Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by jaso » Thu, 07 Aug 1997 04:00:00



Hello

        I am sorry to hear that you have made this
BAD choice.  I will of make this position public and
make other Linux users of aware of your position.  You may
wish to consider that Linux users make decisions about what
hardware venders to buy from in a wide array of organisations.
I hope that you will change your position on this issue.  
Your companys decision to not support open development will
leave a black mark on the name Miro in the minds of millions of
buyers worldwide.

jason


> Hi Jason,

> we discussed the issue of Linux support for the miroVIDEO DCxx products
> recently. We decided that we won't do Linux drivers, and instead focus
> on WinNT, Win95 and MacOS as the most important OSs for video editing.

> We further decided not to give away hardware/software descriptions and
> source code for such a project being done externally. Main reasons are
> to make sure that all DCxx drivers are of the same high, miro-proven
> quality, to limit our support effort, and to protect our tricks and
> secrets. We also think that Linux isn't a very important OS for video
> editing because of the lack of software infrastructure in this area..

> Video capture for special purposes is a different issue, for that we
> offer the miro PCTV product with an existing Linux driver.

> Regards

> Thorsten Meyer

> > ----------
> > Betreff:      Linux drivers for DC10

> > I would like to write a linux driver for
> > the DC10.  Has one been made? Have you begun
> > working on one? If not please provide me
> > with the program details so I can make your
> > DC10 card valuable to a growing world of
> > Linux users.



 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Tatu P Saloran » Fri, 08 Aug 1997 04:00:00





>[In response to a well-written, polite, and thoughtful letter from Miro]

Thoughtful? Well, opinions are opinions. Didn't really sound all that
thoughtful to me, although it was polite enough considering the content.

Quote:>>        I am sorry to hear that you have made this
>>BAD choice.  I will of make this position public and
>>make other Linux users of aware of your position.  You may
>>wish to consider that Linux users make decisions about what
>>hardware venders to buy from in a wide array of organisations.
>>I hope that you will change your position on this issue.  
>>Your companys decision to not support open development will
>>leave a black mark on the name Miro in the minds of millions of
>>buyers worldwide.
>Sheesh.
>Look, kid, here's a few tips:
>1.  The world ain't provided for your personal convenience.  Some
>manufacturers aren't going to provide drivers and are going to be
>understandably reluctant to have details of their hardware widely
>dispersed.  Deal.  Find some other hardware that will work; if that ain't
>possible, and you need to work with this hardware, use a supported OS.
>Them's the breaks.

Uh huh. Company is free to act in whatever the way the feel, sure, but that's
_exactly_ why linux-users might consider expressing their dislike of such
policies. It's understandable (from certain point-of-view) to not write
drivers by themselves; but to make specs non-public is a very stupid
thing to do. The world is generally going the other direction; Matrox
(as an example) chose to publish specs so drivers could be written;
it looks plain foolish to shoot yourself on the foot by making it
a proprietary design. IMO it can only hurt Miro's business.
I sure know one person who will now re-consider purchase of the
Miromedia PCTV-card... :-/

You may dislike the tone of the person who wrote the original letter, but
it seems odd that you are suggesting either dumping linux, or finding
another card manufacturer, instead of trying to make Miro re-consider
their policy? And informing other linux-users about this thing should be
one viable way to try to make Miro realize how important decision it
really is. If they get lots of requests for linux-drivers or specifications
for their cards, they might re-consider the decision. Or they might just
ignore it... But if you just quietly let it go, it'll hurt everyone
(well, except Miro's competitors I guess. =) ).

--
Tatu Saloranta, aka Doomdark.


 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Michael Kozlows » Fri, 08 Aug 1997 04:00:00





>>[In response to a well-written, polite, and thoughtful letter from Miro]

>Thoughtful? Well, opinions are opinions.

No, they're not.  Some opinions are right, and others are wrong.

Which category mine fall into is left as an exercise for the reader.

Quote:>>1.  The world ain't provided for your personal convenience.  Some
>>manufacturers aren't going to provide drivers and are going to be
>>understandably reluctant to have details of their hardware widely
>>dispersed.  Deal.  Find some other hardware that will work; if that ain't
>>possible, and you need to work with this hardware, use a supported OS.
>>Them's the breaks.

>Uh huh. Company is free to act in whatever the way the feel, sure, but that's
>_exactly_ why linux-users might consider expressing their dislike of such
>policies.

Sure.  Write a letter refuting their reasons for not offering the driver
(and Miro's reasons struck me as very good, incidentally).  Don't just
* that "It's not fair!"

Companies are in business to make money.  Show them that writing a Linux
driver will be worth the cost.  In this case, I doubt that it is.

Quote:>It's understandable (from certain point-of-view) to not write
>drivers by themselves; but to make specs non-public is a very stupid
>thing to do. The world is generally going the other direction;

The world can do what it wants.  If a company has a reason for keeping
specs private, I don't have a problem with that.  It's their hardware,
after all.

