Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Clifford Jone » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 06:26:24



For several years I've written applications for the Palm OS platform.
During that time I've used an Emulator that was written by one person
and then others helped. I've grown used to using tools that worked
even when they were beta releases. The development tools quickly
became just about bullet proof (They do what you want them to do).
The Palm OS newsgroups are pouring out with thousands of developers
sharing there knowlege. Just do a search in any of them for just about
any keyword you can think of regarding programming and you will find
somthing was written.

Here I am making a decision to also support the Pocket PC platform
from Microsoft. I'm spending 4 times the money for hardware and software.
Yes, I said software as the Embeded tools Emulator require NT or higher.
I'm using Windows XP. Where as the Palm Emulator will run on Win98 or higher
with no special requirements.

Knowing that Microsoft is such a powerful company with many resources
(people
that are suppost to be experts) and more funding availible than any other
software
comapany, I have a couple of questions.

Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
tools?

Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking it
until they do?

Where is the best place to go for answers?
Or, does Microsoft simply force you to give them more money before they give
you
answers to their mistakes?

I know this sounds fustrating and I will find find these answers as some of
you have.
I the same as others will need the help of the development community to get
started.
Hopefully the development tools will get better. If not, I don't see myself
completely
jumping ship unless the development community can compensate for the lack of
thought out development tools.

Sincerly,

Cliff Jones - Narly Software

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:43:41


My comments are inline


Quote:> For several years I've written applications for the Palm OS platform.
> During that time I've used an Emulator that was written by one person
> and then others helped. I've grown used to using tools that worked
> even when they were beta releases. The development tools quickly
> became just about bullet proof (They do what you want them to do).
> The Palm OS newsgroups are pouring out with thousands of developers
> sharing there knowlege. Just do a search in any of them for just about
> any keyword you can think of regarding programming and you will find
> somthing was written.

> Here I am making a decision to also support the Pocket PC platform
> from Microsoft. I'm spending 4 times the money for hardware and software.
> Yes, I said software as the Embeded tools Emulator require NT or higher.
> I'm using Windows XP. Where as the Palm Emulator will run on Win98 or
higher
> with no special requirements.

Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times factor?  I
think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being absent on
Win98.

Quote:> Knowing that Microsoft is such a powerful company with many resources
> (people
> that are suppost to be experts) and more funding availible than any other
> software
> comapany, I have a couple of questions.

> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
> tools?

I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is 'crappy'
and why?

Quote:> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking
it
> until they do?

As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.  Besides what criteria
would one use and who would come up with these? To me they are better poised
than the Palm  folks because in the same form factor, and for about the same
cost, you get a much moer powerful handheld, running a feature rich Pocket
PC OS. It does not matter to me that the Pocket PC takes more RAM (or does
it?) for comparable applications, but it does matter than I can do a lot
more functional UI quicker by using familiar Windows' controls.  For
example, it is trivial for me to use the listview control, it does what I
want it to do, and has nice conveniences such as putting in ellipsis in text
that cannot be shown.  I don't know if this can be done on the Palm or if
one needs the help of commonly carved solutions by its developer community.

Bear in mind, this is the 3rd go around for MS, and they have spotted the
Palm OS a 90% market share.  However, MS appears to have done the right
thing by targetting a more than bare bones set of hardware, and a rich
multithreaded OS which is always liked by developers, specially in the final
analysis additional hardware costs can be offset by ease of programming,
getting a product to market quicker.  Palm is promising an update to the
hardware requirements but where is the OS?  One is promised but when is it
going to arrive?

Quote:> Where is the best place to go for answers?

I found pocketpcdn.com to be a useful site, this ng is just getting started
in my opinion.

Quote:> Or, does Microsoft simply force you to give them more money before they
give
> you
> answers to their mistakes?

I have not experienced this yet, but if it helps me fix a problem and sell a
product, it is not such a bad deal.  I have had no luck getting decent
support on the Palm from the Palm people.

Quote:> I know this sounds fustrating and I will find find these answers as some
of
> you have.
> I the same as others will need the help of the development community to
get
> started.
> Hopefully the development tools will get better. If not, I don't see
myself
> completely
> jumping ship unless the development community can compensate for the lack
of
> thought out development tools.

What specifically do you find lacking?  I think that the eMbedded Visual
tools (free, I might add) are a nice integrated set of tools along with SDKs
that match different profiles.  And the facility of targetting multiple
platforms within the PocketPC world is a nicety.

I develop for both the Palm OS (pre*ly) and now the Pocket PC.  I
have no brand name loyalties, and will develop for *any* platform if it
could make me a buck or two.  I like the Palm, I like the PocketPC, I prefer
the PocketPC tools, but generally have no complaints about either
development environments.

My prediction is that in less than  5 years, MS critics will be be pounding
on how 'predatory practices' enabled MS to crush the Palm.  That would be
quite inexplicable, since Palm has a 90% share in a market that MS does not
have a monopoly of the OS or of the platform.

Shripathi Kamath

- Show quoted text -

Quote:> Sincerly,

> Cliff Jones - Narly Software


 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Michael Boon » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:58:33


Sounds like a troll, but I'll bite....

Quote:> Here I am making a decision to also support the Pocket PC platform
> from Microsoft. I'm spending 4 times the money for hardware and software.
> Yes, I said software as the Embeded tools Emulator require NT or higher.
> I'm using Windows XP.

XP is NT or higher.  The embedded tools are free.  You can use your current
system.  So let's add up the total, 4 times $0 is.... $0. :-).

Quote:> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
> tools?

C++ and VB languages are not exactly what I'd call crappy software.  OK so
embedded VB can come pretty close to crappy sometimes but I'd say most
desktop programmers could adapt pretty quickly.  And C++ is quite powerful.

Quote:> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking
it
> until they do?

Huh?

Quote:> Where is the best place to go for answers?
> Or, does Microsoft simply force you to give them more money before they
give
> you
> answers to their mistakes?

The embedded tools are free.  I repeat, the embedded tools are free.  Just
download them.  No money required.

Quote:> I the same as others will need the help of the development community to
get
> started.
> Hopefully the development tools will get better.

If you haven't gotten started, how do you know that the development tools
are so lacking??

Best of luck!
Mike B.

--
Biohazard Software
http://www.biohazardsoftware.com

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Chris Wuestefel » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:41:43


In an article on Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:26:24 -0800,

Quote:> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
> tools?

> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking it
> until they do?

While developers on other platforms may enjoy tools that are frequently
more stable, I think that they've been conditioned to accept a
development environment that's horribly lacking in other ways, so that
they don't know what they're missing.

Consider:

- At the time VC++ 6.0 was released, it was (to my knowledge) the
closest compiler to implementing the ANSI C++ standard. Late additions
to the standard including some oddball template and exception rules
hadn't even been put into gcc yet. Add to this one of the best backend
optimizers in the business, and this was the best compiler of the time.
While this version is essentially 3 years old now, the standard hasn't
changed appreciably since.

- Development aids like Intellisense and autocomplete make the
developer's job *MUCH* easier. I know of no other environment that
provides these features to speed code development.

