Very Computer

Until I can save my pennies and replace the burned-out monitor on my Linux
(RH 7.0 if that matters) box, I can only log on via telnet on my NT
workstation.  That's fine for email and text-based activities, but I can't
play with Xfree86 through telnet.  Is there a thin client for NT that I can
use to log on to an X server?

--
Peter B. Steiger
Cheyenne, WY

If you reply by email, send it to pbs at com dot
canada (or vice-versa).  All adverti*ts will be
returned to your postmaster, eh!

Quote:>Until I can save my pennies and replace the burned-out monitor on my Linux
>(RH 7.0 if that matters) box, I can only log on via telnet on my NT
>workstation.  That's fine for email and text-based activities, but I can't
>play with Xfree86 through telnet.  Is there a thin client for NT that I can
>use to log on to an X server?

Sounds like you're looking for an X server for MS-Win.  My web site lists
a couple of dozen of these.

Ken Lee, http://www.rahul.net/kenton/

on 28 Jun 2002, Ken Lee sez:

Quote:> Sounds like you're looking for an X server for MS-Win.  My web site
> lists a couple of dozen of these.

Wow, that was a fast reply!  Och, no, what I was thinking was that the X
server running on Linux could act as host for the X client running in
Winduhs.  I don't have a choice about the NT box - that belongs to my
company and I'm guessing they would not like if I replaced NT (and Outlook
and Office 2000 etc. etc. etc.) with my favorite Linux replacements, but I
was hoping I could at least use the NT as a big, dumb terminal to access
the Linux server and run Linux-hosted applications.

--
Peter B. Steiger
Cheyenne, WY

If you reply by email, send it to pbs at com dot
canada (or vice-versa).  All adverti*ts will be
returned to your postmaster, eh!

Quote:>on 28 Jun 2002, Ken Lee sez:
>> Sounds like you're looking for an X server for MS-Win.  My web site
>> lists a couple of dozen of these.

>Wow, that was a fast reply!  Och, no, what I was thinking was that the X
>server running on Linux could act as host for the X client running in
>Winduhs.  I don't have a choice about the NT box - that belongs to my
>company and I'm guessing they would not like if I replaced NT (and Outlook
>and Office 2000 etc. etc. etc.) with my favorite Linux replacements, but I
>was hoping I could at least use the NT as a big, dumb terminal to access
>the Linux server and run Linux-hosted applications.

Well, you've got confused by terminology.

An X 'server' provides display and input services to it's clients.
X clients are programs that ask X server(s) to display or to retrieve input
data.

This means that

  xclock, which is an application that want's to display something,
  is an X client

  xfree86, which manages the video, keyboard, and mouse to permit other
  programs to display or take input, is an X server

If you want an X client on MSWindows, you're asking for an application program
that will use the X protocol to display on some X server enabled screen. That
is, the app runs on MSWindows and displays (for instance) on Linux.

If you want an X server on MSWindows, you're asking for a program that will
permit MSWindows to display the X requests that are generated by some X client
application somewhere. That is, the app runs (say) on Linux, and displays on
MSWindows.

Ken's site has a great number of X server's for MSWindows. However, there are
practically no X client apps for MSWindows.

If you want Linux to display on MSWindows, you want an MSWindows X server
If you want MSWindows to display on Linux, you probably won't find any X enabled
apps, and will have to install the VNC 'virtual display' on MSWindows (VNC
intercepts MSWindows apps windowing calls, and translates them into a networked
protocol that can be displayed on Linux).

Lew Pitcher
IT Consultant, Development Services
Toronto Dominion Bank Financial Group

(Opinions expressed are my own, not my employers')

: on 28 Jun 2002, Ken Lee sez:
:> Sounds like you're looking for an X server for MS-Win.  My web site
:> lists a couple of dozen of these.

: Wow, that was a fast reply!  Och, no, what I was thinking was that the X
: server running on Linux could act as host for the X client running in
: Winduhs.  I don't have a choice about the NT box - that belongs to my

Yes, it can. If you'll be able to find X client running on Windows
I know only one useful one - extensions for Citrix Metaframe
named Unix integration service. It allows you to see whole Windows
session in the window on your X display without single bit of
special software installed on your Linux machine. But I prefer
rdesktop for this purpose, becouse even if it needs to be installed
on Linux, it saves your from purcashing expensive Citrix Metaframe
to install on your Windows Advanced Server.

