UN*X on intel 8088...

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Christopher Pit » Wed, 06 Apr 1994 14:00:10



HELP!

ok actually I just need a pointer...
I know it will be VERY slow etc etc..
but I want to run UNIX on a 8088 (640k 125mb hd hercules monitor etc) but
so far have (go figure..) been unable to find a version that will run on an 8088
I KNOW they are out there, have heard bout them and such from "old timers :)"
can anyone please please (on hands and knees) tell me where I can find a copy?

Christopher C Pitts

ps. email would b great if u can, if not post here, our netnews is very

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Michael L. VanLo » Thu, 07 Apr 1994 02:28:20



Quote:>ok actually I just need a pointer...
>I know it will be VERY slow etc etc..
>but I want to run UNIX on a 8088 (640k 125mb hd hercules monitor etc) but
>so far have (go figure..) been unable to find a version that will run on an 8088
>I KNOW they are out there, have heard bout them and such from "old timers :)"
>can anyone please please (on hands and knees) tell me where I can find a copy?

I would suggest getting a copy from an old-timer then. :-)

Honestly, no company in its right mind would make a modern unix for an
8088.  It just wouldn't be able to run any modern software *at*all*.
All "virtual memory" would have to be emulated, and you could only
access at most 1meg or RAM (probably less).  And slow is quite the
understatement.  Mark Williams Co. even had problems getting Coherent
to run with anything big on a 286.  Trust me, it just wouldn't be
worth it -- any old copy of 8088 unix you find is surely going to be
very crippled by modern standards.

I don't know if Mark Williams still sells it, but they did have a
version of Coherent that ran nicely on 286's (version 3.2 I think it
was).  The problem is, even the 286 can only access 64k at a time, so
programs were limited to 64k data and 64k text (object code), and
there was no virtual memory support.  To make the system usable,
*lots* of extras were missing that I take for granted on my NetBSD
machine.

Mark Williams' had to make their current version of Coherent 386-based
to get it to do everything people wanted (such as sane shells like
tcsh, zsh, (dunno about ksh), X, sockets, full set of process signals,
programs larger than 128k, virtual memory, etc...).

I would recommend just breaking down and picking up a cheap used 386
if you're really strapped for funds.  Then you can install a free unix
on it and get everything to work the way it's supposed to.  Currently,
there are three different free unices: NetBSD, FreeBSD, and Linux.
Since they're all free, you could try each to see which you liked
best.

Personally, I run NetBSD.  It's an awesomely capable system, and I
wouldn't want anything else on my PC.  I highly recommend it, but
understand your tastes may differ.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 Michael L. VanLoon                 Iowa State University Computation Center

  Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free Un*x for PC/Mac/Amiga/etc.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Dongxiao Y » Sat, 09 Apr 1994 04:08:43



Quote:>ok actually I just need a pointer...
>I know it will be VERY slow etc etc..
>but I want to run UNIX on a 8088 (640k 125mb hd hercules monitor etc) but
>so far have (go figure..) been unable to find a version that will run on an 8088
>I KNOW they are out there, have heard bout them and such from "old timers :)"
>can anyone please please (on hands and knees) tell me where I can find a copy?

 We must understand that a multitasking OS such as UNIX requires
 hardware support.
 At least, the processor must be able to run in two modes: user mode, and
 system mode. The system runs in system mode(or protected mode?), it
 controls the crucial resources and instructions
 of the computer, so a single user will not
 be able to monopolize the machine(for example, delete the OS from
 memory).

 As I know such a two mode operation is not implemented in 8088, the major
  advance of 286 is that it provides protected-mode operation.

 Conclusion: you can run UNIX on 286 but not 8088.

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Christopher Pit » Sat, 09 Apr 1994 10:37:38



> We must understand that a multitasking OS such as UNIX requires
> hardware support.
> At least, the processor must be able to run in two modes: user mode, and
> system mode. The system runs in system mode(or protected mode?), it
> controls the crucial resources and instructions
> of the computer, so a single user will not
> be able to monopolize the machine(for example, delete the OS from
> memory).
> As I know such a two mode operation is not implemented in 8088, the major
>  advance of 286 is that it provides protected-mode operation.
> Conclusion: you can run UNIX on 286 but not 8088.

hmm given I am not a programmer but I HAVE been using computers in one form

or the other since 1982... so I really hate to tell ya this friend but
if you will go look at the old versions of *NIX ALOT of them would run on
8088 class machines.... now no a current 32 bit virtual memory os is gonna run on my 8088 DTK data 1000 but yea some old verions of *NIX will, I know this because
I was using an old copy of Coherent until a hd crash rid me of my only copy of it
the reason I asked the question is because I cannot find a copy of any of the
older versions of Coherent and know of no one who has a copy...    
BTW PC/IX VENIX XENIX COHERENT MINIX ALL run/ran on 8088's... so sorry but
you got this one wrong.

