Very Computer

by **Jim Gillilan** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 00:50:01

I've got an old machine here that I want to upgrade for use with Linux.
I'm trying to select a suitable motherboard for it. I'm planning to use
an Athlon board, mostly to keep costs down. If I go with P4, not only
will I have to pay the premium price of the Intel, but I'll also have to
replace the power supply. So the Athlon is preferable.

But I've read some recent discussion that suggests that Athlon may not
be a good choice for Linux at present. Anyone want to shed some light
on this? Should I stay away from the Athlon for Linux? (Redhat Linux
8)

Then there's the question of motherboard. Here are the constraints:

1) microATX Athlon board
2) DDR RAM (supporting at least 1GB)
3) video, audio, LAN on board (or as many as possible anyway)
4) relatively inexpensive

I've found only a few boards that seem to meet most of my criteria, and
in doing google searches I've found that none of them have particularly
good reputations - especially for Linux. Anyone have any success
stories?

Thanks in advance for any help or pointers.

by **Dances With Crow** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:25:36

On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 15:50:01 GMT, Jim Gilliland staggered into the Black
Sun and said:

Quote:> I'm trying to select a suitable motherboard for it. I'm planning to
> use an Athlon board, mostly to keep costs down. But I've read some
> recent discussion that suggests that Athlon may not be a good choice
> for Linux at present.

Links/sources for this "recent discussion"? Details? Athlon processors
run Linux just fine, have for years, will continue to do so.

Quote:> Then there's the question of motherboard. Here are the constraints:

> 1) microATX Athlon board
> 2) DDR RAM (supporting at least 1GB)
> 3) video, audio, LAN on board (or as many as possible anyway)
> 4) relatively inexpensive

> I've found only a few boards that seem to meet most of my criteria,
> and in doing google searches I've found that none of them have
> particularly good reputations

Points 3 and 4 pretty much kill your chances of finding a "good board".
Boards with video/sound/LAN soldered into the board are typically built
for "value" (cheapness), not quality, and onboard sound chips have a
spotty record of working with Linux. Onboard video is typically made by
SiS--bad news for Linux, 2D might work, 3D won't. LAN has a high chance
of working, but it'll be a cheap Realtek8139C or something. When it
comes to computer hardware, You Get What You Pay For.

MicroATX form factor makes it even more difficult. Athlons consume lots
of power, and there's not enough space in a MicroATX case for a big
power supply.

Lose the "integrated everything" requirement and you'll be much happier
in the long run. For an x86 system, the motherboard is the *LAST* place
you want to cut corners on. You can buy good, supported add-on cards on
the cheap. nVidia TNT2 or Geforce2 MX? $25. Ensoniq AudioPCI? $25.
Old DEC Tulip 10/100 NIC or Realtek8139 10/100? $10. Knowing your
hardware will be autodetected by recent distros? $LOTS, depending on
how much you value your time.

--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin /
http://www.brainbench.com / "He is a rhythmic movement of the
-----------------------------/ penguins, is Tux." --MegaHAL

by **Allen Cride** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:03:45

> I've got an old machine here that I want to upgrade for use with Linux.
> I'm trying to select a suitable motherboard for it. I'm planning to use
> an Athlon board, mostly to keep costs down. If I go with P4, not only
> will I have to pay the premium price of the Intel, but I'll also have to
> replace the power supply. So the Athlon is preferable.

> But I've read some recent discussion that suggests that Athlon may not
> be a good choice for Linux at present. Anyone want to shed some light
> on this? Should I stay away from the Athlon for Linux? (Redhat Linux
> 8)

> Then there's the question of motherboard. Here are the constraints:

> 1) microATX Athlon board
> 2) DDR RAM (supporting at least 1GB)
> 3) video, audio, LAN on board (or as many as possible anyway)
> 4) relatively inexpensive

> I've found only a few boards that seem to meet most of my criteria, and
> in doing google searches I've found that none of them have particularly
> good reputations - especially for Linux. Anyone have any success
> stories?

Nforce boards have great performance. Nforce2 boards in a micro-atx form haven't
been released. I've been using an Asus A7n266-vm since last summer and it works
well. But you must use Nvidia's binary-only drivers.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> Thanks in advance for any help or pointers.

by **Jim Gillilan** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:44:59

> On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 15:50:01 GMT, Jim Gilliland staggered into the Black
> Sun and said:
> > I'm trying to select a suitable motherboard for it. I'm planning to
> > use an Athlon board, mostly to keep costs down. But I've read some
> > recent discussion that suggests that Athlon may not be a good choice
> > for Linux at present.

> Links/sources for this "recent discussion"? Details? Athlon processors
> run Linux just fine, have for years, will continue to do so.

