Very Computer

by **Federico Ferrere** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:20:11

In a recent discussion about developers running out of money (arch,
perl) and what can we do for helping them I can up with an idea. I'd
like to share it with anyone in the list even though it'll probably be
disregarded or flamed. The Kernel may well be nicely funded, because of
companies supported. But that's not always the case, and the schema just
fails in a lot of key areas of OSS.

Why post it here then? Because for it to work it must be supported by
at least some of the grand developements of OSS.

Here's the actual idea, which actually is a slashdot repost

Re:Isn't dual-licensing with the GPL perfect for t (Score:2)

(User #525414 Info | http://www.arrancar.com/)

Yes, but that underfunds the projects. You can see this clearly when
Microsoft can sell lots of buggy software and of the best OSS developers
can't earn a decent salary.

I'd love to see a new license, that could be called the fGPL. That would
be the "Funded GPL". To be able to use fGPLd programs you'll HAVE to
contribute some small amount of money to the fGPL foundation. You'll not
be required to pay for any individual fGPL software, just a plain simple
yearly $10 or $20 charge. And you will be able to distribute exactly
where that money goes, among all the different projects. If you can't
pay $20 a year it will be no problem, just a bit penalty: all fGPL
software would be free as in beer once the year passes (old releases).

The money paid to the developers would only cover salaries and some
expenses that are needing to continue developement. So if any proyect
gets over-funded, you'll be noticed that you must reasign some of your
credits.

It'd always be free as in freedom. We only need to bring some beer for
that to happen. It'll also kill the anti OSS argument that the system is
for comunists or anti-american. I know that is FUD, but do your
representatives know that? It will also kill most of the other FUD
targeted at OSS and will also bust developement to unknown levels.

What do we need for this to happen?

To have the Linux Kernel, the Red Hat distro, mplayer, X and gcc (for
example, could be others as well) adopting the fGPL for the next
releases. After that, we'll see most every GPLd program adopting the
fGPL. After that, you'll start to see how much sense it made to pay $20
a year. And even the ones that can't pay (if any) will be able to use
the software (though 1 year old, but their hardware si severla years old
for sure).

This is my opinion. I'd gladly pay the $20, as long as EVERYONE ELSE
pays their $20. That's why we don't see many donations now: because you
have this felling everyone else is just waiting for a fool like you to
contribute to project X in order to save it.

------------- end -------------

Thanks for everything and to everyone here!

Federico

pd: Please CC if you need my reply as I am not on the list

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by **Robinson Maureira Castill** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:30:11

Quote:
> What do we need for this to happen?

> To have the Linux Kernel, the Red Hat distro, mplayer, X and gcc (for
> example, could be others as well) adopting the fGPL for the next
> releases. After that, we'll see most every GPLd program adopting the
> fGPL. After that, you'll start to see how much sense it made to pay $20
> a year. And even the ones that can't pay (if any) will be able to use
> the software (though 1 year old, but their hardware si severla years old
> for sure).

So, if I have a cheap/buggy motherboard and its faulty behavior is fixed
with a new kernel release last week, I don't have those $20... I have to wait
a year for a fix? I don't think so...

Regards
--
Robinson Maureira Castillo
Asesor DAI
INACAP

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by **Larry McVo** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:50:07

> I'd love to see a new license, that could be called the fGPL. That would
> be the "Funded GPL". To be able to use fGPLd programs you'll HAVE to
> contribute some small amount of money to the fGPL foundation. You'll not
> be required to pay for any individual fGPL software, just a plain simple
> yearly $10 or $20 charge. And you will be able to distribute exactly
> where that money goes, among all the different projects. If you can't
> pay $20 a year it will be no problem, just a bit penalty: all fGPL
> software would be free as in beer once the year passes (old releases).

> This is my opinion. I'd gladly pay the $20, as long as EVERYONE ELSE
> pays their $20. That's why we don't see many donations now: because you
> have this felling everyone else is just waiting for a fool like you to
> contribute to project X in order to save it.

If this model could be enforced, i.e., everyone had to pay, then this
would indeed be a revolutionary change to how software is developed.
It would bring in more than enough money.

One problem I see is that you'd be talking a huge amount of money,
potentially money on Microsoft scale. Managing that money, making
it go to the right places, without it sticking to the fingers of
management, isn't likely to happen. You'd need a real corporate
structure to do this and I suspect it would fail because noone would
trust them to do the right thing. There are plenty of people who
don't trust the FSF now. Imagine what the feeling would be if
$2B/year were headed their way.

