Very Computer

I have only used one of these briefly at a show, but I have had a Acorn
StrongARM based machine running RiscOS for some years and ran Linux on it
for some months before getting my Alpha.

The one I tried at the show was really neat.  I am sorely tempted to get one
as a second machine (not sure what for yet).  I also think that it would
make an A1 laptop due to the processor's very low power consumption (not
sure if Corel have any plans in this area).

Until recently there was no official distribution for ARM processors, so
upgrading would have been a bit of a problem.  I understand that RedHat are
going to make their latest release available for the netwinder.  I have no
idea where you would plug in a CD-ROM drive, so you may have to install
software over a network.

Obviously, very few applications are available for the ARM port.  This will
not be a problem for anything which comes as part of RedHat, and I believe
Corel are going to port Wordperfect but other commercial software may be a
bit limited.  Obviously, in most cases you can just compile the source.

The StrongARM is a powerfull processor and its integer performance is
certainly as good as Pentiums of a similar clock rate.  It has a smaller
cache and most importantly NO FPU.  Do not get a netwinder if you want to do
any intensive floating point work (ghostscript crawls and so will apps like
ray tracing).

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Richard Simpson
Farnborough, Hants, Uk                 Fax: 01252 392976

Quote:> The one I tried at the show was really neat.  I am sorely tempted to get one
> as a second machine (not sure what for yet).  I also think that it would
> make an A1 laptop due to the processor's very low power consumption (not
> sure if Corel have any plans in this area).

Quote:> Until recently there was no official distribution for ARM processors, so
> upgrading would have been a bit of a problem.  I understand that RedHat are
> going to make their latest release available for the netwinder.  I have no
> idea where you would plug in a CD-ROM drive, so you may have to install
> software over a network.

Quote:> Obviously, very few applications are available for the ARM port.  This will
> not be a problem for anything which comes as part of RedHat, and I believe
> Corel are going to port Wordperfect but other commercial software may be a
> bit limited.  Obviously, in most cases you can just compile the source.

Quote:

> Corel has assigned 10 programmers to work on the WINE project, full time.

It'll be interesting to see how Corel's apps come out via WINElib.  If
they're successful, that could open up the door to other Windows software
houses porting their wares relatively easily, which could be VERY
interesting....

--
Rod Smith

http://www.users.fast.net/~rodsmith
NOTE: Remove the digit and following word from my address to mail me

Quote:>ditto - had the chief corelcomputer engineer demo one at our LUG meeting -
>i was very impressed.

-Jason

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Frank Sweetser rasmusin at wpi.edu fsweetser at blee.net  | PGP key available
paramount.ind.wpi.edu RedHat 5.2 kernel 2.1.126p2ac2 i586 | at public servers
We use Linux for all our mission-critical applications. Having the source code
means that we are not held hostage by anyone's support department.
(Russell Nelson, President of Crynwr Software)

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Frank Sweetser rasmusin at wpi.edu fsweetser at blee.net  | PGP key available
paramount.ind.wpi.edu RedHat 5.2 kernel 2.1.126p2ac2 i586 | at public servers
Why use Windows, since there is a door?

http://infopad.EECS.Berkeley.EDU/CIC/summary/local/

As you will see no FPU and the ARM SA-110 is not superscalar like all of
the powerful processors of today.  I mean it only has one instruction
engine so it can only process one instruction at a time.  This is just
like the 68030, i386, and microSPARCs.  Also the Netwinder has no L2 cache.
So I would say that the Netwinder with its 275MHz SA-110 might be fast but
it is in no way comparable to an equal MHz Pentium2.

Even though the SA-110 is .35u it still only has a die size of 50mm^2
vs. a 333MHz+ Pentium 2 with its 131mm^2 die.  This has to be one
inexpensive chip.

On to the next question, is the Netwinder a good deal?  Granted the
http://www.corelcomputer.com/  page doesn't have a price for the
Netwinder LC yet, if you look at the development or web server version
you will see that a 32M RAM & 2.1G HD Netwinder goes for $959 and the
64M RAM & 4.0G HD version goes for $1249.  I feel these prices are
rather expensive considering that a 450MHz P2, Seattle motherboard,
128M RAM, 6.4G HD, Matrox G200, case, power supply, mouse, ... is
selling for around $1300 at some shops around here in Silicon Valley.