- Similarly, I've never seen a debugging environment as full-featured
and friendly as Visual Studio's. Debugging Windows apps developed in
VC++ or VB is easier and faster than any other development environment
or platform that I've ever seen (although debugging ASP is still like
pulling teeth :-( )

- Microsoft provides these features much more quickly than any other
publisher (open source or otherwise). This gives us (the developers) a
chance to learn sooner, and deliver advanced features to our customers
sooner. Consider, say, 3 years ago. MS's COM/MTS platform was out in
full swing, but the Java and CORBA people were still caught up in
academic discussions. The Beans-related stuff was to be arguably better
than the COM/MTS stuff available at the time, but it didn't matter,
because Beans only existed in someone's head -- yet we were actively
developing in COM/MTS, and had been for a year.

In contrast, development tools on the Palm are archaic. It seems like
the two leading development environments are a C++ compiler -- in which
only old-fashioned C is used, just like old Windows SDK programming --
and the Forth language, which is obsolete by almost any standard but for
certain obscure embedded systems. PPC allows use of a (limited) C++ and
Visual Basic environment -- as state of the art as is available for
handheld platforms.

We're talking about two very different philosophies of delivering
products to developers, and I don't think that you can objectively say
that one is better. But for my money, I'd rather let MS do the
development of the advanced tools that I need NOW.

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Chris Tacke, eMV » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:11:40


OK, I'll bite...comments inline.


Quote:> For several years I've written applications for the Palm OS platform.
> During that time I've used an Emulator that was written by one person
> and then others helped. I've grown used to using tools that worked
> even when they were beta releases. The development tools quickly
> became just about bullet proof (They do what you want them to do).

Have you ever use CodeWarrior?  At version 7 it still sucks worse that
version 3 of anything I've used from Microsoft or Borland.  In fact, it's my
#1 inhibition about doing any more Palm development (and I've done a bit).

Quote:> The Palm OS newsgroups are pouring out with thousands of developers
> sharing there knowlege. Just do a search in any of them for just about
> any keyword you can think of regarding programming and you will find
> somthing was written.

Well it's got a hell of a market share and has been around quite a while
longer than the Pocket PC.  What did you expect?

Quote:

> Here I am making a decision to also support the Pocket PC platform
> from Microsoft. I'm spending 4 times the money for hardware and software.
> Yes, I said software as the Embeded tools Emulator require NT or higher.
> I'm using Windows XP. Where as the Palm Emulator will run on Win98 or
higher
> with no special requirements.

The CE emulators require Unicode support, which 98 doesn't have.
Admittedly, the current CE emulators are *compared to POSE (though the
new one that comes with the SDE tech preview is *really* nice).

Quote:

> Knowing that Microsoft is such a powerful company with many resources
> (people
> that are suppost to be experts) and more funding availible than any other
> software
> comapany, I have a couple of questions.

> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
> tools?

What the hell are you talking about??  eVT is really nice, .NET Studio is
killer.

Quote:> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking
it
> until they do?

I think they have no clue about computers, software or business.  That's why
you never see Microsoft products anywhere.  These questions sure don't
facilitate getting good, helpful answers.

Quote:

> Where is the best place to go for answers?

Depends on your needs, but there are several web sites out there
(pocketpcdn.com, devbuzz.com, etc.), plus there's MSDN, the eVT Help and
samples, these newsgroups and a few developer listservs.

Quote:> Or, does Microsoft simply force you to give them more money before they
give
> you
> answers to their mistakes?

What part of Free in the eVT price don't you like?

Quote:

> I know this sounds fustrating and I will find find these answers as some
of
> you have.
> I the same as others will need the help of the development community to
get
> started.
> Hopefully the development tools will get better. If not, I don't see
myself
> completely

Have you even seen eVT, or .NET Studio yet?

Quote:> jumping ship unless the development community can compensate for the lack
of
> thought out development tools.

Honestly, I have no loyalty to a specific product or harware platform.  We
produce solutions to solve customers needs.  I've used CE, Palm and RIM.
You can't really compare them, as they aren't in the same league.  A Palm is
cheap and great for PIM stuff.  If that's what the solution requires, I
wouldn't recommend a Pocket PC to the customer.  But if it requires a fair
amount of processing, the Dragonball just won't cut it, and CE is the way to
go.  And there are other situations when neither compare to the flexibility
of a RIM device.

I don't think anyone here cares about you jumping ship and becoming a 100%
CE developer.  I know I don't.  And I think doing so would actually be a
disservice to you customers because it limits their potential solutions.
Staying 100% Palm has the same stifling effect.  But trying to pin your
indeciveness on some (faulty in my view) perception of a development product
is irritating.  Rather that * about the situation, do something.  Write
some articles or tutorials.  Write a book.  Write a new and better deve tool
if you feel what exists is so terrible.  Just quit whining.

Christopher Tacke, eMVP
President, Innovative Decision Support Systems, Inc.
www.innovativedss.com

Quote:> Sincerly,

> Cliff Jones - Narly Software

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Clifford Jone » Sun, 06 Jan 2002 17:42:51


Hear are my responses to your comments.

Quote:>Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times factor?  I
>think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being absent on
>Win98.

I'm waiting for $1300 worth of IPaq product from Compaq as my 3870 is
on backorder. I didn't want to stand still but to begin developing the
solutions
I need on the PocketPC platform. So, I'd say It costs a lot more than a
PalmIIIC at $199 and a copy of Metrowerks Codewarrier about $350.
Yea I know it will do more but with much much more effort and dollars.
Boy is the C++ Class Browser in Codewarrier great!

Quote:>> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
>> tools?

>I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is 'crappy'
>and why?

There are more bugs/oversites or undersites in the Microsoft CE and tools
than
carter has liver pills. In addition to that they are very very difficult to
put togeather
actual applications and debug them.

Examples are as follows:
1) goto http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx and search
under
Windows CE and type in the word bug. You'll find 100 articles. Imagine
creating
an application only to find you have to back up and take a different
approach for
each of these. (Time wasted big time)

2) Look up the article "How to Write and Use ActiveX controls for Microsoft
Windows CE 3.0" When it comes time to create one you find your suppost to
manualy make 2nd copies of your source and fake out the OS into thinking you
only have one UUID when in fact you need two of these so called unique ids
in order to have a design time control. Once again this cluge is caused
because
of the missdirected emulator Microsoft put out that I'm going to be forced
to use
if I want to write apps for the IPaq. Oh, by the way eithernet is
recommended for
the connection to a real machine. That's more money and hardware also to
cover
for a poor design. The Emulator can't even save multiple sessions.

3) Imagine the sales pitch, Pocket versions of Excel and Word. What a bunch
of crap.
They are totaly different applcations with totaly different file formats. As
I've investigated
the file formats it has become clear that the so called Experts at Microsoft
seem to be
doing everything in thier power to complicate the usage of these products
instead of
evolving to somthing simpler to use. For Gods sake just about every file
type has
been recreated with a different format. So much for ease of use when copying
files
from our PocketPC to CF cards and to the PC. Look what it takes to do a
complete
backup of a PocketPC. Ick... The articals just say reinstall the software
applications.
How much free time do you have?

Quote:>> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking
it
>> until they do?

>As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.

Guys, it should matter to us. As long as the develpers have the attitude
that
it doesn't matter, we will continue to get the examples I listed above. If
Microsoft doesn't
listen to someone that knows how sloppy they are, they certiantly won't
listen to
a dumb user that has no idea of the work under the hood. This is a big part
of why
I'm so vocal here. As a group we should put pressure on for better
solutions.