One possible answer is to make each program its own profit and loss
center or corporation. But now you have to send $20 to the kernel.com
people and $20 to the apache.com people and $20 to ...

Another problem is that GPLed software is essentially software in the
public domain. Many people in many parts of the world will not obey
the license and will just stop shipping the source. Yes, you can
catch and pressure some of them, but you'll not catch the majority
of them, just the dumb ones. We found this out with BitKeeper,
people downloaded the source and promptly removed the openlogging
feature, even checking in a changeset with comments like "Disable
that stupid openlogging feature". You couldn't find a more blatent
violation of our license if you tried, but that doesn't stop people
from doing it.

The problem looks pretty intractable to me. I'm glad you are thinking
about it, I'd much prefer a world that was closer to open source than
to Microsoft. I've thought about it a lot and my attempts have pretty
much failed, so it's encouraging to see someone else thinking hard
about this.
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
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by **Alexander Vir** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:10:06

> to Microsoft. I've thought about it a lot and my attempts have pretty
> much failed, so it's encouraging to see someone else thinking hard
> about this.

Larry, what the hell are you smoking? It's a repost from tabloid, for
fsck sake - clearly says so in the beginning. Thinking is, indeed, hard
for these guys, but what's encouraging about that?

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by **Larry McVo** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:10:11

> > to Microsoft. I've thought about it a lot and my attempts have pretty
> > much failed, so it's encouraging to see someone else thinking hard
> > about this.

> Larry, what the hell are you smoking? It's a repost from tabloid, for
> fsck sake - clearly says so in the beginning. Thinking is, indeed, hard
> for these guys, but what's encouraging about that?

Even tabloids can have good content, though I agree it's rare.
After watching all the dot com and open source companies take a
dive when it became apparent that no business model == no business,
it's somewhat nice to see someone besides myself trying to figure out
an answer which is actually sustainable. It's not an enjoyable thing,
everyone hates you if you don't work all day long on their problems
for free, but it's a good topic for further thought.

I think that the guy is on the right track, I've frequently described
software sales as similar to insurance, noone pays what it actually costs
to handle the problem, everyone pays a little and the cost is spread
out over everyone. The more people who pay, the less each has to pay,
and that seems to be his message. I agree with that. He's basically
right in theory, the problem is putting it into practice looks hard
or impossible. But maybe someone will figure out a way, so I'm
trying to be encouraging.

Consider this my obligatory, once a year, "that's a good idea" post.
Intended to balance out the zillion other posts saying "that's braindead". :)
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
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by **Cort Douga** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:20:06

"Bat-Boy creates open-source project"

After defeating the evil-doers of the world Bat-Boy has taken up another
cause - titanic software companies. He vows to tirelessly create
sourceforge.net projects one after another until the sheer weight of them
collapses onto, and crushes, Microsoft.

"What's our business model?", asked Bat-Boy through a translator. "I eat
vermine and insects so I don't need much money. When I do need money, I
sell photos of myself to tabloids".

Bat-Boy, you do us all proud!

} Even tabloids can have good content, though I agree it's rare.
} After watching all the dot com and open source companies take a
} dive when it became apparent that no business model == no business,
} it's somewhat nice to see someone besides myself trying to figure out
} an answer which is actually sustainable. It's not an enjoyable thing,
} everyone hates you if you don't work all day long on their problems
} for free, but it's a good topic for further thought.
}
} I think that the guy is on the right track, I've frequently described
} software sales as similar to insurance, noone pays what it actually costs
} to handle the problem, everyone pays a little and the cost is spread
} out over everyone. The more people who pay, the less each has to pay,
} and that seems to be his message. I agree with that. He's basically
} right in theory, the problem is putting it into practice looks hard
} or impossible. But maybe someone will figure out a way, so I'm
} trying to be encouraging.
}
} Consider this my obligatory, once a year, "that's a good idea" post.
} Intended to balance out the zillion other posts saying "that's braindead". :)
} --
} ---
} Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
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} To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in

} More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
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by **Larry McVo** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:30:07

Wasn't there a South Park episode making fun of the dot coms where they
were starting a business and someone asked about the plan and they said

Step 1: Idea
Step 2: Err...
Step 3: Make money

Or something like that. Where ever it was, it was pretty funny, it was
quite obvious that the vast majority of the failures could be traced
to a lack of a step 2. Seems so simple, doesn't it?