--

Recommended SF Reading at: http://www.veryComputer.com/~mlk/sfbooks.html
"Alzheimer's Sufferers Demand Cure for Pancakes" - www.theonion.com

 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Tatu P Saloran » Sat, 09 Aug 1997 04:00:00






>>>[In response to a well-written, polite, and thoughtful letter from Miro]

>>Thoughtful? Well, opinions are opinions.
>No, they're not.  Some opinions are right, and others are wrong.

Uh. I hope that was meant to be a joke. Facts are facts and opinions
are opinions. You can seldom label any opinion as 'right' or
'wrong'... If you could, it'd be a fact.

Quote:>>Uh huh. Company is free to act in whatever the way the feel, sure, but that's
>>_exactly_ why linux-users might consider expressing their dislike of such
>>policies.
>Sure.  Write a letter refuting their reasons for not offering the driver
>(and Miro's reasons struck me as very good, incidentally).  Don't just
>* that "It's not fair!"

I'm not *ing, and I actually did write a 'polite thoughtful' email
to them after reading the first article (first reading their www-page
just in case, to see what information they were offering).

Quote:>Companies are in business to make money.  Show them that writing a Linux
>driver will be worth the cost.  In this case, I doubt that it is.

Who knows? It all depends... Linux is being used in many places these days;
and it's not a bad choice for a cheap gfx-workstation. Even more so if
hw like Miro and others are making was better supported.

But the main point is that no one is really expecting they should write
one by themselves; usually (in linux case) companies publish
specifications for their chipsets and cards, and then some kind soul
writes a driver.

Quote:>>It's understandable (from certain point-of-view) to not write
>>drivers by themselves; but to make specs non-public is a very stupid
>>thing to do. The world is generally going the other direction;
>The world can do what it wants.  If a company has a reason for keeping
>specs private, I don't have a problem with that.  It's their hardware,
>after all.

Yeah. Stupid companies do things the other way; stupid companies go
bankcrupt and die. Open systems have been succesful and there is no
reason to believe this trend wouldn't continue. Besides, there
seems to be no good reason not to make programming aspects public.
It doesn't have to have anything to with idealism; it's just that this
way they are effectively cutting down their potential market, with
no obvious reason. That's what looks odd.
--
Tatu Saloranta, aka Doomdark.

 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Tilman Boh » Sat, 09 Aug 1997 04:00:00


[...]

Quote:> Yeah. Stupid companies do things the other way; stupid companies go
> bankcrupt and die.

Interestingly, miro is in the process of doing just that. ;-)
See http://www.ix.de/newsticker/data/em-30.07.97-000/ (in german).

--
Cheers,
Tilman Bohn

To reply via e-mail, change "t.b" to "tb" in the From: field.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Max-Planck-Institut fuer Kernphysik "I am the assassin with tongue
 Abteilung fuer Kosmophysik           forged from eloquence
 Heidelberg, Germany                  I am the assassin
                                      providing your nemesis" -Marillion
------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Carlos Wexl » Sat, 09 Aug 1997 04:00:00







>>>[In response to a well-written, polite, and thoughtful letter from Miro]

>>Thoughtful? Well, opinions are opinions.

>No, they're not.  Some opinions are right, and others are wrong.

Exactly. Yours is wrong...

Carlos
--

 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Matt Gundr » Sat, 09 Aug 1997 04:00:00


<dickmode> LOOK AT THE CARD! Sidestep the middleman! HINT -
ftp.zoran.com </dickmode>

I don't mean to be an ass, but if you are going to write a Linux driver,
you've got to be more resourceful ;)

Matt Gundry

 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Larry Blanchar » Sat, 09 Aug 1997 04:00:00



> Yeah. Stupid companies do things the other way; stupid companies go
> bankcrupt and die. Open systems have been succesful and there is no
> reason to believe this trend wouldn't continue. Besides, there
> seems to be no good reason not to make programming aspects public.

Well, I suspect you could get a different view of open systems success
from the survivors of IBM's PC group.  They may be good for us users,
but there are certainly times they aren't good for a manufacturer :-).
 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Mr. Caldwe » Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:00:00






>> Companies are in business to make money.  Show them that writing a Linux
>> driver will be worth the cost.  In this case, I doubt that it is.

>No-one suggested that they write it themselves, there may indeed be an
>interest in doing so.

I won't buy hardware without the register level development information.

Period.

Quote:>Bruce McDonald

_____________________________________________
Real mail address: jcaldwel at iquest dot net
code word is notaspam put in first line of message
no code word == trashed message
--------------------------------------------------
 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Kenneth Camer » Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:00:00


As one of the people who approached Miro about writing a driver (although
I've never had any response, positive or negative from them), I'd like
to comment on the response they gave to another would be driver writer.
I've been away from the net for a few weeks and I'm just catching up, so
forgive me if I'm repeating points already made.


> we discussed the issue of Linux support for the miroVIDEO DCxx products
> recently. We decided that we won't do Linux drivers, and instead focus
> on WinNT, Win95 and MacOS as the most important OSs for video editing.

This is entirely reasonable, and a sensible commercial decision.

Quote:> We further decided not to give away hardware/software descriptions and
> source code for such a project being done externally.