This last section is really to Chris Tacke. Chris, thanks for your hard work
I took a little
time to post here phrases directly from your web site. This proves some of
what I've
been saying. Microsoft's sloppy work is why you've been working on fixes for
them.
If their products were more thought out to help instead of obstruficate or
how ever you
spell it, then I'd bet you'd be writting higher level applications. You'd be
looking less under
the hood and more out the windshield. Wow, you'd be kicking but...

-------------------------------------
eMbedded VB developers have been frustrated with their limited ability to
easily call APIs since eVB first appeared.

Generating databases in code with Visual Basic or eMbedded Visual Basic is
tedious at best. If you need to script several tables, it can take a
significant amount of time to write all of the table generation code and
debug it.

A lot of eVB developers have asked questions about the
not-so-well-documented Winsock control.

Simply Select the data source, select the database (for SQL Server), select
the tables to script, choose the Object Code (ADO, ADOCE 3.0, ADOCE 3.1 or
None), then cut and paste the resulting script into your project.

Transferring data from a Windows CE device to its ActiveSync host has never
been a simple task for developers, especially Visual Basic developers.
Initiating the transfer from the host adds another level of difficulty.

Shutting down an external application by simply sending WM_CLOSE to a window
is unstable and dangerous.

ADOCE had an serious error. If the device is soft-reset while a connection
or recordset is open to a database, all data inserts, deletes and
modifications done with that connection or recordset are ireevocably lost!

If you have an idea or a need for a solution that will help you, chances are
there are other people that could use the same or similar solution. We
leverage this fact and create a solution that will fit the needs of the
entire market and then offer it as an off-the-shelf product

-------------------------------------------------------------------

All of this said I'm going to fight my way thru this convoluted process to
create

applications for PocketPC. Just pray to God Microsoft doesn't make it to
Mars

until they get better at creating tools that work togeather better and are
bug free .

Could you imagine running into another Bug when your oxygen is leaking out
into space

and you thought it was Microsoft quality software.....

.

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Clifford Jone » Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:45:09


Shripathi

Well it seems you're now trying to anlize what you say is a "feeling of
inadequacy".

This is what happens when someone says something could be better.
a small percentage of the population will fight to keep it the same.
They will even regress to personal issues.

How's this sound, you're so happy with the tools you have, keep them
and I'll use the ones 2 years from now that have been refined because
of the complaints like mine that have been taken seriously.

Engineered solutions don't get better on there own. Feedback is required.
Most of the time negative feeback creates the greatest improvement.

Just a last point, I write software that controls Manufacturing Machines.
These
Are things that move when the computer tells it to. Some of the machinery
has a
great deal of power. These machines could squash a person like a bug.
If there is a bug in the software, people could be killed if the power
didn't shut
off or the rollers came down when they were not suppose to. So, in many
cases
it is more serious than just telling people to simply "reinstall the
software" when
their game application doesn't work right or you couldn't look up the score
of a football game over your wireless connection.

This is why this matters to me. What responsibilities do you have for your
software?

"Shripathi Kamath" <skam...@Home.com> wrote in message

news:9cIZ7.19611$B61.7632563@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

> "Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:uZtznUclBHA.2432@tkmsftngp02...
> > Hear are my responses to your comments.

> > >Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times factor?  I
> > >think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being absent
> on
> > >Win98.

> > I'm waiting for $1300 worth of IPaq product from Compaq as my 3870 is
> > on backorder. I didn't want to stand still but to begin developing the
> > solutions
> > I need on the PocketPC platform. So, I'd say It costs a lot more than a
> > PalmIIIC at $199 and a copy of Metrowerks Codewarrier about $350.

> Apples to apples please!  And even at your comparison with specious
pricing
> (comparing a top of the line 3870, which incidentally is $599, not $1300
to
> a Palm IIIC), it ain't 4x!

> And if you went back to your original post didn't you brag that all Palm
> tools were free?  Why are you paying for CodeWarrior?

> > Yea I know it will do more but with much much more effort and dollars.
> > Boy is the C++ Class Browser in Codewarrier great!

> That is a subjective evaluation, which can only be taken seriously if
backed
> up by factual data.

> > >> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy
software
> > >> tools?

> > >I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is
'crappy'
> > >and why?

> > There are more bugs/oversites or undersites in the Microsoft CE and
tools
> > than
> > carter has liver pills. In addition to that they are very very difficult
> to
> > put togeather
> > actual applications and debug them.

> Again, more generalities, and a strong feeling of inadequacy...

> > Examples are as follows:
> > 1) goto http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx and
search
> > under
> > Windows CE and type in the word bug. You'll find 100 articles. Imagine
> > creating
> > an application only to find you have to back up and take a different
> > approach for
> > each of these. (Time wasted big time)

> Er, this was about tools, you need to compare eVC/eVB to something else,
not
> CE itself.

> > 2) Look up the article "How to Write and Use ActiveX controls for
> Microsoft
> > Windows CE 3.0" When it comes time to create one you find your suppost
to
> > manualy make 2nd copies of your source and fake out the OS into thinking
> you
> > only have one UUID when in fact you need two of these so called unique
ids
> > in order to have a design time control. Once again this cluge is caused
> > because
> > of the missdirected emulator Microsoft put out that I'm going to be
forced
> > to use
> > if I want to write apps for the IPaq. Oh, by the way eithernet is
> > recommended for
> > the connection to a real machine. That's more money and hardware also to
> > cover
> > for a poor design. The Emulator can't even save multiple sessions.

> There was consensus that the emulator wasn't up to snuff, so what?

> > 3) Imagine the sales pitch, Pocket versions of Excel and Word. What a
> bunch
> > of crap.

> And how exactly is this sales pitch making it difficult for you to develop
> software?

> > They are totaly different applcations with totaly different file
formats.
> As
> > I've investigated
> > the file formats it has become clear that the so called Experts at
> Microsoft
> > seem to be
> > doing everything in thier power to complicate the usage of these
products
> > instead of
> > evolving to somthing simpler to use. For Gods sake just about every file
> > type has
> > been recreated with a different format. So much for ease of use when
> copying
> > files
> > from our PocketPC to CF cards and to the PC. Look what it takes to do a
> > complete
> > backup of a PocketPC. Ick... The articals just say reinstall the
software
> > applications.

> Don't use them since you don't use them on your PalmOS anyway!  It will
NOT
> affect your development for the PocketPC.  They are applications, not
> development tools.

> > How much free time do you have?

> > >> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
> faking
> > it
> > >> until they do?

> > >As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.

> > Guys, it should matter to us. As long as the develpers have the attitude
> > that
> > it doesn't matter, we will continue to get the examples I listed above.
If
> > Microsoft doesn't
> > listen to someone that knows how sloppy they are, they certiantly won't
> > listen to
> > a dumb user that has no idea of the work under the hood. This is a big
> part
> > of why
> > I'm so vocal here. As a group we should put pressure on for better
> > solutions.

> One would have a little more credibility putting pressure when they stay
> away from
> " Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking
> it until they do?"

> If there is a successful software company, it is MS, and didn't become one
> by NOT knowing waht it is doing.  You can criticize them all you want, but
> until someone does better....

> And like I mentioned, Palm has a 90% share today, care to wager how small
> this will be in five years?  And criticism can you have then?  That MS
used
> its desktop monopoly to kill the handheld market?  HOW?