Even if Netwinder cut their prices in half they would be in the Celeron
based low cost machine league.  Still IMO too expensive.  What they need
is a $300 price tag to make it in the Network Computer or Set Top box
market.

What exactly is Netwinders target market?  I don't know.
As a developer I considered Netwinder as a target platform but not at
its current price.  I love the concept and I applaud them but unless
they can do some serious cost reducing I don't think it will sell.

erik olson

Quote:>Even if Netwinder cut their prices in half they would be in the Celeron
>based low cost machine league.  Still IMO too expensive.  What they need
>is a $300 price tag to make it in the Network Computer or Set Top box
>market.

Quote:>What exactly is Netwinders target market?  I don't know.
>As a developer I considered Netwinder as a target platform but not at
>its current price.  I love the concept and I applaud them but unless
>they can do some serious cost reducing I don't think it will sell.

In small quantities, they probably *do* cost nearer to $600 than to $300 to
make.

They can't get the price down to the $200 needed to sell 'em at $300 until
they sell a bunch of 'em, and can thereby start getting advantage from
economies of scale.

And they can't sell 'em in quantity until the price comes down.

The only way that they can "bootstrap" the sales process is if they can get
some customers committed that are willing to initially pay $800 to get
projects going to do PC replacements.

(Here's a scenario: Corel works with SAP AG to get an ARM port of SAPGUI,
and pushes this as a "manageable platform" for Canadian Federal deployments
of R/3, when combined with Corel Office...  If they can sell 'em for $1K a
pop Canadian, use this to build up a set of support staff to help support
further deployments...  Could be useful...)

--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.  
-- Henry Spencer          <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>

(major snipping here)

Quote:>Even if Netwinder cut their prices in half they would be in the Celeron
>based low cost machine league.  Still IMO too expensive.  What they need
>is a $300 price tag to make it in the Network Computer or Set Top box
>market.

I don't compare these systems to PCs I could throw together or buy at a
department store.  You have to take into account the integration that has
been performed, warranty, support, the included OS and/or applications
software, and the physical/mechanical/electrical robustness -- a very
important issue in our situation.

I will be looking very closely at the Netwinder.

-Lee Allen

before you pass judgement, wait until you see the software packages that
are going to be included with the Netwinder in December... yes, of course
there's Linux... but i'd bet there will be value-added software...

besides, if you're going to compare the 'winder with a Nintendo, it
already beats the Nintendo hands down, don't you think?

the only thing is, you're still going to have to add a monitor, unless of
course, you run the thing as a headless server, then network your existing
boxes into it... which will work very well...

On 12 Nov 1998 05:03:37 GMT, Christopher B. Browne

Quote:> before you pass judgement, wait until you see the software packages that
> are going to be included with the Netwinder in December... yes, of course
> there's Linux... but i'd bet there will be value-added software...

If all I want to do is email, read news, and surf, then they have to get
into the WebTV price range.

If they want to be an X term, then maybe they are right on target.

If they want to compete with the cheap PC's then they have to equal their
price.

If they want to be a set-top box then they need an MPEG decoder and a demod /
demux'er, and they need to get the cost down, way down.

Quote:> besides, if you're going to compare the 'winder with a Nintendo, it
> already beats the Nintendo hands down, don't you think?

erik olson

Quote:> Agreed.  It needs to be not too much more expensive than a Nintendo 64 in
> order to be viable; take N64 ($150), add keyboard ($25), NIC ($25), some
> extra RAM ($25), and a little disk drive ($75) and you get to about $300.
> Not an unrealistic price, if they can get them produced in decent quantity.

-b

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SAVE FERRIS

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Frank Sweetser rasmusin at wpi.edu fsweetser at blee.net  | PGP key available
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Perl is designed to give you several ways to do anything, so
consider picking the most readable one.
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Frank Sweetser rasmusin at wpi.edu fsweetser at blee.net  | PGP key available
paramount.ind.wpi.edu RedHat 5.2 kernel 2.1.126p2ac2 i586 | at public servers
Today I set a motherboard on fire. Now the bizarre thing is that after
the smoke cleared it still worked.
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