Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Harvey Rothenber » Mon, 26 Aug 1996 04:00:00



Does anyone out there know if and what certifications are regarded
valuable to management ?  I would like to reduce the questions to my
capablities.  I am looking for something similar to a CNA by Novell.  

I know it is a two sided issue, but I also know the customer/client looks
for these things to help them reach a comfort level.  Would I look to
Sun's certification or are there others. (Sun's was the only one to come
up on a "Search engine's request).

Your direction and information will be a great assistance.  Thanks!

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Maarten Boo » Tue, 27 Aug 1996 04:00:00



> Does anyone out there know if and what certifications are regarded
> valuable to management ?  I would like to reduce the questions to my
> capablities.  I am looking for something similar to a CNA by Novell.

> I know it is a two sided issue, but I also know the customer/client looks
> for these things to help them reach a comfort level.  Would I look to
> Sun's certification or are there others. (Sun's was the only one to come
> up on a "Search engine's request).

> Your direction and information will be a great assistance.  Thanks!

IBM has a certification programme for AIX

--
Maarten Boot
Systems Administrator Production Systems
Compuware Technology
tel: +31(0)20-3116-248


 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Harvey Rothenber » Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:00:00



> Does anyone out there know if and what certifications are regarded
> valuable to management ?  I would like to reduce the questions to my
> capablities.  I am looking for something similar to a CNA by Novell.

> I know it is a two sided issue, but I also know the customer/client looks
> for these things to help them reach a comfort level.  Would I look to
> Sun's certification or are there others. (Sun's was the only one to come
> up on a "Search engine's request).

> Your direction and information will be a great assistance.  Thanks!

It looks like the first message does not grab the attention of readers.
The basic question is,  is certification important and who's is the best
R.O.I.?????
 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Harvey Rothenber » Fri, 30 Aug 1996 04:00:00




> > Does anyone out there know if and what certifications are regarded
> > valuable to management ?  I would like to reduce the questions to my
> > capablities.  I am looking for something similar to a CNA by Novell.

> > I know it is a two sided issue, but I also know the customer/client looks
> > for these things to help them reach a comfort level.  Would I look to
> > Sun's certification or are there others. (Sun's was the only one to come
> > up on a "Search engine's request).

> > Your direction and information will be a great assistance.  Thanks!

> IBM has a certification programme for AIX

Mr. Boot:

I Thank you for this piece of info.  I was not aware of IBM having a program.

I would like to follow this information up with a question.  Would you seek
out graduates of this program to assist you based on their tranining from
this program ??  Is it as well regarded as Novell's CNE for a well round network
support person, or is it like I hear about Microsoft's Solution Providers Program
(not as well rounded). [this came from a trainer who had attended both and really
reflects his personnel feelings]

I appreciate your comment, if you could.  Thanks

Harvey

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Peter L. Bergho » Tue, 03 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Just one man's opinion here....

It is my experience that certifications aren't always worth the paper
they are printed on.  I knew a fellow that had a CNE and looked at me
totally dumbfounded when I was explaining that we had a 10BaseT based
network to the desktops and FIORL between wire closets.  

The question he asked was "Is 10BaseT anything like Token Ring?"

Same man could not understand why I wouldn't convert all the TCP/IP
based HP workstations over to IPX/SPX... He felt that we shouldn't run
TCP/IP because "there is too much traffic on the network.."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb + Sr. Unix Specialist   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Mark Henders » Tue, 03 Sep 1996 04:00:00




Quote:>Just one man's opinion here....
>It is my experience that certifications aren't always worth the paper
>they are printed on.  I knew a fellow that had a CNE and looked at me
>totally dumbfounded when I was explaining that we had a 10BaseT based
>network to the desktops and FIORL between wire closets.  

>The question he asked was "Is 10BaseT anything like Token Ring?"

>Same man could not understand why I wouldn't convert all the TCP/IP
>based HP workstations over to IPX/SPX... He felt that we shouldn't run
>TCP/IP because "there is too much traffic on the network.."

I was on the interview team for a Novell Admin (I'm a UNIX geek)
about six months ago. Not really knowing much about Novell I asked
the CNE candidate a couple of questions about how a Novell client
workstation comes up. Which finally lead to the question...

"What do you mean by nearest server? i.e. How does a workstation determine
the nearest server."

Well, the candidate in question seemed somewhat flustered. He finally came
out with the answer "the server that is physically closest to the client".

I then asked,
"So, what you're telling me is that if server A is 100 metres away
from the client and server B is 110 metres from the client, then the
client workstation will always bind to server A. Is this correct? Is this
still true even if server A is really busy and takes a long time to reply
to the request?"

Of course, the answers were "yes". Otherwise, I wouldn't be telling
this story.

I asked a few questions about TCP/IP. The candidate then got e*d
because he said that was one of the things he specialised in when
he got his CNE. Unfortunately he didn't know what ARP was (he knew
what it stood for, but had know idea as to its function), couldn't
tell me the difference between a class B and a class C IP address,
couldn't coherently explain subnetting, etc. About the only thing
he knew about IP was that the stations have a 32 bit address.