> Next time, you better bring some kryptonite :-)  But since you obviously
> wanted to debate MS Vs. ???, I'll let you have the last word so that you
may
> wallow in your anti-MS stance and remain blissfully ignorant!  Last I
> checked no body was holding a gun to your head, so think why you are
> developing for the PocketPC

> > This last section is really to Chris Tacke. Chris, thanks for your hard
> work
> > I took a little
> > time to post here phrases directly from your web site. This proves some
of
> > what I've
> > been saying. Microsoft's sloppy work is why you've been working on fixes
> for
> > them.
> > If their products were more thought out to help instead of obstruficate
or
> > how ever you
> > spell it, then I'd bet you'd be writting higher level applications.
You'd
> be
> > looking less under
> > the hood and more out the windshield. Wow, you'd be kicking but...

> > -------------------------------------
> > eMbedded VB developers have been frustrated with their limited ability
to
> > easily call APIs since eVB first appeared.

> > Generating databases in code with Visual Basic or eMbedded Visual Basic
is
> > tedious at best. If you need to script several tables, it can take a
> > significant amount of time to write all of the table generation code and
> > debug it.

> > A lot of eVB developers have asked questions about the
> > not-so-well-documented Winsock control.

> > Simply Select the data source, select the database (for SQL Server),
> select
> > the tables to script, choose the Object Code (ADO, ADOCE 3.0, ADOCE 3.1
or
> > None), then cut and paste the resulting script into your project.

> > Transferring data from a Windows CE device to its ActiveSync host has
> never
> > been a simple task for developers, especially Visual Basic developers.
> > Initiating the transfer from the host adds another level of difficulty.

> > Shutting down an external application by simply sending WM_CLOSE to a
> window
> > is unstable and dangerous.

> > ADOCE had an serious error. If the device is soft-reset while a
connection
> > or recordset is open to a database, all data inserts, deletes and
> > modifications done with that connection or recordset are ireevocably
lost!

> > If you have an idea or a need for a solution that will help you, chances
> are
> > there are other people that could use the same or similar solution. We
> > leverage this fact and create a solution that will fit the needs of the
> > entire market and then offer it as an off-the-shelf product

> > -------------------------------------------------------------------

> > All of this said I'm going to fight my way thru this convoluted process
to
> > create

> > applications for PocketPC. Just pray to God Microsoft doesn't make it to
> > Mars

> > until they get better at creating tools that work togeather better and
are
> > bug free .

> > Could you imagine running into another Bug when your oxygen is leaking
out
> > into space

> > and you thought it was Microsoft quality software.....

> > .

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Clifford Jone » Mon, 07 Jan 2002 05:10:00



Subject: Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers
Date: Saturday, January 05, 2002 9:56 AM

Hear are my responses to some of your comments. If these comments
Are acted on the PocketPC platform will be better than it is

Quote:>Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times factor?  I
>think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being absent on
>Win98.

I'm waiting for $1300 worth of IPaq product from Compaq a 3870, SD card,
Sleeves and charging/serial cables the 3870 is on backorder. I didn't want
to
stand still but begin developing the solutions I need on the PocketPC
platform.
So, I'd say It costs a lot more than a PalmIIIC at $199 and not $649 and a
copy of Metrowerks Codewarrier about $350. Yea I know it will do more but
with much much more effort and dollars. Boy is the C++ Class Browser in
Codewarrier great! To bad Microsoft couldn't do that.

Quote:>> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy software
>> tools?

>I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is 'crappy'
>and why?

Yes, that was the answer I got.

There are more bugs/oversights or undersides in the Microsoft CE and the
Embedded tools than carter has liver pills. In addition to that, it is very
very
difficult to put together actual applications and debug them. Try creating
an ActiveX control or a ATL control and then using it in eVB.

Just a few examples are as follows:
1) go to http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx and search
under Windows CE and type in the word bug. You'll find 100 articles. Imagine
creating an application only to find you have to back up and take a
different approach for each of these. (Time wasted big time) No wonder
why they stopped selling the CE tools. It's free but is your time?

2) Look up the article "How to Write and Use ActiveX controls for Microsoft
Windows CE 3.0" When it comes time to create one you find your suppose to
manually make 2nd copies of your source and fake out the OS into thinking
you
only have one UUID when in fact you need two of these so called unique ids
in order to have a design time control. Once again this kluge is caused
because of the misdirected emulator Microsoft put out that I'm going to be
forced to use if I want to write apps for the IPaq. Oh, by the way Ethernet
is
recommended for the connection to a real machine because it's so slow
meaning
you have to wait for it (More WinDoz Time). That's more money and hardware
also to
cover for a poor design. The Emulator can't even save multiple sessions
preloaded
with different apps loaded. I'm not sure yet if it can load ROMS but I don't
think so.

3) You've heard the sales pitch, Pocket versions of Excel and Word. What a
bunch
of crap!
They are totally different applications with totally different file formats
than the PC
versions. Microsoft would lead on the user into thinking they are the same
thing.
Listen and read the adds. As I've investigated the file formats it has
become clear
that the so called Experts at Microsoft seem to be doing everything in their
power to complicate the usage of these products instead of evolving to
something
simpler to use.
For Gods sake, just about every file type has been recreated with a
different
format. So much for ease of use when copying files from our PocketPC to CF
cards
and to the PC and then using them. Admit it, when you or someone you know
first
got a PocketPC you thought you could copy the same Excel and Word files and
use
them.

4) Look what it takes to do a complete backup of a PocketPC. Yuck... The
articles
just say reinstall the software applications.
The Palm platform is restored with one button push. That's right "One Button
Push".
That's how it should be with our PocketPCs. Just because you say you don't
put up
with crappy tools doesn't mean we should settle for less.
Just how much free time do you have??

Quote:>> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just faking
>> it until they do?

>As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.

Guys/Gals, it should matter to us. As long as the developers have the
attitude
that it doesn't matter, we will continue to get the examples I listed above.
If
Microsoft doesn't listen to someone that knows how sloppy they really are,
they certainly won't listen to a dumb user that has no idea of the workings
under the hood or the tools to create them. This is a big part of why I'm so
vocal here. As a group we should put pressure on them for better solutions.
Don't think for a moment that it is not possible because it is.

This last section is really to Chris Tacke. Chris, thanks for your hard work
I took a little time to post here phrases directly from your web site.
This proves some of what I've been saying. Microsoft's sloppy work is why
you've been working on fixes for them.
If their products were more thought out to help instead of obstruficate or
how ever you spell it, then I'd bet you'd be writing higher level
applications. You'd be looking less under the hood and more out the
windshield. Wow Chris, you'd be kicking Butt...

-------------------------------------
These are problems Chris has identified on his website. He himself
has created some solutions for the problems. I bet if Microsoft had better
tools
Chris would have spent less time handling these problems.

eMbedded VB developers have been frustrated with their limited ability to
easily call APIs since eVB first appeared.

Generating databases in code with Visual Basic or eMbedded Visual Basic is
tedious at best. If you need to script several tables, it can take a
significant amount of time to write all of the table generation code and
debug it.

A lot of eVB developers have asked questions about the
not-so-well-documented Winsock control.

Simply Select the data source, select the database (for SQL Server), select
the tables to script, choose the Object Code (ADO, ADOCE 3.0, ADOCE 3.1 or
None), then cut and paste the resulting script into your project.

Transferring data from a Windows CE device to its ActiveSync host has never
been a simple task for developers, especially Visual Basic developers.
Initiating the transfer from the host adds another level of difficulty.

