OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Roy D » Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:00:00



I am not trying to put anyone down or step on any toes with this post.

It just seems to me that there is a real need for someone that really
understands programing to write  "How to do it manuals" that do not
require  years of training to understand what the manual is talking
about.

I would really like to make use of some of these great things I read
about, but I do not have the years of experience that it seems is
necessary to do it.

Why is everything to do with it so cryptic?

I read around in many of these news groups trying to learn what I can,
and the answers people get from the so called experts are so cryptic or
incomplete that the person who asks the question may be more confused
after reading the answers than they were before, (unless they happen to
be an expert themselves).

Is there a straight forward guide on how to make x-window and the
applications that are written for it work, or is it really only intended
to be for the use of the experts or people that can afford to pay the
experts to set it up?

I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
only got one response from a person that either does not really have the
knowledge to be answering the question or he did not read the whole
question, because he suggested that I install it from root with the
Linux cd, when I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
root access on the server.

Now I am not stupid or even uneducated I just do not have the experience
to do what I would like to with x-window programs.

If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
answer here).

Thank You
Roy

  nospamwebmaster.vcf
< 1K Download
 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Mladen Gavrilovi » Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:00:00


as far as I know, you need to be root to install things in linux.
that's just how it works.  if you don't have root access, get someone
who does to install the program.  if your sysadmin won't do it, the
program probably shouldn't be there anyway.  for how to do it manuals,
go to http://metalab.unc.edu.  there are many resources there, including
dozens of HOWTOs and if I remember correctly an XFree86 user's guide.
If you feel that the documentation is inadequate, you can always write
some and submit it once you solve your problem.

Regards,

Mladen


> I am not trying to put anyone down or step on any toes with this post.

> It just seems to me that there is a real need for someone that really
> understands programing to write  "How to do it manuals" that do not
> require  years of training to understand what the manual is talking
> about.

> I would really like to make use of some of these great things I read
> about, but I do not have the years of experience that it seems is
> necessary to do it.

> Why is everything to do with it so cryptic?

> I read around in many of these news groups trying to learn what I can,
> and the answers people get from the so called experts are so cryptic or
> incomplete that the person who asks the question may be more confused
> after reading the answers than they were before, (unless they happen to
> be an expert themselves).

> Is there a straight forward guide on how to make x-window and the
> applications that are written for it work, or is it really only intended
> to be for the use of the experts or people that can afford to pay the
> experts to set it up?

> I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
> only got one response from a person that either does not really have the
> knowledge to be answering the question or he did not read the whole
> question, because he suggested that I install it from root with the
> Linux cd, when I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
> root access on the server.

> Now I am not stupid or even uneducated I just do not have the experience
> to do what I would like to with x-window programs.

> If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
> learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
> yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
> answer here).

> Thank You
> Roy


 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Josh Ste » Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:00:00



>It just seems to me that there is a real need for someone that really
>understands programing to write  "How to do it manuals" that do not
>require  years of training to understand what the manual is talking
>about.

What are you trying to do?  What is the specific category of
thing that we are talking about here?

Quote:>I would really like to make use of some of these great things I read
>about, but I do not have the years of experience that it seems is
>necessary to do it.

>Why is everything to do with it so cryptic?

Really knowing Unix in the sense of being a guru takes years
of experience because there is a lot to know.  However, I would
agree that the traditions for documentation of many aspects of
Unix are poor.  Man pages, for instance, should be required to
have links to examples of typical usage for the major features
of each program.  This would save billions of dolllars in
lost productivity.

Quote:>Is there a straight forward guide on how to make x-window and the
>applications that are written for it work, or is it really only intended
>to be for the use of the experts or people that can afford to pay the
>experts to set it up?

There is an X Window User's guide published by O'Reilly that might
help.  It is a few years old so not uptodate with the latest programs
and features.  You might also want to read the man pages for
X, XFree86, and the window manager that you are running.

Quote:>I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
>only got one response from a person that either does not really have the
>knowledge to be answering the question or he did not read the whole
>question, because he suggested that I install it from root with the
>Linux cd, when I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
>root access on the server.

