Very Computer

First, I want to make clear that if I have posted this to the incorrect
newsgroup than my sincere apologies.  If anyone would be kind enough to tell me
where this should be posted then I'd be greatfull.

Otherwise, here goes.

I am currently trying to figure out what it would take to get back into the
SysAdmin world.  I was laid off about 15 months ago after spending 8 years as a
Software Eng (actually, more maintenance work, SQL queries.)  Prior to this, I
spent 7 years as a Unix Sys Admin 1985-1993.  I absolutely love the work, but
have been out of it for almost 10 years.  Plenty has changed.  During my
unemployment, I paid for my own Sun Solaris training (SysAdmin I&II and
Networking).  I have experience in PERL, C, JAVA, HTML, blah, blah, blah.  I
see job ads asking for a B.S. in Comp Sci, Veritas experience, etc.  I
currently have a A.A.S in Information Technology and just started my B.S. in
Comp Sci.

What do companies/managers really look for in a candidate?
Is the Bachelor's really that important?
How can I get my foot back in the door?

All sincere feedback would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks
HW

Well, aside from the usual stuff that any employer would expect, you
should probably be well-versed in current technology (whatever's
trendy this week) and show initiative in learning new technologies.

Quote:> Is the Bachelor's really that important?

Probably not.  Depends on the company.  If you have the experience, or
have demonstrated knowledge, you should be OK.

Quote:> How can I get my foot back in the door?

Well, I hate to say it, but now is really not a good time.  The job
market is still in quite a bit of turmoil (though there are
*occasional* signs of improvement).  I signed on with $COMPANY right
at the very end of the "dot.com boom" (end of 2000), when things were
just beginning to go to hell.  All I had to do then was post my resume
and was immediately bombarded with calls from headhunters.  I *still*
get the occasional call, but only very rarely.

In your case, you had 8 years experience, but that was 9 years ago.
In this field, dramatic change can happen in the space of a few
months.  I would suggest you start reading all the trade journals
(SysAdmin magazine, for starters), check out the web sites related to
unix admin (there are boatloads of them), and even check out the
linux-kiddie sites (slashdot).  If you don't know Linux, learn it.  If
you don't know FreeBSD, learn it.  If you don't know Solaris, learn
it (good work on your Solaris training, which you mentioned, but make
sure you're current).  Right now, Solaris and Linux are the big
players.  FreeBSD is moving up there, too. To a lesser extent,
HP-UX and AIX.

You may also wish to read up on Windows 2000, Active Directory,
M-Sexchange [sic], and brush up your networking skills.

At the lower level, be familiar with SAN technology.  It's fast
becoming very popular.  Veritas products are a must in such
environments.

Oh, and know LDAP, too.

In general, I could go on for days describing the things you need to
know about, but they will vary widely from one company to the next.
To be as brief as possible, one rule applies: be as well-rounded as
possible.

If possible, find yourself a lower-level (junior) unix admin position
for a while just to reacquaint yourself with technologies and how
things are done down here in the trenches.  Sure, you may spend a lot
of time changing tapes and debugging desktop user problems, but how
else to learn?

One other thing: a slight bit of insanity may be required.  If you
don't have it now, don't worry - it'll come in time :)

Good luck, and I hope all this helps somewhat.

--
  1) Insert bullet
  2) Place gun to head
  3) Pull trigger firmly until you hear a loud bang.

                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                        Which sites?

Quote:> linux-kiddie sites (slashdot).  If you don't know Linux, learn it.  If
> you don't know FreeBSD, learn it.  If you don't know Solaris, learn
> it (good work on your Solaris training, which you mentioned, but make
> sure you're current).  Right now, Solaris and Linux are the big
> players.  FreeBSD is moving up there, too. To a lesser extent,
> HP-UX and AIX.

> You may also wish to read up on Windows 2000, Active Directory,
> M-Sexchange [sic], and brush up your networking skills.

> At the lower level, be familiar with SAN technology.  It's fast
> becoming very popular.  Veritas products are a must in such
> environments.

> Oh, and know LDAP, too.

> In general, I could go on for days describing the things you need to
> know about, but they will vary widely from one company to the next.
> To be as brief as possible, one rule applies: be as well-rounded as
> possible.

> If possible, find yourself a lower-level (junior) unix admin position
> for a while just to reacquaint yourself with technologies and how
> things are done down here in the trenches.  Sure, you may spend a lot
> of time changing tapes and debugging desktop user problems, but how
> else to learn?

> One other thing: a slight bit of insanity may be required.  If you
> don't have it now, don't worry - it'll come in time :)

> Good luck, and I hope all this helps somewhat.

> --
>   1) Insert bullet
>   2) Place gun to head
>   3) Pull trigger firmly until you hear a loud bang.

        Since he is asking his question on "comp.unix.admin", he probably wants
to admin UNIX systems, Max.  There is no need for him to learn non UNIX
systems like LINUX and FreeBSD.

                Hope this helps,
                        Don

--
***********************      You a bounty hunter?
* Rev. Don McDonald   *      Man's gotta earn a living.
* Baltimore, MD       *      Dying ain't much of a living, boy.
***********************             "Outlaw Josey Wales"

Interesting.  Why do you consider Linux and FreeBSD non-unix?  I always looked
at these systems as variants the Berkley and ATT code.  Am I mistaken?