Shutting down an external application by simply sending WM_CLOSE to a window
is unstable and dangerous.

ADOCE had an serious error. If the device is soft-reset while a connection
or recordset is open to a database, all data inserts, deletes and
modifications done with that connection or recordset are ireevocably lost!

If you have an idea or a need for a solution that will help you, chances are
there are other people that could use the same or similar solution. We
leverage this fact and create a solution that will fit the needs of the
entire market and then offer it as an off-the-shelf product

-------------------------------------------------------------------

All of this said I'm going to fight my way thru this convoluted process to
create applications for PocketPC. Just pray to God Microsoft doesn't make
it to Mars until they get better at creating tools that work together
better and are bug free .

Could you imagine being on Mars and running into another Bug when your
oxygen is leaking out into space and Microsoft duped you into thinking it
was
quality software tools you were using..... Bad, Real Bad. I guess they
wouldn't
get that next sale.

Just a last point, I write software that controls Manufacturing Machines.
These
Are things that move when the computer tells it to. Some of the machinery
has a
great deal of power. These machines could squash a person like a bug.
If there is a bug in the software, people could be killed if the power
didn't shut
off or the rollers came down when they were not suppose to. So, in many
cases
it is more serious than just telling people to simply "reinstall the
software" when
their game application doesn't work right or you couldn't look up the score
of a football game over your wireless connection.

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Shripathi Kamat » Mon, 07 Jan 2002 05:26:06



<snip>

Quote:> Just a last point, I write software that controls Manufacturing Machines.
> These
> Are things that move when the computer tells it to. Some of the machinery
> has a
> great deal of power. These machines could squash a person like a bug.
> If there is a bug in the software, people could be killed if the power
> didn't shut
> off or the rollers came down when they were not suppose to. So, in many
> cases
> it is more serious than just telling people to simply "reinstall the
> software" when
> their game application doesn't work right or you couldn't look up the
score
> of a football game over your wireless connection.

Well you may pat yourself on the back, and blissfully live imagining, nay
believing, that you are the first, last and only person who can or does
develop such software.  That too on a Palm nonetheless!

- Show quoted text -

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Chris Tacke, eMV » Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:25:00


I've written software that controlled the QA and manufacture of blood
oxygenators used in open-heart surgery, and I did it with a Microsoft
product.  Does that say how much I trust them?

I'll be the first to admit eVB has MANY shortcomings, but I also feel well
qualified to be able to say a Desktop VB developer can write a mobile
application for a Pocket PC in eVB that is shippable in FAR less time than
it would take for them to learn C/C++ plus all of Codewarrior and Palm's
issues (and don't try to say it hasn't got any, I've programmed for the
them).

If you want a better comparison, look and eVC, though I still maintain
you're comparing two significantly dissimilar items, so the comparison is
invalid.

As for emulation, I think anyone who has done CE development will agree the
current emulator sucks ass.  Did Palm make their emulator?  No.  Did
Metrowerks? No.  How long has POSE been around for the bugs to get worked
out?  The CE emulator is how old?  I've seen the next generation emulator.
It's a real emulator and will do a lot of cool stuff.  Some that POSE won't
do, but it still lacks some features that POSE has (and I've made the
suggestions personally to Microsoft).

You seem hell-bent on trashing Microsoft in hopes that they will listen and
change their ways, presumably to provide exactly what you want.  I don't see
any point in trying to dissuade you.

In my view, CE and Palm OS are two completely different reals for completely
different uses and applications.  Palm OS is great for a PDA, and if I
wanted a PDA strictly for PDA stuff, I'd use a Palm.  If you want to control
some sort of embedded device or have a handheld that does a good amount of
processing or requires large data files, I'd go with CE.  Again, I try to
provide our customers with a product that will do what they need.  I don't
give a damn who it comes from.

-Chris

P.S.  I'm glad to see you read so much of our site.  Sure, it gave you great
posting material, but maybe it gave you some information that will allow you
to produce a better product or produce what you're after in less time.

"Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message

news:epTHwGilBHA.1608@tkmsftngp04...
> Shripathi

> Well it seems you're now trying to anlize what you say is a "feeling of
> inadequacy".

> This is what happens when someone says something could be better.
> a small percentage of the population will fight to keep it the same.
> They will even regress to personal issues.

> How's this sound, you're so happy with the tools you have, keep them
> and I'll use the ones 2 years from now that have been refined because
> of the complaints like mine that have been taken seriously.

> Engineered solutions don't get better on there own. Feedback is required.
> Most of the time negative feeback creates the greatest improvement.

> Just a last point, I write software that controls Manufacturing Machines.
> These
> Are things that move when the computer tells it to. Some of the machinery
> has a
> great deal of power. These machines could squash a person like a bug.
> If there is a bug in the software, people could be killed if the power
> didn't shut
> off or the rollers came down when they were not suppose to. So, in many
> cases
> it is more serious than just telling people to simply "reinstall the
> software" when
> their game application doesn't work right or you couldn't look up the
score
> of a football game over your wireless connection.

> This is why this matters to me. What responsibilities do you have for your
> software?

> "Shripathi Kamath" <skam...@Home.com> wrote in message
> news:9cIZ7.19611$B61.7632563@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

> > "Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message
> > news:uZtznUclBHA.2432@tkmsftngp02...
> > > Hear are my responses to your comments.

> > > >Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times factor?
I
> > > >think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being
absent
> > on
> > > >Win98.

> > > I'm waiting for $1300 worth of IPaq product from Compaq as my 3870 is
> > > on backorder. I didn't want to stand still but to begin developing the
> > > solutions
> > > I need on the PocketPC platform. So, I'd say It costs a lot more than
a
> > > PalmIIIC at $199 and a copy of Metrowerks Codewarrier about $350.

> > Apples to apples please!  And even at your comparison with specious
> pricing
> > (comparing a top of the line 3870, which incidentally is $599, not $1300
> to
> > a Palm IIIC), it ain't 4x!

> > And if you went back to your original post didn't you brag that all Palm
> > tools were free?  Why are you paying for CodeWarrior?

> > > Yea I know it will do more but with much much more effort and dollars.
> > > Boy is the C++ Class Browser in Codewarrier great!

> > That is a subjective evaluation, which can only be taken seriously if
> backed
> > up by factual data.

> > > >> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy
> software
> > > >> tools?

> > > >I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is
> 'crappy'
> > > >and why?

> > > There are more bugs/oversites or undersites in the Microsoft CE and
> tools
> > > than
> > > carter has liver pills. In addition to that they are very very
difficult
> > to
> > > put togeather
> > > actual applications and debug them.

> > Again, more generalities, and a strong feeling of inadequacy...

> > > Examples are as follows:
> > > 1) goto http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx and
> search
> > > under
> > > Windows CE and type in the word bug. You'll find 100 articles. Imagine
> > > creating
> > > an application only to find you have to back up and take a different
> > > approach for
> > > each of these. (Time wasted big time)

> > Er, this was about tools, you need to compare eVC/eVB to something else,
> not
> > CE itself.