How to install a binary is really a distribution specific question,
or else a question about a particular source package.  However, the
general sort of answer if you do not have root is that you want
to put the binaries in your own private binary directory,
e.g. $HOME/bin where $HOME normally evaluates to your home
directory (the same as ~ ), and then add this directory to
your path.  The other things you would need to know about
is how to unpack the binary package to a regular directory
without installing it, and then you can just copy the executables
to the desired directory.  With a Debian package I would probably
make a temporary directory, cd there, and then do a
dpkg --fsys-tarfile pkg.deb | tar xf -

If you have an rpm system then you should be able to find someting
similar on the rpm man page.  

Anothere complication is that the package may have its own special
shared librarys.  In that case you will want to set the environment
variable LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the directory where you put the shared
libraries.  You can read about this on the man page for ld.so

If you have a source distribution for the package, you probably
want to do a
./configure --prefix=$HOME
make
make install

Then if you are running bash, put the lines
export PATH=$HOME/bin:$PATH
export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$HOME/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH

in your .bash_profile file.

Quote:>Now I am not stupid or even uneducated I just do not have the experience
>to do what I would like to with x-window programs.

These issues are Unix issues, and not really x-window related.

Quote:>If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
>learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
>yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
>answer here).

I think that the book _Unix For the Impatient_ is pretty good.
Also O'Reilly's _Unix CD Bookshelf_ is an excellent deal.
I'd recommend starting with one of those.

- Josh

 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Christopher B. Brow » Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>as far as I know, you need to be root to install things in linux.
>that's just how it works.  if you don't have root access, get someone
>who does to install the program.  if your sysadmin won't do it, the
>program probably shouldn't be there anyway.  for how to do it manuals,
>go to http://metalab.unc.edu.  there are many resources there, including
>dozens of HOWTOs and if I remember correctly an XFree86 user's guide.
>If you feel that the documentation is inadequate, you can always write
>some and submit it once you solve your problem.

No, no, no...

You *don't* need root access in order to install things.
That's *NOT* how it works.

UNIX is a multiuser operating system, which Linux rather strongly
resembles.

Root access is required in order to do things like hardware configuration,
or to install software in places like /usr.

On a system where you're *not* able to su to root at will, Linux behaves
more usefully as a multiuser OS, and can behave quite nicely as such.

If there's no root access, and the desired task is to install ImageMagick,
steps would look like:
- Locate sources, probably in the form of a TAR archive.  

        Get: ImageMagick-whatever.tgz

$ mkdir ~/src
$ cd ~/src
$ ftp wherever.org

Quote:> cd /pub/something/ImageMagick
> get imagemagick-2.1.tgz
> exit

Extract the archive
$ tar xfvz imagemagick-2.1.tgz
[probably puts lots of files in ImageMagick-2.1
$ cd ImageMagick-2.1
$ more INSTALL
$ more README
$ more Makefile
$ more configure

These are likely files in which information on how to build/install
ImageMagick are likely to be found.

If build using "autoconf," there will be a "configure" file, which
is likely the first thing that should be run, and which will set up
lots of stuff for the install.

Then, you need to configure any custom stuff.  Notable things that
may be special are that paths will have to be under /home/yourid/
rather than under /usr.  This may need to be passed as an argument to
"configure."  Milage will vary.

It may be necessary to edit files called "Makefile" in order to set up
the location where files will be installed.  References to /usr/bin
should probably be replaced by /home/yourid/bin, and ditto for ../lib/..,
../man/..,

The program and libraries may then be installed for use in the
user's account.

In order to *find* them, some configuration will prove necessary.  It is
probably necessary to adjust the environment variable PATH to include
/home/yourid/bin; that should be modified in the shell's config file
so that /home/yourid/bin gets found on every login; which file must be
modified depends on the favorite shell, which may be determined
by typing:
echo $SHELL

bash --> ~/.bashrc
ksh --> ~/.kshrc
zsh --> ~/.zshrc
...

If there are libraries, it may prove necessary to adjust LD_PATH as well.

But the assertion that root access is *necessarily* mandated is *not*
correct.
--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.  
-- Henry Spencer          <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>

 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Christopher B. Brow » Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:00:00



posted:

Quote:>I am not trying to put anyone down or step on any toes with this post.