CONCLUSION
some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......

Christopher C Pitts

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-TEDDYBEAR_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Teddybear -N- Eore Together 4ever  Wedding on June 11th Like it or shut up
    IRCOP norman.ok.us.undernet.org TRY UNDERNET! A kinder gentler IRC
             Email for help with Internet. Newbies included
    YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE (John 8:32)
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-God Loves You!-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Alex Measd » Sun, 10 Apr 1994 02:50:19



>CONCLUSION
>some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......

And on the Commodore 128, too!  At the time I last used my C=128 a few
years ago, there was a version of UNIX being developed (by a college
student I think) for the 128, available via FTP.  I downloaded it once
and tried it, but it kept crashing.  I subsequently got myself a *real*
computer: a Tandy 1000HX!  :)  (I sure do miss the Paperback/Pocket
software on the C=128!)
--
                                Alex Measday
                                Integral Systems, Inc.

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by D'Arcy J.M. Ca » Sun, 10 Apr 1994 19:53:19




>> Conclusion: you can run UNIX on 286 but not 8088.
>if you will go look at the old versions of *NIX ALOT of them would run on
>8088 class machines.... now no a current 32 bit virtual memory os is gonna

I used to run a version of Unix called Micronix which ran on a Z80.  This
was even an official port of AT&T Version 7 Unix, not a clone.  I still
have the hardware in the ba*t.  It was a Morrow Decision I S100 based
system (they called it a WonderBus I think) with banked memory.  It could
run 3 users (they claimed 6) and cam with a CP/M emulator that dragged
the system to its knees.

--

PlanIX, Inc.                        |   There's no government
Toronto, Ontario, Canada            |   like no government!
+1 416 424 2871  (DoD#0082) (eNTP)  |

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Dongxiao Y » Wed, 13 Apr 1994 00:42:10



Quote:>hmm given I am not a programmer but I HAVE been using computers in one form
>the reason I asked the question is because I cannot find a copy of any of the
>older versions of Coherent and know of no one who has a copy...    
>BTW PC/IX VENIX XENIX COHERENT MINIX ALL run/ran on 8088's... so sorry but
>you got this one wrong.
>CONCLUSION
>some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......

You can write a dos program called *NIX and emulate some of UNIX, but can it
provide the true memory protection  needed for multitasking on a 8088?

When I say UNIX, I mean UNIX.

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Michael L. VanLo » Wed, 13 Apr 1994 13:05:49




>>hmm given I am not a programmer but I HAVE been using computers in one form
>>the reason I asked the question is because I cannot find a copy of any of the
>>older versions of Coherent and know of no one who has a copy...    
>>BTW PC/IX VENIX XENIX COHERENT MINIX ALL run/ran on 8088's... so sorry but
>>you got this one wrong.
>>CONCLUSION
>>some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......
>You can write a dos program called *NIX and emulate some of UNIX, but can it
>provide the true memory protection  needed for multitasking on a 8088?

>When I say UNIX, I mean UNIX.

WARNING:  UNIX has existed for a very long time in computer years.  It
did not always have those features.  Certainly you are not proposing
that First Edition Research UNIX in 1969 had anything even remotely
resembling Virtual Memory.  You would be hard pressed not to call that
UNIX.

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 Michael L. VanLoon                 Iowa State University Computation Center

  Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free Un*x for PC/Mac/Amiga/etc.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Dongxiao Y » Wed, 13 Apr 1994 12:34:51




>>CONCLUSION
>>some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......
>You can write a dos program called *NIX and emulate some of UNIX, but can it
>provide the true memory protection  needed for multitasking on a 8088?

>When I say UNIX, I mean UNIX.

 Since this group is called *.programmer, I assumed that most people
 know how program  excutes.

 Let's first define what is UNIX, then we can argue whether or not
 UNIX can run on 8088.

     My description : UNIX is a true multiuser OS, which means
                      a non-super
                      user A1's process P1 can not affect arbitarily
                      user B1's process P2 running under UNIX.

     If we agree on this, we can discuss further, if someone insist
     that something that does not satisfy the above criterion a UNIX,
      since it name ends with NIX,  I  quit the discussion.