> "Bat-Boy creates open-source project"

--
---
Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm
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by **Cort Douga** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:30:11

http://www.fool.com/news/foth/2001/foth011108.htm

} Wasn't there a South Park episode making fun of the dot coms where they
} were starting a business and someone asked about the plan and they said
}
} Step 1: Idea
} Step 2: Err...
} Step 3: Make money
}
} Or something like that. Where ever it was, it was pretty funny, it was
} quite obvious that the vast majority of the failures could be traced
} to a lack of a step 2. Seems so simple, doesn't it?
}

} > "Bat-Boy creates open-source project"
}
} --
} ---
} Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitmover.com/lm

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by **Federico Ferrere** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 04:50:08

> So, if I have a cheap/buggy motherboard and its faulty behavior is fixed
> with a new kernel release last week, I don't have those $20... I have to wait
> a year for a fix? I don't think so...

You can chose to assign your money _whenever_ you want (you have 1 year
flexibility).

Project could open a "feature requests" if they like. Some of these
could work in a "reward" fashion. A reward could look like this:
"whoever finishes a working driver for <insert card> gets <sum of funds
offered by members>".

Federico

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by **Robinson Maureira Castill** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:00:17

Quote:
> You can chose to assign your money _whenever_ you want (you have 1 year
> flexibility).

> Project could open a "feature requests" if they like. Some of these
> could work in a "reward" fashion. A reward could look like this:
> "whoever finishes a working driver for <insert card> gets <sum of funds
> offered by members>".

You didn't get it... I _do not_ have the money, but I _do_ need the fix,
why do I have to wait a whole year?

--
Robinson Maureira Castillo
Asesor DAI
INACAP

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by **Cort Douga** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:10:09

The problem of not having enough resources to achieve a given goal has
plagued mankind for years. Open-source, GPL or magic dust are not going
to solve that problem.

Quote:} You didn't get it... I _do not_ have the money, but I _do_ need the fix,
} why do I have to wait a whole year?

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by **Federico Ferrere** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:10:10

> Larry, what the hell are you smoking? It's a repost from tabloid, for
> fsck sake - clearly says so in the beginning. Thinking is, indeed, hard
> for these guys, but what's encouraging about that?

Would it have made any difference if I posted it here first? Or if I was
a respected developer? Shame on me, I happened to have studied
economics.

Anyway, the OSS model is just fine, so you shouldn't care. If at any
point you change your mind and want/need my $20 bucks, I will be ready
to support you (as well as the hundred millions x $20 waiting out there
arround the globe).

Federico

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by **Andrew Rodlan** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:20:04

On Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:48:21 -0400 (CLT)

> > You can chose to assign your money _whenever_ you want (you have 1
> > year flexibility).

> > Project could open a "feature requests" if they like. Some of these
> > could work in a "reward" fashion. A reward could look like this:
> > "whoever finishes a working driver for <insert card> gets <sum of
> > funds offered by members>".

> You didn't get it... I _do not_ have the money, but I _do_ need the
> fix, why do I have to wait a whole year?

Because you do not have the money.
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by **Robinson Maureira Castill** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:30:11

> The problem of not having enough resources to achieve a given goal has
> plagued mankind for years. Open-source, GPL or magic dust are not going
> to solve that problem.

I Agree.

But I don't think that the kernel should adopt this new license, what stop
some developers to fork another tree under the GPL?

IMHO, kernel should stay free...

Best regards
--
Robinson Maureira Castillo
Asesor DAI
INACAP

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by **Federico Ferrere** » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 05:30:12

> > > You can chose to assign your money _whenever_ you want (you have 1 year
> > > flexibility).

> > > Project could open a "feature requests" if they like. Some of these
> > > could work in a "reward" fashion. A reward could look like this:
> > > "whoever finishes a working driver for <insert card> gets <sum of funds
> > > offered by members>".

> > You didn't get it... I _do not_ have the money, but I _do_ need the fix,
> > why do I have to wait a whole year?

> > --
> > Robinson Maureira Castillo
> > Asesor DAI
> > INACAP

Idea 1: You do have $10 and you are trying to free-ride (honest answer).

Idea 2: You don't have $10 or $20 a year to "spare"? Then probably you are using
(old and) already supported hardware. And because past years developements
are free as in beer. If you ARE a developer, you get a free permament
membership so you shouldn't care about all this.

Idea 3: Make bugfixes and hardware support are always GPL and not fGPL. The fGPL
will force you to distribute under GPL (or fGPL, at your choise).

Idea 4: Write your own drivers if nobody else would.

Idea 5: You are a student and as such are granted a free membership
until you finish your studies.

Federico

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Very Computer

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?

Funding GPL projects or funding the GPL?