>It just seems to me that there is a real need for someone that really
>understands programing to write  "How to do it manuals" that do not
>require  years of training to understand what the manual is talking
>about.

Actually, I'd suggest that what is perhaps needed instead is for someone
who *doesn't* have those "years of training" to go through the process,
strike the barriers, get a "with-years" person to answer the questions
that represented barriers, and then organize the resulting material
into documentation.

In your "ignorance," you actually have an advantage over those that are
knowledgeable; you don't know any of the little "tricks" that we pick
up over the years.

Note that this really does need to be a "team" effort; the "expert"
is needed to provide answers, but the "ignorant novice" is ALSO needed
in order to provide the "dumb questions."

Quote:>I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
>only got one response from a person that either does not really have the
>knowledge to be answering the question or he did not read the whole
>question, because he suggested that I install it from root with the
>Linux cd, when I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
>root access on the server.

>Now I am not stupid or even uneducated I just do not have the experience
>to do what I would like to with x-window programs.

For the most part, people running Linux seem to tend to *have* root
access; you're something of an exception in this.

I would suggest that you first ask your system administrator for
assistance with this; he/she should have the knowledge to do this
without your needing to worry about "what ifs" such as:
 - Depending on the distribution in use, there may be prepackaged
   options.
 - There may be peculiarities about your local system configuration
   that we can only speculate about.

If your administrator can't/won't, then you will very likely need to
obtain sources, compile it, and install in your personal account rather
than having Image Magick be available system-wide.  Which is definitely
more involved than asking the sysadmin to do it.  (Hopefully an obvious
thing: Be nice to your sysadmin; that makes it more encouraging for them
to be nice to you...)

Quote:>If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
>learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
>yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
>answer here).

To a great extent, your situation represents the scenario that used to
typically be the case ten years ago, when university students would have
accounts on a shared UNIX box (with less hardware than your PC likely
has today).

Unfortunately, it has always been somewhat fiddly, especially when,
as you *do not* control system configuration, a big part of your
interaction represents a social/political process as much as it does
a technical one.

Matt Welsh's "Running Linux," published by O'Reilly, provides rather
a lot of overview and answers to a whole lot of questions.

Unfortunately, I expect that your exploration of "what you can do"
will probably involve a fair bit of trial-and-error that, as your
environment is unique, others cannot a priori provide generalizations
for.

We don't know precisely is important for you to know, is the problem.
--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.  
-- Henry Spencer          <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>

 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Marada C. Shradraka » Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Quote:> I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
>root access on the server.

Generally, you can't install software except as root.  Instead, you can
sometimes run the executable in another way:

-Download the package
-Open it [usually tar xvzf filename or tar xvyf filename].
-Go to the resultant directory
-Follow the instructions on how to make the package, but don't run the install
routine [usually make install]
Then run the executables you've made from that directory.

This doesn't always work, as some packages need to know where to find some
files.  This may require special configuration, and may be mentioned in the
installation directions.  Usually the INSTALL file.
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
members.xoom.com/marada   Colony name not needed in address.
I bet in the great programme of life, there's a line reading:
void marada(long long food,.....

 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Rajat Dat » Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:00:00



>I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
>only got one response from a person...
>If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
>learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
>yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
>answer here).

Why not simply get one of the distributions like RedHat that includes
almost all of the major applications and see how they install things?
RedHat distributes applications packaged in RPM files and it's possible
to look at where they are installing the various files.

Personally, I've found that almost all applications nowadays can be
built from source by just untarring the source archive, then doing the
following:

../configure
make
make install    (will need to be root to do this)

The only real problem is what the requirements of the application is
but those are usually listed in the INSTALL or README file.

rajat

 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Inspector # » Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:00:00



> I am not trying to put anyone down or step on any toes with this post.

> It just seems to me that there is a real need for someone that really
> understands programing to write  "How to do it manuals" that do not
> require  years of training to understand what the manual is talking
> about.

> I would really like to make use of some of these great things I read
> about, but I do not have the years of experience that it seems is
> necessary to do it.

> Why is everything to do with it so cryptic?