Just a variety of postings that I ran into while doing google searches
for Linux on various specific motherboards. Several people suggested
that AMD and Linux weren't getting along as well as they used to. But
it's just hearsay.

Quote:> > Then there's the question of motherboard. Here are the constraints:

> > 1) microATX Athlon board
> > 2) DDR RAM (supporting at least 1GB)
> > 3) video, audio, LAN on board (or as many as possible anyway)
> > 4) relatively inexpensive

> > I've found only a few boards that seem to meet most of my criteria,
> > and in doing google searches I've found that none of them have
> > particularly good reputations

> Points 3 and 4 pretty much kill your chances of finding a "good board".
> Boards with video/sound/LAN soldered into the board are typically built
> for "value" (cheapness), not quality, and onboard sound chips have a
> spotty record of working with Linux. Onboard video is typically made by
> SiS--bad news for Linux, 2D might work, 3D won't. LAN has a high chance
> of working, but it'll be a cheap Realtek8139C or something. When it
> comes to computer hardware, You Get What You Pay For.

That's fine - the whole idea is to keep it inexpensive. I'm not looking
for anything fancy, just something that supports and works with Linux.

Quote:> MicroATX form factor makes it even more difficult. Athlons consume lots
> of power, and there's not enough space in a MicroATX case for a big
> power supply.

Nope, this is a fairly tiny power supply, in fact the smallest I've ever
seen - 150 watts. (I'm glad you made the power comment because I didn't
realize until now just how small this supply was - I thought it was
about 250W until I checked a moment ago).

If I have to buy a new one, I'll probably just leave this system alone
and build a new one in a full size ATX box. At the moment, this
microATX box is running RH8 on a Celeron 500 and working fine. But it
won't support enough RAM to run the Websphere stuff that I plan to put
on it.

Quote:> Lose the "integrated everything" requirement and you'll be much happier
> in the long run. For an x86 system, the motherboard is the *LAST* place
> you want to cut corners on. You can buy good, supported add-on cards on
> the cheap. nVidia TNT2 or Geforce2 MX? $25. Ensoniq AudioPCI? $25.
> Old DEC Tulip 10/100 NIC or Realtek8139 10/100? $10. Knowing your
> hardware will be autodetected by recent distros? $LOTS, depending on
> how much you value your time.

Probably true, but if I'm going to do that, I'll need to build a new
system rather than trying to upgrade this one. And that'll at least
double the cost, maybe more.

Your comment about SiS video chips makes me wonder: Is there someplace
I can turn to find a reasonably comprehensive list of what's well
supported under Linux?

Thanks a lot for the help.

by **Scott Way** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:54:28

Last year, I built a system using a PC Chips (www.pcchips.com.tw) PC 266
m/board. It has onboard sound/100Mbps NIC/video with an AGP slot if you
want better video. It takes a K7 AMD chip (XP/Athlon/Duron). Works fine
for me, runs 24x7.

--
Scott

>> On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 15:50:01 GMT, Jim Gilliland staggered into the Black
>> Sun and said:
>> > I'm trying to select a suitable motherboard for it. I'm planning to
>> > use an Athlon board, mostly to keep costs down. But I've read some
>> > recent discussion that suggests that Athlon may not be a good choice
>> > for Linux at present.

>> Links/sources for this "recent discussion"? Details? Athlon processors
>> run Linux just fine, have for years, will continue to do so.

> Just a variety of postings that I ran into while doing google searches
> for Linux on various specific motherboards. Several people suggested
> that AMD and Linux weren't getting along as well as they used to. But
> it's just hearsay.

>> > Then there's the question of motherboard. Here are the constraints:

>> > 1) microATX Athlon board
>> > 2) DDR RAM (supporting at least 1GB)
>> > 3) video, audio, LAN on board (or as many as possible anyway)
>> > 4) relatively inexpensive

>> > I've found only a few boards that seem to meet most of my criteria,
>> > and in doing google searches I've found that none of them have
>> > particularly good reputations

>> Points 3 and 4 pretty much kill your chances of finding a "good board".
>> Boards with video/sound/LAN soldered into the board are typically built
>> for "value" (cheapness), not quality, and onboard sound chips have a
>> spotty record of working with Linux. Onboard video is typically made by
>> SiS--bad news for Linux, 2D might work, 3D won't. LAN has a high chance
>> of working, but it'll be a cheap Realtek8139C or something. When it
>> comes to computer hardware, You Get What You Pay For.

> That's fine - the whole idea is to keep it inexpensive. I'm not looking
> for anything fancy, just something that supports and works with Linux.