> > > 2) Look up the article "How to Write and Use ActiveX controls for
> > Microsoft
> > > Windows CE 3.0" When it comes time to create one you find your suppost
> to
> > > manualy make 2nd copies of your source and fake out the OS into
thinking
> > you
> > > only have one UUID when in fact you need two of these so called unique
> ids
> > > in order to have a design time control. Once again this cluge is
caused
> > > because
> > > of the missdirected emulator Microsoft put out that I'm going to be
> forced
> > > to use
> > > if I want to write apps for the IPaq. Oh, by the way eithernet is
> > > recommended for
> > > the connection to a real machine. That's more money and hardware also
to
> > > cover
> > > for a poor design. The Emulator can't even save multiple sessions.

> > There was consensus that the emulator wasn't up to snuff, so what?

> > > 3) Imagine the sales pitch, Pocket versions of Excel and Word. What a
> > bunch
> > > of crap.

> > And how exactly is this sales pitch making it difficult for you to
develop
> > software?

> > > They are totaly different applcations with totaly different file
> formats.
> > As
> > > I've investigated
> > > the file formats it has become clear that the so called Experts at
> > Microsoft
> > > seem to be
> > > doing everything in thier power to complicate the usage of these
> products
> > > instead of
> > > evolving to somthing simpler to use. For Gods sake just about every
file
> > > type has
> > > been recreated with a different format. So much for ease of use when
> > copying
> > > files
> > > from our PocketPC to CF cards and to the PC. Look what it takes to do
a
> > > complete
> > > backup of a PocketPC. Ick... The articals just say reinstall the
> software
> > > applications.

> > Don't use them since you don't use them on your PalmOS anyway!  It will
> NOT
> > affect your development for the PocketPC.  They are applications, not
> > development tools.

> > > How much free time do you have?

> > > >> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
> > faking
> > > it
> > > >> until they do?

> > > >As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.

> > > Guys, it should matter to us. As long as the develpers have the
attitude
> > > that
> > > it doesn't matter, we will continue to get the examples I listed
above.
> If
> > > Microsoft doesn't
> > > listen to someone that knows how sloppy they are, they certiantly
won't
> > > listen to
> > > a dumb user that has no idea of the work under the hood. This is a big
> > part
> > > of why
> > > I'm so vocal here. As a group we should put pressure on for better
> > > solutions.

> > One would have a little more credibility putting pressure when they stay
> > away from
> > " Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
faking
> > it until they do?"

> > If there is a successful software company, it is MS, and didn't become
one
> > by NOT knowing waht it is doing.  You can criticize them all you want,
but
> > until someone does better....

> > And like I mentioned, Palm has a 90% share today, care to wager how
small
> > this will be in five years?  And criticism can you have then?  That MS
> used
> > its desktop monopoly to kill the handheld market?  HOW?

> > Next time, you better bring some kryptonite :-)  But since you obviously
> > wanted to debate MS Vs. ???, I'll let you have the last word so that you
> may
> > wallow in your anti-MS stance and remain blissfully ignorant!  Last I
> > checked no body was holding a gun to your head, so think why you are
> > developing for the PocketPC

> > > This last section is really to Chris Tacke. Chris, thanks for your
hard
> > work
> > > I took a little
> > > time to post here phrases directly from your web site. This proves
some
> of
> > > what I've
> > > been saying. Microsoft's sloppy work is why you've been working on
fixes
> > for
> > > them.
> > > If their products were more thought out to help instead of

...

read more »

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Clifford Jone » Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:11:17


Chris, what you've said is very reasonable.

I did learn quite a bit on your site.
One of the things I learned is you are an asset for Microsoft.

Thanks for your efforts.

"Chris Tacke, eMVP" <cta...@innovativedss.com> wrote in message
news:OeCBMsnlBHA.1968@tkmsftngp07...

> I've written software that controlled the QA and manufacture of blood
> oxygenators used in open-heart surgery, and I did it with a Microsoft
> product.  Does that say how much I trust them?

> I'll be the first to admit eVB has MANY shortcomings, but I also feel well
> qualified to be able to say a Desktop VB developer can write a mobile
> application for a Pocket PC in eVB that is shippable in FAR less time than
> it would take for them to learn C/C++ plus all of Codewarrior and Palm's
> issues (and don't try to say it hasn't got any, I've programmed for the
> them).

> If you want a better comparison, look and eVC, though I still maintain
> you're comparing two significantly dissimilar items, so the comparison is
> invalid.

> As for emulation, I think anyone who has done CE development will agree
the
> current emulator sucks ass.  Did Palm make their emulator?  No.  Did
> Metrowerks? No.  How long has POSE been around for the bugs to get worked
> out?  The CE emulator is how old?  I've seen the next generation emulator.
> It's a real emulator and will do a lot of cool stuff.  Some that POSE
won't
> do, but it still lacks some features that POSE has (and I've made the
> suggestions personally to Microsoft).

> You seem hell-bent on trashing Microsoft in hopes that they will listen
and
> change their ways, presumably to provide exactly what you want.  I don't
see
> any point in trying to dissuade you.

> In my view, CE and Palm OS are two completely different reals for
completely
> different uses and applications.  Palm OS is great for a PDA, and if I
> wanted a PDA strictly for PDA stuff, I'd use a Palm.  If you want to
control
> some sort of embedded device or have a handheld that does a good amount of
> processing or requires large data files, I'd go with CE.  Again, I try to
> provide our customers with a product that will do what they need.  I don't
> give a damn who it comes from.

> -Chris

> P.S.  I'm glad to see you read so much of our site.  Sure, it gave you
great
> posting material, but maybe it gave you some information that will allow
you
> to produce a better product or produce what you're after in less time.

> "Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:epTHwGilBHA.1608@tkmsftngp04...
> > Shripathi

> > Well it seems you're now trying to anlize what you say is a "feeling of
> > inadequacy".

> > This is what happens when someone says something could be better.
> > a small percentage of the population will fight to keep it the same.
> > They will even regress to personal issues.

> > How's this sound, you're so happy with the tools you have, keep them
> > and I'll use the ones 2 years from now that have been refined because
> > of the complaints like mine that have been taken seriously.

> > Engineered solutions don't get better on there own. Feedback is
required.
> > Most of the time negative feeback creates the greatest improvement.

> > Just a last point, I write software that controls Manufacturing
Machines.
> > These
> > Are things that move when the computer tells it to. Some of the
machinery
> > has a
> > great deal of power. These machines could squash a person like a bug.
> > If there is a bug in the software, people could be killed if the power
> > didn't shut
> > off or the rollers came down when they were not suppose to. So, in many
> > cases
> > it is more serious than just telling people to simply "reinstall the
> > software" when
> > their game application doesn't work right or you couldn't look up the
> score
> > of a football game over your wireless connection.

> > This is why this matters to me. What responsibilities do you have for
your
> > software?

> > "Shripathi Kamath" <skam...@Home.com> wrote in message
> > news:9cIZ7.19611$B61.7632563@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

> > > "Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message
> > > news:uZtznUclBHA.2432@tkmsftngp02...
> > > > Hear are my responses to your comments.

> > > > >Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times
factor?
> I
> > > > >think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being
> absent
> > > on
> > > > >Win98.

> > > > I'm waiting for $1300 worth of IPaq product from Compaq as my 3870
is
> > > > on backorder. I didn't want to stand still but to begin developing
the
> > > > solutions
> > > > I need on the PocketPC platform. So, I'd say It costs a lot more
than
> a
> > > > PalmIIIC at $199 and a copy of Metrowerks Codewarrier about $350.