Thanks
HW

Quote:> Interesting.  Why do you consider Linux and FreeBSD non-unix?  I always looked
> at these systems as variants the Berkley and ATT code.  Am I mistaken?

Don't worry about Don - he has, er, issues.  Basically, any decent
Unix admin can admin linux and free/netBSD systems, and there are certainly
more oddities between UNIX(r) systems than you'll find between, say,
Solaris and any of the Linux distros.  

The key, really, is in understanding what you're actually *doing*, not
in just memorizing one particular os's tools by rote.  If you understand
what's happening, moving around between, say, Solaris, HP-UX, Linux,
and Irix, is no different than going from driving one car to the other.

In regards to this group, it's a general group for "unix-based systems",
so all things unix-y are just fine here, but if you're asking specifically
a Solaris or Irix or Linux question, there may be better places.  Don't
sweat it, most of us here are quite helpful.

Dave Hinz

Quote:> Since he is asking his question on "comp.unix.admin", he probably wants
> to admin UNIX systems, Max.  There is no need for him to learn non UNIX
> systems like LINUX and FreeBSD.

    So, Don can you point me to this newsgroup's charter? I'd like to see
what it has to say about the allowed topics of conversation.  Or are you the
self-imposed moderator of this group?

Quote:> All sincere feedback would be greatly appreciated.

> Thanks
> HW

Add Don to your killfile it will asve you lots of time you would otherwise
spend on reading his drivel, which replaces any useful information in his
postings.

Literally, "UNIX" means "registered UNIX systems".  LINUX and
FreeBSD are not registered UNIX systems.  However, many people use
"UNIX", "Unix", and "unix" as generic terms.  If you look at

   http://www.unix-systems.org/trademark.html

you'see that it says about UNIX

   "It must not be used as a generic term."

Peter

--
Where do bit streams end?  In bit rivers?

Peter J. Acklam on Monday 06 May 2002 00:53:

Of course, it says nothing about using Unix or unix as a generic term
and, AFAIK, the open group doesn't own or control this newsgroup.  

Well, no, not explicitly, but The Open Group says about the term
"Unix-like" that it "is an abuse of the UNIX trademark, and should
not be used".  I not sure if it is an abuse in a legal sense,
though.  See

   http://www.unix-systems.org/questions_answers.html

and the answer to the question "What is a "Unix-like" operating
system?".

Quote:> AFAIK, the open group doesn't own or control this newsgroup.

They don't.

I believe "unix", as it is used in the "comp.unix.*" hierarchy, is
a generic term, regardless of The Open Group and Rev. Don.

Peter

--
Where do bit streams end?  In bit rivers?

He cannot.  No charter has ever been posted, and noone who has looked for it
has found one.  It would seem to be one of the groups that was created when
the news/comp/sci/soc/talk/misc heirarchies were created back in the days
when the net hierarchy outgrew itself.

So, is it time do to a Call For Discussion to retroactively write a charter?

Quote:> Or are you the self-imposed moderator of this group?

Basically.  In particular, he is a self-imposed defender of the trademark.

Quote:

> > In your case, you had 8 years experience, but that was 9 years ago.
> > In this field, dramatic change can happen in the space of a few
> > months.  I would suggest you start reading all the trade journals
> > (SysAdmin magazine, for starters), check out the web sites related to
> > unix admin (there are boatloads of them), and even check out the
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                         Which sites?

  let's see start with www.stokely.com
 and  http://www.latech.edu/sunman.html,
http://http://www.cerias.purdue.edu/homes/spaf/
 http://home1.gte.net/res0ka1e/xml/unix.xml

Quote:

> > linux-kiddie sites (slashdot).  If you don't know Linux, learn it.  If
> > you don't know FreeBSD, learn it.  If you don't know Solaris, learn
> > it (good work on your Solaris training, which you mentioned, but make
> > sure you're current).  Right now, Solaris and Linux are the big
> > players.  FreeBSD is moving up there, too. To a lesser extent,
> > HP-UX and AIX.

   Unix means Unix.  The previous owner of the trademark was Novell. How
much
value does this give Unix as a trademark?  Yep and -that- event was
discussed in this
newsgroup ad nasium. This group got started back when the issue was AT&T's
attempt to establish Unix as a trademark. It was a stupid idea then. It
still is...

   BSD unix is more unix than much of the current offerings but such
discussions
(even discounting the trolls) is pretty much a religious discussion.

 claiming that -only- Unix is that authorized by Open Software is much the
same as declaring that the only -True- Religion is Christianity as Practised
by the Republican Right (excluding catholics, prodestants, charasmatics,
orthodox, adventists, and mormons.)

 defining a catagory by excluding others is certaining one way to resolve
the
issue, but it really doesn't help anything except to help one group to feel
superior.

  Unix admin are alread superior (by definition) to Lusers..

The old entry for this group says it is for "Unix based" systems.
That conveniently avoids the advice against "Unix-like".  *BSD use
a Unix source code base IIRC, and Linux is based on Unix in the
sense of copying the behavior without recourse to the sources.