>> MicroATX form factor makes it even more difficult. Athlons consume lots
>> of power, and there's not enough space in a MicroATX case for a big
>> power supply.

> Nope, this is a fairly tiny power supply, in fact the smallest I've ever
> seen - 150 watts. (I'm glad you made the power comment because I didn't
> realize until now just how small this supply was - I thought it was
> about 250W until I checked a moment ago).

> If I have to buy a new one, I'll probably just leave this system alone
> and build a new one in a full size ATX box. At the moment, this
> microATX box is running RH8 on a Celeron 500 and working fine. But it
> won't support enough RAM to run the Websphere stuff that I plan to put
> on it.

>> Lose the "integrated everything" requirement and you'll be much happier
>> in the long run. For an x86 system, the motherboard is the *LAST* place
>> you want to cut corners on. You can buy good, supported add-on cards on
>> the cheap. nVidia TNT2 or Geforce2 MX? $25. Ensoniq AudioPCI? $25.
>> Old DEC Tulip 10/100 NIC or Realtek8139 10/100? $10. Knowing your
>> hardware will be autodetected by recent distros? $LOTS, depending on
>> how much you value your time.

> Probably true, but if I'm going to do that, I'll need to build a new
> system rather than trying to upgrade this one. And that'll at least
> double the cost, maybe more.

> Your comment about SiS video chips makes me wonder: Is there someplace
> I can turn to find a reasonably comprehensive list of what's well
> supported under Linux?

> Thanks a lot for the help.

by **Floyd Davidso** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:23:19

>> MicroATX form factor makes it even more difficult. Athlons consume lots
>> of power, and there's not enough space in a MicroATX case for a big
>> power supply.

>Nope, this is a fairly tiny power supply, in fact the smallest I've ever
>seen - 150 watts. (I'm glad you made the power comment because I didn't
>realize until now just how small this supply was - I thought it was
>about 250W until I checked a moment ago).

>If I have to buy a new one, I'll probably just leave this system alone
>and build a new one in a full size ATX box. At the moment, this
>microATX box is running RH8 on a Celeron 500 and working fine. But it
>won't support enough RAM to run the Websphere stuff that I plan to put
>on it.

I would recommend leaving that one be and building a new box, in
a larger case. Use the celeron for a firewall, a router, a
spare machine to play with, whatever...

Neither you power supply nor the case itself are up to the task,
so you are going to lose more value than what you gain if you
upgrade it. You'll end up with something not really suitable.
But if you keep that one as is and build a while new box, well
there you are, with two useful boxes instead of one that isn't.

Quote:>> Lose the "integrated everything" requirement and you'll be much happier
>> in the long run. For an x86 system, the motherboard is the *LAST* place
>> you want to cut corners on. You can buy good, supported add-on cards on
>> the cheap. nVidia TNT2 or Geforce2 MX? $25. Ensoniq AudioPCI? $25.
>> Old DEC Tulip 10/100 NIC or Realtek8139 10/100? $10. Knowing your
>> hardware will be autodetected by recent distros? $LOTS, depending on
>> how much you value your time.

>Probably true, but if I'm going to do that, I'll need to build a new
>system rather than trying to upgrade this one. And that'll at least
>double the cost, maybe more.

Worth every penny of it too! That paragraph is some *excellent*
advice. The only on-board devices that I'd recommend are
ethernet and SCSI.

There is *no* way I'd use a builtin video or sound system (with
the exception of builtin video on a system that is used as a
router/firewall and normally does not even have a monitor
attached).

Quote:>Your comment about SiS video chips makes me wonder: Is there someplace
>I can turn to find a reasonably comprehensive list of what's well
>supported under Linux?

Anything by Matrox, and any of the NVidia GeForce cards. You
can't go wrong, assuming you aren't trying to approach the
bleeding edge and buy the latest thing available.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.ptialaska.net/~floyd>

by **Dances With Crow** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:08:31

On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 16:54:28 +0000, Scott Waye staggered into the Black
Sun and said:

Scott: Don't top-post, and *trim* your posts. Message rearranged to
comply with Usenet conventions.

>>> On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 15:50:01 GMT, Jim Gilliland staggered into the
>>> Black Sun and said:
>>> > I'm trying to select a suitable motherboard for it. I'm planning
>>> > to use an Athlon board, mostly to keep costs down. But I've read

>>> > Then there's the question of motherboard. Here are the
>>> > constraints:

>>> > 1) microATX Athlon board
>>> > 2) DDR RAM (supporting at least 1GB)
>>> > 3) video, audio, LAN on board (or as many as possible anyway)
>>> > 4) relatively inexpensive

>>> Points 3 and 4 pretty much kill your chances of finding a "good
>>> board". Boards with video/sound/LAN soldered into the board are
>>> typically built for "value" (cheapness), not quality, and onboard
>>> sound chips have a spotty record of working with Linux.

