (ships with Redhat 5.0, latest errata installed as well).
ggi 0.9

Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM -- S3 964 (primary VGA)
Diamond Stealth 3d 2000 -- S3 ViRGE (in machine).

I'm using the 14 inch SVGA monitor profile.

Any pointers to information would be greatly appreciated.

--

by **Christopher Brow** » Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:00:00

On 14 Jan 1998 12:59:28 -0800, Joseph I. Valenzuela

>I tried compiling two ggidrv.o modules, giving each a unique name and
>loading them by hand (passing pcidev and pcibus as options), and while
>I can load the module for my primary VGA device (Diamond Stealth 64),
>I cannot for my secondary card (Diamond Stealth 3D 2000, ViRGE
>chipset). It complains about init_module, and claims it cannot detect
>the ViRGE chipset.

>For the record:
>Linux 2.0.33
>glibc (ships with Redhat 5.0, latest errata installed as well).
>ggi 0.9

>Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM -- S3 964 (primary VGA)
>Diamond Stealth 3d 2000 -- S3 ViRGE (in machine).

>I'm using the 14 inch SVGA monitor profile.

>Any pointers to information would be greatly appreciated.

The "Stealth 3D 2000" uses the "S3 325" chipset, doesn't it? I don't
think GGI knows how to talk to those at this point. (Rather
unfortunate. I've got two S3 325 cards, one of which is not presently
in use at all...)

--
"...Deep Hack Mode--that mysterious and frightening state of
consciousness where Mortal Users fear to tread." (By Matt Welsh)

by **James Youngma** » Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Christopher> The "Stealth 3D 2000" uses the "S3 325" chipset,
Christopher> doesn't it? I don't think GGI knows how to talk to
Christopher> those at this point. (Rather unfortunate. I've got
Christopher> two S3 325 cards, one of which is not presently in use
Christopher> at all...)

I have an S3/801 and it doesn't seem to work either but then I'm not a
supervga graphics hardware guru, so I can't fix it either :-(

by **Christopher Brow** » Sat, 17 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> Christopher> The "Stealth 3D 2000" uses the "S3 325" chipset,
> Christopher> doesn't it? I don't think GGI knows how to talk to
> Christopher> those at this point. (Rather unfortunate. I've got
> Christopher> two S3 325 cards, one of which is not presently in use
> Christopher> at all...)

>I have an S3/801 and it doesn't seem to work either but then I'm not a
>supervga graphics hardware guru, so I can't fix it either :-(

After rechecking the documentation, it is indeed the case that GGI
doesn't grok the S3 325 chipset, and probably a variety of other
members of the S3 family.

Which continues to leave us in the state where GGI is interesting to
some users, but due to the limited hardware compatibility list (and I'm
not griping because I'm not supported; merely observing) it is not quite
ready for "prime time." Hopefully there will be either an increase in
interest in GGI so as to result in lots of new graphics cards, or an
increase in volunteers to work on XFree86 servers...

--

Quote:>Ever heard of .cshrc?

That's a city in Bosnia. Right?
(Discussion in comp.os.linux.misc on the intuitiveness of commands.)

by **James Youngma** » Sat, 17 Jan 1998 04:00:00

cbb> After rechecking the documentation, it is indeed the case that
cbb> GGI doesn't grok the S3 325 chipset, and probably a variety of
cbb> other members of the S3 family.

cbb> Which continues to leave us in the state where GGI is
cbb> interesting to some users, but due to the limited hardware
cbb> compatibility list (and I'm not griping because I'm not
cbb> supported; merely observing) it is not quite ready for "prime
cbb> time." Hopefully there will be either an increase in interest
cbb> in GGI so as to result in lots of new graphics cards, or an
cbb> increase in volunteers to work on XFree86 servers...

I'm quite eager to contribute *something* towards it, but can't,
really, until it supports the only card I have.

by **Joseph I. Valenzue** » Sat, 17 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> > Christopher> The "Stealth 3D 2000" uses the "S3 325" chipset,
> > Christopher> doesn't it? I don't think GGI knows how to talk to
> > Christopher> those at this point. (Rather unfortunate. I've got
> > Christopher> two S3 325 cards, one of which is not presently in use
> > Christopher> at all...)

> >I have an S3/801 and it doesn't seem to work either but then I'm not a
> >supervga graphics hardware guru, so I can't fix it either :-(

> After rechecking the documentation, it is indeed the case that GGI
> doesn't grok the S3 325 chipset, and probably a variety of other
> members of the S3 family.

Hmmm. I saw the ViRGE (ie, S3 325) chipset option in the driver
portion of the configuration. I lessed my way through virge.c and the
comments seemed to indicate *some* level of functionality.

I'd just like to know if multi-headed displays are *possible* with my
setup, and if so, what the procedures are to enable multiple displays
across different types of cards. Even assuming that I have two
well-supported multi-head capable cards (MGA?), I haven't found a
source of info on how to set it up.

I'm not looking to be hand-held --- I'd just like to know where such
info exists.

--

by **Nix** » Sat, 17 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> After rechecking the documentation, it is indeed the case that GGI
> doesn't grok the S3 325 chipset, and probably a variety of other
> members of the S3 family.

... like the S3 911/924 (last time I looked). These chips are old and crappy,
but they're what I've got :)

--
`-o***helpaarghNoNoAargh*NONOAARGH-' - The Great God Om

by **Erik Peterse** » Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> > > I just saw the GGI 0.0.9 release notes and have a question. It says
> > > that GGI supports multi-headed displays and specifically mentions
> > > having 2 S3's working together.

> > > I thought you couldn't do this with PC hardware because of IRQ
> > > conflicts and whatnot. Hardware problems.

> > > How can GGI do this when everyone else says its impossible? What kind
> > > of magic is being used? Does it work with all S3 968s?

> > Well, this is true : accessing VGA registers for mode setup is done
> > in a fixed-address IO memory area and this prevents multiple cards to be
> > managed (I oversimplify deliberately).

Multi-headedness is ultimately a matter of disabling VGA on all but one
of the cards. Most advanced adapters have a jumper or such to disable
the VGA. I've run multi-headed on X with two Millenium's. I can't
comment on the software intrinsics of GGI but this does answer an
earlier point.

Erik.

by **Marcus Sundber** » Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:00:00

> > Christopher> The "Stealth 3D 2000" uses the "S3 325" chipset,
> > Christopher> doesn't it? I don't think GGI knows how to talk to
> > Christopher> those at this point. (Rather unfortunate. I've got
> > Christopher> two S3 325 cards, one of which is not presently in use
> > Christopher> at all...)

> >I have an S3/801 and it doesn't seem to work either but then I'm not a
> >supervga graphics hardware guru, so I can't fix it either :-(

> After rechecking the documentation, it is indeed the case that GGI
> doesn't grok the S3 325 chipset, and probably a variety of other
> members of the S3 family.

> Which continues to leave us in the state where GGI is interesting to
> some users, but due to the limited hardware compatibility list (and I'm
> not griping because I'm not supported; merely observing) it is not quite
> ready for "prime time."

No it isn't ready for "prime time", but nobody ever said it was.
In the 0.0.9 release we consider the userlevel library libggi as
alpha, and the kernel part kgi as very pre-alpha.

Right now heavy working is being done on the new kernel part, EvStack.
This will feature backwards compability with SVGAlib and XFree servers,
as well as a complete redesign of console managment.

//Marcus
--
-------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Marcus Sundberg | WWW: http://www.e.kth.se/~e94_msu/
Royal Institute of Technology | E-Mail:

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