> I read around in many of these news groups trying to learn what I can,
> and the answers people get from the so called experts are so cryptic or
> incomplete that the person who asks the question may be more confused
> after reading the answers than they were before, (unless they happen to
> be an expert themselves).

> Is there a straight forward guide on how to make x-window and the
> applications that are written for it work, or is it really only intended
> to be for the use of the experts or people that can afford to pay the
> experts to set it up?

> I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
> only got one response from a person that either does not really have the
> knowledge to be answering the question or he did not read the whole
> question, because he suggested that I install it from root with the
> Linux cd, when I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
> root access on the server.

> Now I am not stupid or even uneducated I just do not have the experience
> to do what I would like to with x-window programs.

> If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
> learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
> yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
> answer here).

> Thank You
> Roy

        Sooo we need good english?
 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Christopher Brow » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00




>>I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
>>only got one response from a person...
>>If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
>>learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
>>yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
>>answer here).

>Why not simply get one of the distributions like RedHat that includes
>almost all of the major applications and see how they install things?
>RedHat distributes applications packaged in RPM files and it's possible
>to look at where they are installing the various files.

This may be the (unusual) situation where I'd suggest Slackware to be
a better choice than Red Hat, as its "source tree" comes in the form
of just plain tar files, thereby obviating the need to learn how to
work with their package tools *as well as* how to use TAR files and
the likes.

--
Send messages calling for fonts not available to the
recipient(s).  This can (in the case of Zmail) totally disable
the user's machine and mail system for up to a whole day in some
circumstances.
-- from the Symbolics Guidelines for Sending Mail

 
 
 

OK OK So X-window looks like great thing until you try to use it.

Post by Guo Qui » Sun, 04 Jul 1999 04:00:00


Really sonmething for volunteer :-)

kieu


Quote:> I am not trying to put anyone down or step on any toes with this post.

> It just seems to me that there is a real need for someone that really
> understands programing to write  "How to do it manuals" that do not
> require  years of training to understand what the manual is talking
> about.

> I would really like to make use of some of these great things I read
> about, but I do not have the years of experience that it seems is
> necessary to do it.

> Why is everything to do with it so cryptic?

> I read around in many of these news groups trying to learn what I can,
> and the answers people get from the so called experts are so cryptic or
> incomplete that the person who asks the question may be more confused
> after reading the answers than they were before, (unless they happen to
> be an expert themselves).

> Is there a straight forward guide on how to make x-window and the
> applications that are written for it work, or is it really only intended
> to be for the use of the experts or people that can afford to pay the
> experts to set it up?

> I ask a few days ago about how to install Image Magick, and so far I
> only got one response from a person that either does not really have the
> knowledge to be answering the question or he did not read the whole
> question, because he suggested that I install it from root with the
> Linux cd, when I made it very clear in my question that I do not have
> root access on the server.

> Now I am not stupid or even uneducated I just do not have the experience
> to do what I would like to with x-window programs.

> If anyone can guide me toward a book or on line source for beginners to
> learn it would help me and a lot of other people (likely including
> yourselves because then you would not have nearly as many questions to
> answer here).

> Thank You
> Roy

 
 
 

1. OK, OK, Linux is great but does it...

I've been on the fence about going to Linux because, unlike some folks, it
will cost me a LOT to do so ...

My home machine has a DTC SCSI controller so I'll have to invest in a new
controller because DTC are a bunch of bastards.

My company is on Token Ring and that's not so bad because you can now get Token
Ring drivers but ... I have a Madge card and that's not supported (or is it?).

I have some "must have" MS Windows apps ...

I can probably solve the hardware problems by swapping with friends and co-workers
but what about Windoze?

2. Solaris 8 Versions

3. "nu bee:-)" ok ok ok

4. Disable use shadow file

5. Printcap OK, Postscript OK, together NOT OK - HELP!

6. I need fast modem setup

7. X windows runs OK until mouse click

8. Adaptec 2842 SCSI controller with Linux?

9. dns update from dhcp server ok for windows clients, not ok for linux (dhclient) clients

10. X windows set up 'is this OK screen' not ok

11. text mouse ok........x-window mouse dead

12. X-window ok during install, but after that not working

13. Modem Problems: dial-out is ok/dial-in is not ok (Solaris 2.6)