 Now suppose some *NIX is running on 8088 ( I am not knowledgeble enough to
 know about Z-80, except that it was 8-bit ), A1's process P1 is preempted
 by B1's P2, P2 happens to be a bad program,

    It does something like

       jmp P1_code_seg
   or  mov P1_address garbage
   or  mov Some_important_register garbage

   Is there anything to stop this? No, because the machine see these
   instructions perfectly legal. Can we implement protection in software? No.

   What is the result? nobody knows, sometimes we have to reboot the machine,
   why? maybe the DOS in memory is damaged, so need to re-fetch from disk.

   If on a 286, we can run protected mode, use some of the memory as
   segment table, some intructions is priviliged, memory access is
   checked against the segment table and so on, then the bad guys
   will be stopped.

    This contrasts in

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Tom Bodi » Wed, 13 Apr 1994 22:39:15


I got this from our library's card catalog:
  AUTHOR:         Tanenbaum, Andrew S., 1944-
  TITLE:          MINIX for the IBM PC, XT, and AT / Andrew S. Tanenbaum.
  PUBLISHED:      Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, c1988.
  DESCRIPTION:    xv, 486 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
  NOTES:          Subtitle on cover: Reference manual.
                  Includes index.
  SUBJECTS:       MINIX (Computer operating system)
                  IBM microcomputers--Programming.
  SERIES:         Prentice-Hall software series.
  ISBN:           0135844002 (pbk.)
  OCLC NUMBER:    18186923

My archie is broken so I'd suggest trying archie to find source or asking
Dr. Tanenbaum.

---
                        Regards Tom Bodine
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
# Hatred and bitterness can never cure the disease of fear, only love
# can do that.   (Martin Luther King Jr.)
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by mark ha » Thu, 14 Apr 1994 02:23:06


| My archie is broken so I'd suggest trying archie to find source or asking
| Dr. Tanenbaum.

Tanenbaum takes the very dubious position that the source can only be
distributed by the publisher.  last time I checked, it was $80 or so.
definitely not worth it.  Linux is vastly more instructive and useful.

regards, mark hahn.
--

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Dongxiao Y » Thu, 14 Apr 1994 03:58:45





>>>CONCLUSION
>>>some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......
>>You can write a dos program called *NIX and emulate some of UNIX, but can it
>>provide the true memory protection  needed for multitasking on a 8088?

>>When I say UNIX, I mean UNIX.
>WARNING:  UNIX has existed for a very long time in computer years.  It
>did not always have those features.  Certainly you are not proposing
>that First Edition Research UNIX in 1969 had anything even remotely
>resembling Virtual Memory.  You would be hard pressed not to call that
>UNIX.

  If my memory does not fail me, the 'game' on the PDP-7 in 1969
  was called Unics, the first UNIX appeared 1971 on a PDP-11
  written in asembly, it had fork() already. Later it was rewritten in C.

  when a programmer thinks about UNIX, the first things
  emerge are frok(), pipe(), dup(), read(), write(),unlink(), signal() ....,
  or swapper, init ...., instead of vi, nroff, mail.

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by D'Arcy J.M. Ca » Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:56:50




>>You can write a dos program called *NIX and emulate some of UNIX, but can it
>>provide the true memory protection  needed for multitasking on a 8088?

> Now suppose some *NIX is running on 8088 ( I am not knowledgeble enough to
> know about Z-80, except that it was 8-bit ), A1's process P1 is preempted
> by B1's P2, P2 happens to be a bad program,

>    It does something like

>       jmp P1_code_seg
>   or  mov P1_address garbage
>   or  mov Some_important_register garbage

Boy, these youngsters!  They can't implement something unless the chip
manufacturer hands it to them on a silver platter.  :-)  It's easy.  First
you design an instruction set that implements memory protection, virtual
memory or whatever you want.  Then you write an interpreter for this
instruction set in 8088 (or Z80 or 8080 or 8008 or 4004 or 6502 or ...)
and then you implement your *nix in this instruction set.  No problem.
Well there is if you also expect it to be fast.

Just a data point but Morrow had Unix, an official AT&T port of Version
7, running on a Z80 and I am pretty sure it had memory protection.  It
also had more than 64K memory.  We used to call that "banked memory"
before Lotus/Intel/Microsoft "invented" it and called it "expanded
memory" just to confuse people.