The best Novell admin I've ever worked with wasn't even a CNE. This
person really understood what was going on. When started that job he
knew _nothing_ about UNIX. While I was working with him, he was
spending lots of time learning about UNIX. Interestingly enough, the
next job he got was as a UNIX sysadmin ;-) Probably a loss to the
Novell world. He told me that he just found UNIX more interesting
because he could keep learning more and more about it.

I'm not saying that a CNE is a bad thing to have, or that all people
with the qualification are idiots. Many people who hire Novell admins
use that CNE as a prerequisite to get an interview. I've know some
CNEs who were very competent folks.

On the other hand, when interviewing, I don't think it is safe to
presume that someone with a CNE knows much of anything, without
talking to that person.

--

ViaCrypt PGP Key Fingerprint: 21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1  A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46
unstrip for Solaris, Wimsey crypto archive, TECO, computer security links,
change-sun-hostid, Sun NVRAM/hostid FAQ - http://www.veryComputer.com/

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Ling Wan » Wed, 04 Sep 1996 04:00:00



> Just one man's opinion here....

> It is my experience that certifications aren't always worth the paper
> they are printed on.  I knew a fellow that had a CNE and looked at me
> totally dumbfounded when I was explaining that we had a 10BaseT based
> network to the desktops and FIORL between wire closets.

> The question he asked was "Is 10BaseT anything like Token Ring?"

> Same man could not understand why I wouldn't convert all the TCP/IP
> based HP workstations over to IPX/SPX... He felt that we shouldn't run
> TCP/IP because "there is too much traffic on the network.."

Almost all the CNEs I've met were technical school grads
who think they had to get into networking, sneaker net
is not in anymore etc.

The top IS boss in one of my old job had me install HP openview
on a Sun box and monitor all the Hubs and routers.  I said
I could also monitor all the Sun servers/clients with the
daemons, but they thought it was pointless(???).  After the
setup, they send the CNE to a UNIX admin course so that he could
learn how to use openview.  All because he had the word
network in his title Network Administrator, and I did
not in my System Administrator title.
Then after taking the UNIX course, the bozo comes and tell
me UNIX is insecure because one could log into it(like
lets get rid of the whole concept of unix).  Of course, I'll
just let him physically run around fixing problems because
he can't fix resolve any issues on the clients side.

And when I recommend software for the UNIX servers (e.g. fax server)
for the business unix, the CNE tells me why put it on UNIX,
when a NLM equivalent version "will" come out in a few months.
Of course, the brain dead managers who has been brainwashed
thinks UNIX is hard to use, Netware is king always gives
to the person with the brownest nose.

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Harvey Rothenber » Wed, 04 Sep 1996 04:00:00





> >Just one man's opinion here....
> >It is my experience that certifications aren't always worth the paper
> >they are printed on.  I knew a fellow that had a CNE and looked at me
> >totally dumbfounded when I was explaining that we had a 10BaseT based
> >network to the desktops and FIORL between wire closets.

> >The question he asked was "Is 10BaseT anything like Token Ring?"

> >Same man could not understand why I wouldn't convert all the TCP/IP
> >based HP workstations over to IPX/SPX... He felt that we shouldn't run
> >TCP/IP because "there is too much traffic on the network.."

It would seem that this incident would prove that this certification CAN
BE BOUGHT, or he was actually the sales Rep. and NOT the tech (who was
probably out sick that day).  Did you verifiy he claim ?

Quote:>    <snip>

> The best Novell admin I've ever worked with wasn't even a CNE. This
> person really understood what was going on. When started that job he
> knew _nothing_ about UNIX. While I was working with him, he was
> spending lots of time learning about UNIX. Interestingly enough, the
> next job he got was as a UNIX sysadmin ;-) Probably a loss to the
> Novell world. He told me that he just found UNIX more interesting
> because he could keep learning more and more about it.

> I'm not saying that a CNE is a bad thing to have, or that all people
> with the qualification are idiots. Many people who hire Novell admins
> use that CNE as a prerequisite to get an interview. I've know some
> CNEs who were very competent folks.

Maybe the interviewee was one of those people who were grandfathered into
the program ?   I'm guessing since I did not see the person.

Harvey

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Harvey Rothenber » Wed, 04 Sep 1996 04:00:00




> > Just one man's opinion here....

> > It is my experience that certifications aren't always worth the paper
> > they are printed on.  I knew a fellow that had a CNE and looked at me
> > totally dumbfounded when I was explaining that we had a 10BaseT based
> > network to the desktops and FIORL between wire closets.

> > The question he asked was "Is 10BaseT anything like Token Ring?"

> > Same man could not understand why I wouldn't convert all the TCP/IP
> > based HP workstations over to IPX/SPX... He felt that we shouldn't run
> > TCP/IP because "there is too much traffic on the network.."

> Almost all the CNEs I've met were technical school grads
> who think they had to get into networking, sneaker net
> is not in anymore etc.

        <snip>

So, what are you guys saying here ??  Put your self into the
bosses shoes.  What would you use as a quick determinate ??
Don't forget you have about 50 to 75 resumes to review to find
the people you wish to talk with.