This is a pity, but let's consider the reasons,

Quote:> Main reasons are
> to make sure that all DCxx drivers are of the same high, Miro-proven
> quality,

Careful here guys, this sentence could come back to haunt you. It is also
a little insulting. It suggests that those who wish to write a Linux
driver for a DCxx card are less capable than Miros programmers. I earn
my living writing software, if I've made a serious error in my code,
you might want to think twice the next time you get on a plane, in a car,
or go anywhere near a powerstation :-)

Quote:> to limit our support effort,

Which sounds better ?

"We don't like Linux, get lost."

or,

"We don't support Linux ourselves, but you can pickup a driver from any
of the Linux mirror sites. Talk to the authors if you have a problem, I'm
sure they can help you out".

Quote:> and to protect our tricks and secrets.

Ah, a challenge :-) Did you know that if you boot windows, use the DC30,
then use loadlin to launch Linux, you don't reset the card and can read
back a lot of the registers. Neat trick huh ? Seriously, all the chip
makers whos devices you've used are happy to send out data sheets. I
have them for everything except your asics. I don't plan to reverse engineer
your windows driver code, I'll just probe the card and make some guesses.
Accessing the I2C bus and the MSE3000 was pretty straightforward. Have
I got my point across yet ? Life would be simpler with a decent set of
hardware docs, but as the car salesman says, "It'd be no fun if it was easy."

Oh, and the resulting quality would also be higher as well :-)

Quote:> We also think that Linux isn't a very important OS for video
> editing because of the lack of software infrastructure in this area..

This is a circular argument. Because there's no support for video under
Linux, we won't help with the development of video support for Linux.

I'd really like to write a good Unix NLE package, modular, so people can
add to it. But I have to write the capture/playback drivers first.

Quote:> Video capture for special purposes is a different issue, for that we
> offer the Miro PCTV product with an existing Linux driver.

Question: Has the existence of this driver increased or decreased sales
of your PCTV card ?

I'm guessing here that if it had cost you in sales you would not be
promoting it here. Therefore it has either not hurt, or has helped.
Why should providing the programming specs for the DCxx be any different.

Quote:> Regards

> Thorsten Meyer

I'd like to point out that I think the DC30 is a great card. I really
like using it and have n't had too many problems with it. I'd just
rather use it from Linux than Windows (as it's the only thing I need
to use Windows for). I'll now be keeping an eye on the competition and
if another similar spec'd card appears and gets some Linux support
I'll be tempted to move.

And as a final suggestion to Miro, give Diamond a call and ask them
if they think trying to ignore Linux is a good idea :-)

Cheers,
Kenneth.

--
Kenneth Cameron    This message has been  Digital Equipment International
Software Engineer  digitally re-mastered                  Galway, Ireland

 
 
 

Open message to Miro--Do not buy Miro products

Post by Ingo Molna » Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:00:00



: >It's understandable (from certain point-of-view) to not write
: >drivers by themselves; but to make specs non-public is a very stupid
: >thing to do. The world is generally going the other direction;

: The world can do what it wants.  If a company has a reason for keeping
: specs private, I don't have a problem with that.  It's their hardware,
: after all.

no, it's _my_ hardware after i've bought the product. And if they do not
give me the freedom of choosing the OS _i_ want, i go and complain,
drop the product, etc. Probably i wont flame in a newsgroup, but if
anyone does, it's his goddamn right.

hw companies have the right to be passive. Lots of companies are passive,
ie. they do not allocate resources to support something they dont find
useful enough yet. But hiding _usage_ specifications is an active way
of restricting my rights. After all, you dont get your medicine in a
white box, do you?

-- mingo

 
 
 

1. Political advice. Do not buy miro HW!

Advice not to buy any miro (www.miro.de) products!

Miro does produce videocards and video edititing hardware for
MS-DOS and Macintosh.

A group of Linux programmers wanted to write a Linux-device-driver for
their video grabber and compression board DC30.

I contacted miro and the product manager was positive about giving out
the informations needed to write the Linux driver. Afer four weeks of
emailing and phoning, the management (not the product-manager) decided
that they will not give out the information because a bad written driver
might result in a bad image for miro.

This posting is an attempt to proove to them that it makes an even worse
image for miro not to support programmers in the efford of writing
software for their hardware and will lead to less HW sales.

I advice everyone who wants to support the spirit of free software (also
Windows and Mac Users) not to buy any miro hardware (new or used), not
to  give advice to anyone using miro hardware or disable free software
to  support miro hardware.

I invite anyone to add this advice to any document it seems appropriate
and advice others to do so too.

This advice is political and doesnt say anything about the qualitiy of
miro products.


2. Has anyone installed Realtek RTL8019 successfully??

3. miro DC10 video capture has it been done?

4. Embedded

5. miro PCTV still not working

6. Complete P133 Canon Computer at Closeout Price

7. miro PCTV (bt848) does not work

8. Tape Drive

9. Miro TV almost working...but not with KWinTV :-(

10. Political advice. Do not buy an miro products!1

11. Remeber BUY MSFT=BUY USA=BUY AMERICAN, not commie monster SCAM linux

12. MIRO cristal 20SD and Xwindows

13. X-Server for Miro Video 40SV ergo?