> > > Apples to apples please!  And even at your comparison with specious
> > pricing
> > > (comparing a top of the line 3870, which incidentally is $599, not
$1300
> > to
> > > a Palm IIIC), it ain't 4x!

> > > And if you went back to your original post didn't you brag that all
Palm
> > > tools were free?  Why are you paying for CodeWarrior?

> > > > Yea I know it will do more but with much much more effort and
dollars.
> > > > Boy is the C++ Class Browser in Codewarrier great!

> > > That is a subjective evaluation, which can only be taken seriously if
> > backed
> > > up by factual data.

> > > > >> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy
> > software
> > > > >> tools?

> > > > >I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is
> > 'crappy'
> > > > >and why?

> > > > There are more bugs/oversites or undersites in the Microsoft CE and
> > tools
> > > > than
> > > > carter has liver pills. In addition to that they are very very
> difficult
> > > to
> > > > put togeather
> > > > actual applications and debug them.

> > > Again, more generalities, and a strong feeling of inadequacy...

> > > > Examples are as follows:
> > > > 1) goto http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx and
> > search
> > > > under
> > > > Windows CE and type in the word bug. You'll find 100 articles.
Imagine
> > > > creating
> > > > an application only to find you have to back up and take a different
> > > > approach for
> > > > each of these. (Time wasted big time)

> > > Er, this was about tools, you need to compare eVC/eVB to something
else,
> > not
> > > CE itself.

> > > > 2) Look up the article "How to Write and Use ActiveX controls for
> > > Microsoft
> > > > Windows CE 3.0" When it comes time to create one you find your
suppost
> > to
> > > > manualy make 2nd copies of your source and fake out the OS into
> thinking
> > > you
> > > > only have one UUID when in fact you need two of these so called
unique
> > ids
> > > > in order to have a design time control. Once again this cluge is
> caused
> > > > because
> > > > of the missdirected emulator Microsoft put out that I'm going to be
> > forced
> > > > to use
> > > > if I want to write apps for the IPaq. Oh, by the way eithernet is
> > > > recommended for
> > > > the connection to a real machine. That's more money and hardware
also
> to
> > > > cover
> > > > for a poor design. The Emulator can't even save multiple sessions.

> > > There was consensus that the emulator wasn't up to snuff, so what?

> > > > 3) Imagine the sales pitch, Pocket versions of Excel and Word. What
a
> > > bunch
> > > > of crap.

> > > And how exactly is this sales pitch making it difficult for you to
> develop
> > > software?

> > > > They are totaly different applcations with totaly different file
> > formats.
> > > As
> > > > I've investigated
> > > > the file formats it has become clear that the so called Experts at
> > > Microsoft
> > > > seem to be
> > > > doing everything in thier power to complicate the usage of these
> > products
> > > > instead of
> > > > evolving to somthing simpler to use. For Gods sake just about every
> file
> > > > type has
> > > > been recreated with a different format. So much for ease of use when
> > > copying
> > > > files
> > > > from our PocketPC to CF cards and to the PC. Look what it takes to
do
> a
> > > > complete
> > > > backup of a PocketPC. Ick... The articals just say reinstall the
> > software
> > > > applications.

> > > Don't use them since you don't use them on your PalmOS anyway!  It
will
> > NOT
> > > affect your development for the PocketPC.  They are applications, not
> > > development tools.

> > > > How much free time do you have?

> > > > >> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
> > > faking
> > > > it
> > > > >> until they do?

> > > > >As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.

> > > > Guys, it should matter to us. As long as the develpers have the
> attitude
> > > > that
> > > > it doesn't matter, we will continue to get the examples I listed
> above.
> > If
> > > > Microsoft doesn't
> > > > listen to someone that knows how sloppy they are, they certiantly
> won't
> > > > listen to
> > > > a dumb user that has no idea of the work under the hood. This is a
big
> > > part
> > > > of why
> > > > I'm so vocal here. As a group we should put pressure on for better
> > > > solutions.

> > > One would have a little more credibility putting pressure when they
stay
> > > away from
> > > " Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
> faking
> > > it until they do?"

> > > If there is a successful software company, it is MS, and didn't become
> one
> > > by NOT knowing waht it is doing.  You can criticize them all you want,
> but
> > > until someone does better....

> > > And like I mentioned, Palm has a 90% share today, care to wager how
> small
> > > this will be in five years?  And criticism can you have then?  That MS
> > used

...

read more »

 
 
 

Palm OS Developer has question for PocketPC developers

Post by Clifford Jone » Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:11:17


Chris, what you've said is very reasonable.

I did learn quite a bit on your site.
One of the things I learned is you are an asset for Microsoft.

Thanks for your efforts.

"Chris Tacke, eMVP" <cta...@innovativedss.com> wrote in message
news:OeCBMsnlBHA.1968@tkmsftngp07...

> I've written software that controlled the QA and manufacture of blood
> oxygenators used in open-heart surgery, and I did it with a Microsoft
> product.  Does that say how much I trust them?

> I'll be the first to admit eVB has MANY shortcomings, but I also feel well
> qualified to be able to say a Desktop VB developer can write a mobile
> application for a Pocket PC in eVB that is shippable in FAR less time than
> it would take for them to learn C/C++ plus all of Codewarrior and Palm's
> issues (and don't try to say it hasn't got any, I've programmed for the
> them).

> If you want a better comparison, look and eVC, though I still maintain
> you're comparing two significantly dissimilar items, so the comparison is
> invalid.

> As for emulation, I think anyone who has done CE development will agree
the
> current emulator sucks ass.  Did Palm make their emulator?  No.  Did
> Metrowerks? No.  How long has POSE been around for the bugs to get worked
> out?  The CE emulator is how old?  I've seen the next generation emulator.
> It's a real emulator and will do a lot of cool stuff.  Some that POSE
won't
> do, but it still lacks some features that POSE has (and I've made the
> suggestions personally to Microsoft).

> You seem hell-bent on trashing Microsoft in hopes that they will listen
and
> change their ways, presumably to provide exactly what you want.  I don't
see
> any point in trying to dissuade you.

> In my view, CE and Palm OS are two completely different reals for
completely
> different uses and applications.  Palm OS is great for a PDA, and if I
> wanted a PDA strictly for PDA stuff, I'd use a Palm.  If you want to
control
> some sort of embedded device or have a handheld that does a good amount of
> processing or requires large data files, I'd go with CE.  Again, I try to
> provide our customers with a product that will do what they need.  I don't
> give a damn who it comes from.

> -Chris

> P.S.  I'm glad to see you read so much of our site.  Sure, it gave you
great
> posting material, but maybe it gave you some information that will allow
you
> to produce a better product or produce what you're after in less time.

> "Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message
> news:epTHwGilBHA.1608@tkmsftngp04...
> > Shripathi

> > Well it seems you're now trying to anlize what you say is a "feeling of
> > inadequacy".

> > This is what happens when someone says something could be better.
> > a small percentage of the population will fight to keep it the same.
> > They will even regress to personal issues.

> > How's this sound, you're so happy with the tools you have, keep them
> > and I'll use the ones 2 years from now that have been refined because
> > of the complaints like mine that have been taken seriously.

> > Engineered solutions don't get better on there own. Feedback is
required.
> > Most of the time negative feeback creates the greatest improvement.