--

PlanIX, Inc.                        |   There's no government
Toronto, Ontario, Canada            |   like no government!
+1 416 424 2871  (DoD#0082) (eNTP)  |

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Nate Willia » Thu, 14 Apr 1994 06:02:39






>>>BTW PC/IX VENIX XENIX COHERENT MINIX ALL run/ran on 8088's... so sorry but
>>>you got this one wrong.

>>>CONCLUSION
>>>some *NIX clones WILL run on 8088's......

>>You can write a dos program called *NIX and emulate some of UNIX, but can it
>>provide the true memory protection  needed for multitasking on a 8088?

>>When I say UNIX, I mean UNIX.

>WARNING:  UNIX has existed for a very long time in computer years.  It
>did not always have those features.

All *NIX's that are considered 'real' had memory protection features
when the hardware provided them.  However, the i80[86]8 processor does
not provide hardware memory protection, so you can not guarantee that
one process will not wipe-out another processes.

Quote:> Certainly you are not proposing
>that First Edition Research UNIX in 1969 had anything even remotely
>resembling Virtual Memory.

Memory protection and Virtual Memory are two completely different animals.

I have (well, had) PC/IX running on my 286-10 at home until the hard-disk
crashed which was a very faithful port of SysIII *nix.  However, since it
was written for the 8088 it doesn't provide any hardware protection.  In
some people's opinion it doesn't count as 'Real' unix even though it's
a very straightforward port of SysIII.  (Since it doesn't take advantage
of the 286's hardware protection of memory)

Nate

--


work #: (406) 994-4836       |  Graduating May '94 with a BS in EE
home #: (406) 586-0579       |  - looking for work in CS/EE field.

 
 
 

UN*X on intel 8088...

Post by Dongxiao Y » Sat, 16 Apr 1994 03:20:23




>>    It does something like

>>       jmp P1_code_seg
>>   or  mov P1_address garbage
>>   or  mov Some_important_register garbage
>Boy, these youngsters!  They can't implement something unless the chip
>manufacturer hands it to them on a silver platter.  :-)  It's easy.  First
>you design an instruction set that implements memory protection, virtual
>memory or whatever you want.  Then you write an interpreter for this
>instruction set in 8088 (or Z80 or 8080 or 8008 or 4004 or 6502 or ...)

  hmmm, Interpreter? Isn't the interpreter a  program ?
  In the wildest dreams, we wrote a interpreter...

 We have a single processor, when a program

 jmp some_where

 How can the proccesor knows there exists an interpreter created by an old man?  
 How can it translate some_where to elsewhere, when operate only in real mode?

 It is just a machine, it just carry out whatever instructions.
 I don't even know what to say!

Quote:>and then you implement your *nix in this instruction set.  No problem.
>Well there is if you also expect it to be fast.

  Don't consider a machine something with intelligence.
  Hope this will induce some thoughts.
>--

>PlanIX, Inc.                        |   There's no government
>Toronto, Ontario, Canada            |   like no government!
>+1 416 424 2871  (DoD#0082) (eNTP)  |

 
 
 

1. > UN*X on a 8088

 have picked up the manuals for two operating systems that say that they run up to 3 users
with multiple processes.

these are
        PCNX
        PCVMS

I don`t have the disks as the manuals were picked out if the rubbish.

but.... tis software was written specifically for the Xt and AT
anything else was non-existant?

both operating systems are copy and use as primary command shells instead of command.com

and are 'able to run must well behaved MS-DOS software'
the company they are from is Wendin, Inc
based in the USA
it comes complete with source code and 'supports a dynamic mix of timeshareing and realtime processes.

If anyone has a copy of either software in their 360Kb bunkers,
I would love to own a copy - I am willing to pay for it if .
is  or has anyone run this with an ethernet network, ie does NCSA and ka9q work while multitasking
 - I would like to run it on a spare 286 with ka9q for a mail and ftp area.

as you can see - unix is possible on an XT
remember an XT is a bigger system than some pdp-11`s that can and still do run .

svend

--
===============================================================================

Applied Climate Research Unit                     PH 365 4101 (work)
University of Queensland                             289 2325 (home)

2. bin/ping source?

3. How do I un-rename, or un-delete or un-compile?

4. Announcing XFree86-3.3.1

5. slow connection between terminal(8088) and linux box via serial

6. More new linux user help required...

7. Linux on 8088

8. How to setup mouse in Debian ?

9. Good way to get TCP/IP on an 8088?

10. 8088 XT SLIP,PPP,PLIP to Linux machine possibly??

11. 8088 as dumb terminal!!!

12. 8088 terminals

13. old 8088 as terminal