: company and I'm guessing they would not like if I replaced NT (and Outlook
: and Office 2000 etc. etc. etc.) with my favorite Linux replacements, but I
: was hoping I could at least use the NT as a big, dumb terminal to access
: the Linux server and run Linux-hosted applications.

X server is some kind of driver for display, keyboard and mouse,
which allows application programs, called X clients, to use those
devices to communicate with user.

So, if you install X server on Windows, your Linux programs would
be able to communicate with you via display and keyboard of your
windows workstation.

Note that server and client are things which should be viewed
from the point of program, becouse they are two interconnecting
programs, not from the point of user.

So, from the point of view of program, piece of software, which
allows it to connect to your display via network and draw windows there,
is obvoisly an X server, not X client.

Things are different in Win2K terminal server, and there is reason
for this. In Windows Terminal server it is client software
which connects to the server and it lets it to access programs,
installed on server machine.

In Unix world there are numerous ways to start programs on remote
machines - rsh, telnet, ssh, so there was (back than in 1985) no need to
invent new
one  to let you START graphical program.

There was need to invent way for started program to display information
to remote user and get input from him. It is why X was invented.

--
No, that's wrong too.  Now there's a race condition between the rm and
the mv.  Hmm, I need more coffee.
        -- Guy Maor on Debian Bug#25228

on 28 Jun 2002, Lew Pitcher sez:

Quote:> Well, you've got confused by terminology.

> An X 'server' provides display and input services to it's clients.
> X clients are programs that ask X server(s) to display or to retrieve
> input data.

In that case, I am definitely a few thought processes short of a clue.  I
remember when I played with X before the monitor blew up (not related; it
was just old hardware) that XFree86 itself had to be running before the
desktop applications - KDE, Gnome, whatever - could run.  So I assumed
XFree86 was the server which would respond to requests from the window
manager / GUI environment ("client").  I thought I had also read that the
same XFree86 server could respond to display requests from remote
terminals, routing the desired output to the remote desktop sort of like a
GUI version of telnet (or Citrix or PC-Anywhere or M$ Terminal Services if
you prefer).

Quote:> Lew Pitcher
> IT Consultant, Development Services
> Toronto Dominion Bank Financial Group

Cool... so does the bank actually run on Linux, or is Linux just a sideline
for you while you (like most everybody else) are enslaved by the Evil
Empire at work?

--
Peter B. Steiger
Cheyenne, WY

If you reply by email, send it to pbs at com dot
canada (or vice-versa).  All adverti*ts will be
returned to your postmaster, eh!

But you will find VNC of much more use.  The console to my Linux box
at work doesn't have a running monitor.  One day it dropped off the net.
When I went into the server room to restart it,  I flipped on the monitor
only to see a solid white screen.  Wondering if this was some Linux
version of a BSOD,  I poked around and discovered that someone had
disconnected the console,  taken the box of the net and was in the
process of scavenging it for spare parts.  Cause,  as we all know,
an M$ box is worthless without a monitor.  Anyways,  the monitor
now sports a large,  paper "Don't Touch" sign.

Anyways,  I run a slew of VNC servers on the box.  Two are XDMcp'd
into Linux,  the others (of various screen sizes) are XDMcp'd into
an HP-UX box which is my primary workstation.  I'm using one of those
sessions now as I telecommute from home.  Over cable modem and VPN it
works almost as fast as being there.  At work,  where my desktop PC
and Linux server are on a 100 Mbit Lan,  It's almost indistinguishable
from using it directly on the console.

For more information,  see:

   http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc

--
Dan Mercer

Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.

Quote:> Until I can save my pennies and replace the burned-out monitor on my Linux
> (RH 7.0 if that matters) box, I can only log on via telnet on my NT
> workstation.  That's fine for email and text-based activities, but I can't
> play with Xfree86 through telnet.  Is there a thin client for NT that I
can
> use to log on to an X server?

> --
> Peter B. Steiger
> Cheyenne, WY

> If you reply by email, send it to pbs at com dot
> canada (or vice-versa).  All adverti*ts will be
> returned to your postmaster, eh!

download cygwin - it's free, and a bit slow, but it works.

Quote:> Yes, it can. If you'll be able to find X client running on Windows
> I know only one useful one - extensions for Citrix Metaframe
> named Unix integration service.