>> That's fine - the whole idea is to keep it inexpensive. I'm not
>> looking for anything fancy, just something that supports and works
>> with Linux.

>>> Lose the "integrated everything" requirement and you'll be much
>>> happier in the long run. For an x86 system, the motherboard is the
>>> *LAST* place you want to cut corners on. You can buy good,

>> Probably true, but if I'm going to do that, I'll need to build a new
>> system rather than trying to upgrade this one. And that'll at least
>> double the cost, maybe more.

?? Er... for an x86, replacing a motherboard *is* roughly equivalent to
"building a new system". You said you need to buy a new
motherboard+processor and new RAM, so what's left? Case, monitor, hard
disks, video card, NIC, sound card. I assume you're transferring a
previously existing monitor, case, and disks. The case is the only
real sticking point; micro-ATX cases and the boards that fit in them are
rarer than ATX cases, and they're not typically aimed at the "power
user" market.

Quote:>> Your comment about SiS video chips makes me wonder: Is there
>> someplace I can turn to find a reasonably comprehensive list of
>> what's well supported under Linux?

Narrow your hardware choices down to 3 or 4 makes and models, then
Google for "$MAKE $MODEL Linux". Hardware changes so fast and there's
so much of it that there's no comprehensive site that's really up to
date. lhd.datapower.com was trying to keep up, I don't know if they're
still going or not.

Quote:> Last year, I built a system using a PC Chips (www.pcchips.com.tw) PC
> 266 m/board. It has onboard sound/100Mbps NIC/video with an AGP slot
> if you want better video. It takes a K7 AMD chip (XP/Athlon/Duron).
> Works fine for me, runs 24x7.

Wow. PCChips make the cheapest, shoddiest x86 *available (now that
Packard Bell is out of business.) You must've gotten lucky. This isn't
common, don't rely on it.

--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin /
http://www.veryComputer.com/ / "He is a rhythmic movement of the
-----------------------------/ penguins, is Tux." --MegaHAL

by **Jim Gillilan** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:48:16

> I would recommend leaving that one be and building a new box, in
> a larger case.

> >> Lose the "integrated everything" requirement and you'll be much happier
> >> in the long run.

> >Probably true, but if I'm going to do that, I'll need to build a new
> >system rather than trying to upgrade this one. And that'll at least
> >double the cost, maybe more.

> Worth every penny of it too! That paragraph is some *excellent*
> advice. The only on-board devices that I'd recommend are
> ethernet and SCSI.

> There is *no* way I'd use a builtin video or sound system....

Well, if I'm going to build one from scratch, it'll probably be a
Pentium system rather than Athlon. And it appears that Intel chipsets,
including video and LAN, have pretty good Linux support. So a board
like http://www.aopen.com/products/mb/AX4GE-N.htm would probably work
fine, no?

Even at that, it'll cost me almost $500 to build this thing, and frankly
that does turn out to be about double what I'd planned to put into it.
But I might still go for it.

by **Jim Gillilan** » Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:53:43

> ?? Er... for an x86, replacing a motherboard *is* roughly equivalent to
> "building a new system". You said you need to buy a new
> motherboard+processor and new RAM, so what's left? Case, monitor, hard
> disks, video card, NIC, sound card. I assume you're transferring a
> previously existing monitor, case, and disks. The case is the only
> real sticking point; micro-ATX cases and the boards that fit in them are
> rarer than ATX cases, and they're not typically aimed at the "power
> user" market.

The bottom line on the Athlon upgrade that I was planning came to about
$250, while the P4 ATX combination will come to about $500. But I'll
get more for my money - faster CPU, new case and power supply. Probably
worth it, but I'm trying to keep this as cheap as possible. Sure, I'll
wind up with two PCs rather than one, but I don't really need the extra
machine.

Quote:> Narrow your hardware choices down to 3 or 4 makes and models, then
> Google for "$MAKE $MODEL Linux". Hardware changes so fast and there's
> so much of it that there's no comprehensive site that's really up to
> date. lhd.datapower.com was trying to keep up, I don't know if they're
> still going or not.

Yeah, I've done a bunch of those searches. Most of the newer boards
come up with zero hits. Even if I drop the "Linux" from the search
string, I don't find too much. But it's definitely a workable approach
to doing research on this sort of thing.

Thanks. Feel free to comment on the motherboard that I mentioned in my
post from an hour or so ago if you have the inclination.

Very Computer

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?

Help selecting motherboard for Linux?