> > Just a last point, I write software that controls Manufacturing
Machines.
> > These
> > Are things that move when the computer tells it to. Some of the
machinery
> > has a
> > great deal of power. These machines could squash a person like a bug.
> > If there is a bug in the software, people could be killed if the power
> > didn't shut
> > off or the rollers came down when they were not suppose to. So, in many
> > cases
> > it is more serious than just telling people to simply "reinstall the
> > software" when
> > their game application doesn't work right or you couldn't look up the
> score
> > of a football game over your wireless connection.

> > This is why this matters to me. What responsibilities do you have for
your
> > software?

> > "Shripathi Kamath" <skam...@Home.com> wrote in message
> > news:9cIZ7.19611$B61.7632563@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...

> > > "Clifford Jones" <cjo...@narlysoftware.com> wrote in message
> > > news:uZtznUclBHA.2432@tkmsftngp02...
> > > > Hear are my responses to your comments.

> > > > >Can you please elaborate on how you came up with the 4 times
factor?
> I
> > > > >think the Win98 requirement comes from support for Unicode being
> absent
> > > on
> > > > >Win98.

> > > > I'm waiting for $1300 worth of IPaq product from Compaq as my 3870
is
> > > > on backorder. I didn't want to stand still but to begin developing
the
> > > > solutions
> > > > I need on the PocketPC platform. So, I'd say It costs a lot more
than
> a
> > > > PalmIIIC at $199 and a copy of Metrowerks Codewarrier about $350.

> > > Apples to apples please!  And even at your comparison with specious
> > pricing
> > > (comparing a top of the line 3870, which incidentally is $599, not
$1300
> > to
> > > a Palm IIIC), it ain't 4x!

> > > And if you went back to your original post didn't you brag that all
Palm
> > > tools were free?  Why are you paying for CodeWarrior?

> > > > Yea I know it will do more but with much much more effort and
dollars.
> > > > Boy is the C++ Class Browser in Codewarrier great!

> > > That is a subjective evaluation, which can only be taken seriously if
> > backed
> > > up by factual data.

> > > > >> Why do all you developers of Pocket PC put up with such crappy
> > software
> > > > >> tools?

> > > > >I for one do not, can you elaborate as to which software tool is
> > 'crappy'
> > > > >and why?

> > > > There are more bugs/oversites or undersites in the Microsoft CE and
> > tools
> > > > than
> > > > carter has liver pills. In addition to that they are very very
> difficult
> > > to
> > > > put togeather
> > > > actual applications and debug them.

> > > Again, more generalities, and a strong feeling of inadequacy...

> > > > Examples are as follows:
> > > > 1) goto http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx and
> > search
> > > > under
> > > > Windows CE and type in the word bug. You'll find 100 articles.
Imagine
> > > > creating
> > > > an application only to find you have to back up and take a different
> > > > approach for
> > > > each of these. (Time wasted big time)

> > > Er, this was about tools, you need to compare eVC/eVB to something
else,
> > not
> > > CE itself.

> > > > 2) Look up the article "How to Write and Use ActiveX controls for
> > > Microsoft
> > > > Windows CE 3.0" When it comes time to create one you find your
suppost
> > to
> > > > manualy make 2nd copies of your source and fake out the OS into
> thinking
> > > you
> > > > only have one UUID when in fact you need two of these so called
unique
> > ids
> > > > in order to have a design time control. Once again this cluge is
> caused
> > > > because
> > > > of the missdirected emulator Microsoft put out that I'm going to be
> > forced
> > > > to use
> > > > if I want to write apps for the IPaq. Oh, by the way eithernet is
> > > > recommended for
> > > > the connection to a real machine. That's more money and hardware
also
> to
> > > > cover
> > > > for a poor design. The Emulator can't even save multiple sessions.

> > > There was consensus that the emulator wasn't up to snuff, so what?

> > > > 3) Imagine the sales pitch, Pocket versions of Excel and Word. What
a
> > > bunch
> > > > of crap.

> > > And how exactly is this sales pitch making it difficult for you to
> develop
> > > software?

> > > > They are totaly different applcations with totaly different file
> > formats.
> > > As
> > > > I've investigated
> > > > the file formats it has become clear that the so called Experts at
> > > Microsoft
> > > > seem to be
> > > > doing everything in thier power to complicate the usage of these
> > products
> > > > instead of
> > > > evolving to somthing simpler to use. For Gods sake just about every
> file
> > > > type has
> > > > been recreated with a different format. So much for ease of use when
> > > copying
> > > > files
> > > > from our PocketPC to CF cards and to the PC. Look what it takes to
do
> a
> > > > complete
> > > > backup of a PocketPC. Ick... The articals just say reinstall the
> > software
> > > > applications.

> > > Don't use them since you don't use them on your PalmOS anyway!  It
will
> > NOT
> > > affect your development for the PocketPC.  They are applications, not
> > > development tools.

> > > > How much free time do you have?

> > > > >> Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
> > > faking
> > > > it
> > > > >> until they do?

> > > > >As long as PocketPC sells, it does not matter to me.

> > > > Guys, it should matter to us. As long as the develpers have the
> attitude
> > > > that
> > > > it doesn't matter, we will continue to get the examples I listed
> above.
> > If
> > > > Microsoft doesn't
> > > > listen to someone that knows how sloppy they are, they certiantly
> won't
> > > > listen to
> > > > a dumb user that has no idea of the work under the hood. This is a
big
> > > part
> > > > of why
> > > > I'm so vocal here. As a group we should put pressure on for better
> > > > solutions.

> > > One would have a little more credibility putting pressure when they
stay
> > > away from
> > > " Do you really believe Microsoft knows what they are doing or just
> faking
> > > it until they do?"

> > > If there is a successful software company, it is MS, and didn't become
> one
> > > by NOT knowing waht it is doing.  You can criticize them all you want,
> but
> > > until someone does better....

> > > And like I mentioned, Palm has a 90% share today, care to wager how
> small
> > > this will be in five years?  And criticism can you have then?  That MS
> > used

...

read more »

 
 
 

1. WANTED: Pocket PC and Palm OS developer : Contract Basis

Visionary Design LLC is looking for an experienced PC, Pocket PC and
Palm OS developer to work on a contract basis for new project
underdevelopment.

Must have strong knowledge of the operation systems in question and
have good written and verbal communication skills. Must be able to
work with other team members and have a vision to think outside of the
box.

Skills:
Code Warrior for Palm
Various Palm development tools
Microsoft eMbedded Visual C++? 3.0 (preferred)
Microsoft eMbedded Visual Basic? 3.0.
Visual C++
W3 HTTP understanding
HTML
Understanding of Java and other script languages
Installer Applications
Some Understanding of UNIX, PHP, Apache (but not necessary)

(Prefer someone in the San Francisco Bay Area, but depending on skills
we will consider other applications)

Those interested applications please send your resume via email to

Due to the nature of this project we cannot discuss it openly and a
NDA will be required for more details of this project.

2. Sportster ISDN extern und Winfaxpro 9.0

3. Palm OS Developers Needed - Southern NJ

4. (no subject)

5. Developer support for new PocketPC os

6. Export message

7. Question for PocketPc Developers

8. FILES FROM LISTSERV@TCSVM.BITNET

9. New palm developer (<NazSoft>-01112002-0957GMT)

10. Palm developer wants to come over...

11. PalmStation revelation, 83% of Palm OS fanatics prefer Palm OS!

12. Developer One software question

13. Newbie Developer Question