Is this still available?  10 years ago, there were several such products, but
I'm not familiar with any current ones.

Ken Lee, http://www.rahul.net/kenton/

: I assumed XFree86 was the server which would respond to requests from
: the window manager / GUI environment ("client"):

Correct.

: I thought I had also read that the same XFree86 server could respond
: to display requests from remote terminals,

Incorrect.  XFree86 can respond to display requests from remote
*applications*.  Applications don't typically run on a "terminal"
(though they can, eg, ncd's bundled window manager on their X terminals).

  ( an oversimplification: things like x2x show that Xfree86 can also
    respond to remote requests to input keystrokes and mouse motions,
    and fetch the screen pixels...  but it's only done in limited
    circumstances, for various reasons both technical and social )

: routing the desired output to the remote desktop

What you probably want is VNC.

    http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/

The Xvnc process does exactly what you describe; it responds to display
requests from X apps (via the X protocol), and reroutes the actual
display to any physical device on the network (via the RFB (remote frame
buffer) protocol) (well, any physical device which has the VNC client
implemented for it).  This includes being able to display on Macs,
WinDoze, linux, solaris, and palmOS gadgets, to name just a few.

On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 02:09:45 GMT, Wayne Throop staggered into the Black
Sun and said:
[ summary:  the OP wants an X server running on Win32, or an equivalent
way to run an app on machine Y and have that app display on machine Z,
which will be running Win32. ]

Quote:> What you probably want is VNC.

>     http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/

Erm.  http://www.tightvnc.org/ for a newer and possibly better version.
VNC rocks, no doubt, but X is better if you can use it.  VNC is rather
inefficient in many cases, even with tight encoding, but it's totally
cross-platform which is always an advantage.

Quote:> The Xvnc process does exactly what you describe; it responds to
> display requests from X apps (via the X protocol), and reroutes the
> actual display to any physical device on the network (via the RFB
> (remote frame buffer) protocol) (well, any physical device which has
> the VNC client implemented for it).  This includes being able to
> display on Macs, WinDoze, linux, solaris, and palmOS gadgets, to name
> just a few.

Main problem ("feature") with vncserver on Unix is that it creates a new
X session, instead of exporting the current X display.  If you want your
Unix VNC server to export the current X display, you want x0rfbserver
(if you can get it to compile, I couldn't) or krfb (requires KDE
libraries, but it does work, http://www.tjansen.de/krfb/ ).  krfb is
quite useful IMHO.

--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin /
http://www.brainbench.com     /  "He is a rhythmic movement of the
-----------------------------/    penguins, is Tux." --MegaHAL

:> Yes, it can. If you'll be able to find X client running on Windows
:> I know only one useful one - extensions for Citrix Metaframe
:> named Unix integration service.

: Is this still available?  10 years ago, there were several such products, but
: I'm not familiar with any current ones.

Look at www.citrix.com

But I'm afraid that citrix would go bankrupt soon, becouse
no Windows 2K AS has builtin terminal server functionality
and there is opensource client for it on www.rdesktop.org
: Ken Lee, http://www.rahul.net/kenton/

--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for that
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge.
                -- Erwin Knoll

: krfb (requires KDE
: libraries, but it does work, http://www.tjansen.de/krfb/ ).  
: krfb is quite useful IMHO.

Can it be launched in a vanilla X environment?
Has anybody compiled solaris versions ? (one of the problems
of x0rfbserver is that nobody I know of has been able to
make reasonable solaris executables (but I am only an egg)).

You might want to set up a vncserver on your linux box.
search on google for vnc+homepage+download

Which isn't to say there couldn't be.  Cygwin distributes a bunch of the
standard clients like xterm,  which I use instead of a dos window
or the cygwin window.  There's also the world's best GUI editor - nedit.
I ported knews without any problems - I now use that for a Windows
newsreader - at least I know it won't accidentally infect me.

--
Dan Mercer

Quote:

> If you want Linux to display on MSWindows, you want an MSWindows X server
> If you want MSWindows to display on Linux, you probably won't find any X enabled
> apps, and will have to install the VNC 'virtual display' on MSWindows (VNC
> intercepts MSWindows apps windowing calls, and translates them into a networked
> protocol that can be displayed on Linux).

> Lew Pitcher
> IT Consultant, Development Services
> Toronto Dominion Bank Financial Group

> (Opinions expressed are my own, not my employers')

Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.