This is what they are faced with.  Maybe it is like when a person
is trying to find a contractor for fixing his house.  The advise
to the buyer is for them to verify and check the contractors
references.  In home repair they still have these problems and
they are heavily regulated and licensed.

What is the solution of this Certificating ???

-------
Harvey R.
"These are my own personal views, but they are born
out of experience"

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by bill davids » Wed, 04 Sep 1996 04:00:00




| >
| > Does anyone out there know if and what certifications are regarded
| > valuable to management ?  I would like to reduce the questions to my
| > capablities.  I am looking for something similar to a CNA by Novell.
| >
| > I know it is a two sided issue, but I also know the customer/client looks
| > for these things to help them reach a comfort level.  Would I look to
| > Sun's certification or are there others. (Sun's was the only one to come
| > up on a "Search engine's request).
| >
| > Your direction and information will be a great assistance.  Thanks!
|
| It looks like the first message does not grab the attention of readers.
| The basic question is,  is certification important and who's is the best
| R.O.I.?????

Personally I am minimally impressed by any certification, and that
mainly for entry level people. Experience, particularly *without*
formal training, is a good indicator of ability to learn new stuff,
which is what all of us are doing.

Systems administrators should know what they are trying to do, they
can work out the details of how from man pages. If you don't know
what you are trying to do you can't do it.
--

"As a software development model, Anarchy does not scale well."
                -Dave Welch

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Paul M. Moriart » Thu, 05 Sep 1996 04:00:00


[...]

Quote:> Personally I am minimally impressed by any certification, and that
> mainly for entry level people. Experience, particularly *without*
> formal training, is a good indicator of ability to learn new stuff,
> which is what all of us are doing.

Really?  Would you go to a doctor that isn't certified in his field of
expertise? If you had the misfortune of being arrested, would you prefer
to be represented by somebody who wasn't a member of the Bar?  Would you
prefer your bridges be built by any Joe Schmoe who claims to be an
engineer?

Is certification a be-all and end-all?  No.  It is merely an indication
of expertise.

-> Paul <-

--
Paul M. Moriarty
Chair, SAGE Certification Working Group

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Don Re » Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:00:00


In the beginning, or at least on Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:47:17 +0100,  Ling Wang

Quote:

>I could also monitor all the Sun servers/clients with the
>daemons, but they thought it was pointless(???).

A few months back, some of the managers & I were talking about adding &
supporting several terminals, PC's & printers some 30 miles north of here.
Went thru all the hardware costs + time to write a few customized daemons;
everybody nods their head yes and sez that is good.

Afterwards, my manager (a engineer turned salesdroid) walks up and tells me
that he is a bit concerned about those "demon" thing-ies.

I tell him "Chuck, don't sweat it, those are the good viruses."

(now he feels much better; doesn't understand it, but he feels better.)

Quote:>Then after taking the UNIX course, the bozo comes and tell
>me UNIX is insecure because one could log into it

[insert your coffee -> keyboard snort here]

Grab the clue-stick boys, we're a-hunting a CNE luser ....

--


 Calcasieu Lumber Co.                    Austin TX
    will sysadmin for food ...

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Harvey Rothenber » Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:00:00




> [...]
> > Personally I am minimally impressed by any certification, and that
> > mainly for entry level people. Experience, particularly *without*
> > formal training, is a good indicator of ability to learn new stuff,
> > which is what all of us are doing.

> Really?  Would you go to a doctor that isn't certified in his field of
> expertise? If you had the misfortune of being arrested, would you prefer
> to be represented by somebody who wasn't a member of the Bar?  Would you
> prefer your bridges be built by any Joe Schmoe who claims to be an
> engineer?

> Is certification a be-all and end-all?  No.  It is merely an indication
> of expertise.

Paul, I see certication as a starting level, but I do not see it as
expertise.  I beleive that expertise has to be proven by competency of
work.  Which does translate into experience level.  I do not see train-
ing as the main determination.  Medical training even requires many years
of practical experience before the doctor is certified in general practice
or specialty.  Even with this in the Medical field look at all the problems
that still occur evey day.

You still need to be a good cosumer, and check out the person or firms claims.
We all want to spend less time.

Thanks for reading my 2 cents.

Harvey

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> -> Paul <-

> --
> Paul M. Moriarty
> Chair, SAGE Certification Working Group

 
 
 

Recognized and Accepted Sys Admin Certifications

Post by Zebee Johnsto » Sat, 07 Sep 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>Really?  Would you go to a doctor that isn't certified in his field of
>expertise? If you had the misfortune of being arrested, would you prefer
>to be represented by somebody who wasn't a member of the Bar?  Would you
>prefer your bridges be built by any Joe Schmoe who claims to be an
>engineer?

Hmm.. plenty of incompetent doctors, lawyers, and bridgebuilders.

Plenty of dead patients, imprisoned innocents, and collapsed/unsafe
buildings too.

Certification is *not* an indicator of competence, it's an indicator the
person was able to get a certificate.

Zebee