Microstation blows off Linux

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Mark Hamstr » Tue, 27 Feb 1996 04:00:00



Here's the response I got from Bentley regarding the possibilty of
porting, or allowing an independant port of, Microstation to Linux.
Apparently they don't share my enthusiasm for students using Linux to
run their academic package -- an outstanding offering in every respect
save the restricted operating system choice.

If you would like to see (and pay for) a first-class CAD system on
Linux, let Diane know how you feel.  Maybe if they learn how many of us
there are, they will rethink their shortsighted policy.

>     Thanks for your interest in MicroStation and Bentley products.

>     ...There are no plans for porting to Linux as there is
>     no commercial business case for doing so....

>     Regards,

>     Diane Davis
>     Academic Program Manager
>     Bentley--The People Behind MicroStation


 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by bgee » Wed, 28 Feb 1996 04:00:00


 >Here's the response I got from Bentley regarding the possibilty of
 >porting, or allowing an independant port of, Microstation to Linux.
 >    
 >>     Thanks for your interest in MicroStation and Bentley products.
 >>
 >>     ...There are no plans for porting to Linux as there is
 >>     no commercial business case for doing so....

Wonder who does their market research...

It would be curious to know what criteria they use for determining
"business cases"...

--
<> Robert Geer & Donna Tomky /              *             <>

<>   Salt Lake City, Utah   |   -\<,      * <\      </L   <>
<>          U S A           |   O/ O     __ /__,    />    <>

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Lance A. Bro » Wed, 28 Feb 1996 04:00:00



> It would be curious to know what criteria they use for determining
> "business cases"...

A "business case" is a cost vs. profit analysis of how a potential
product would fare in the market.  If the business case cannot show
the possiblity of a profit the company is not going to be inclined to
develop the product.

How many people out there are running linux boxes and want CAD/GEOS
packages on them?  If that number can't support a business case for
porting Microstation than it won't happen.

--[Lance]

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Mark Hamstr » Wed, 28 Feb 1996 04:00:00




>  >Here's the response I got from Bentley regarding the possibilty of
>  >porting, or allowing an independant port of, Microstation to Linux.

>  >>     Thanks for your interest in MicroStation and Bentley products.

>  >>     ...There are no plans for porting to Linux as there is
>  >>     no commercial business case for doing so....

> Wonder who does their market research...

> It would be curious to know what criteria they use for determining
> "business cases"...
> I already sent Diane a follow-up comparing Linux to the Unix flavors and

MS OS's they already support and pointing out the commercial viability
and potential of Linux.  The response was an even more terse "Thanks for
your input."  Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
missing.

I've received some response from comp.cad.microstation on this, but no
direct feedback from the linux groups.  Of course, I didn't ask for
feedback in my initial post, but I am now: If you take the time to
bother Bentley about doing or allowing a Linux port, please also drop me
a line so I can estimate how effective the campaign is.

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Mark Hamstr » Wed, 28 Feb 1996 04:00:00





> >>Here's the response I got from Bentley regarding the possibility of
> >>porting, or allowing an independant port of, Microstation to Linux.
> >>Apparently they don't share my enthusiasm for students using Linux to
> >>run their academic package -- an outstanding offering in every
> >>respect save the restricted operating system choice.

> >>If you would like to see (and pay for) a first-class CAD system on
> >>Linux, let Diane know how you feel.  Maybe if they learn how many of
> >>us there are, they will rethink their shortsighted policy.

> >Mark: There are many, many things that go into the decision to port a
> >professional application like MicroStation to various hardware
> >platforms and/or operating environments. Technical feasibility makes
> >up a part of the overall reasoning - then there's production, support,
> >certification, documentation, marketing, sales, etc, etc. that all
> >need to be taken into consideration. This decision has little to do
> >with capabilities of operating environments - it is primarily a
> >business decision. Note that we saw a great need for a Windows NT port
> >and we were the first vendor to have a professional computer-aided
> >design product commercially available for Windows NT (back in 1993, no
> >less.)

> >Given that we have heard very little desire for a Linux port of
> >MicroStation (actually, close to none) from the commercial community,
> >the decision to port to Linux is at this time, as Diane mentions, not
> >being considered. Should there be a call from the business community
> >for a Linux version of MicroStation, we will most certainly
> >re-evaluate. We invite any such commercial related requests to be sent
> >our way.

Phil,
Care to give us an address instead of just this bland pronouncement?  Since there
is no Microsoft or IBM marketing department to motivate you on our behalf, a
mail-in campaign is our only viable recourse.  I don't think I detect any
animosity on Bentley's part, just indifference to the point of rudeness.  If you
mean what you say concerning re-evaluation, then provide us at least this minimal
contact point to demonstrate your oversight.

Quote:

> Phil,
> You missed the beef - slightly. We had had this discussion before - about OS/2.
> If I recall things right - there were a number of licenses mentioned at that time -
> 1000 pcs (put the right number here - it was, after all, long time ago)?

> Then, a kinda of call from IBM....

> Now, MicroStation/2 is almost out of Beta :)

> Things are quite simple, right?

If an OS/2 port is feasible, then why not a Linux port, for which you already have
the great majority of the code in your existing Unix implementations?
 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Rick Forriste » Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:00:00




> > I already sent Diane a follow-up comparing Linux to the Unix flavors and
> > MS OS's they already support and pointing out the commercial viability
> > and potential of Linux.  The response was an even more terse "Thanks for
> > your input."  Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
> > bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
> > missing.

> What makes you think it's "anti-Linux bigotry"? If they don't think they
> are going to make a profit then who can blame them? Yes, I like to see
> commercial software ported to and running on Linux, but then again I've
> got no use for this software, I'd never use it, so I'm not going to
> ask them to port it because when it gets to Linux I'm not gonna buy it.

> > I've received some response from comp.cad.microstation on this, but no
> > direct feedback from the linux groups.  Of course, I didn't ask for
> > feedback in my initial post, but I am now: If you take the time to
> > bother Bentley about doing or allowing a Linux port, please also drop me
> > a line so I can estimate how effective the campaign is.

> I do hope you have success. But for their sake, and for the sake of Linux,
> I hope that all of the people who write to them asking for a Linux
> version will buy it, because if they port it and then find that the "need"
> for the software was hype, well, it's not gonna help anyone is it?

> --
> Dave Pearson              | Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator.

> --------------------------+   Have you no sense of decency, Sir?
> Compuserve: 101510,2235   |    At long last, have you no sense of decency?

Dave raises some really good points here.  I've seen the same sort
of "Write the Company!" pleas before; and the results is too likely
to (a) be a snow job, and (B) be of the form "If you make it, I'll
buy it, REALLY!   TRUST ME!".  If you want to see something really
happen, then when you write, don't say something like (b), tell them
that you're interested, and _WHY_.  Why should they believe that you
will purchase what they're being asked to make.  Tell them you're
willing to put up a non-refundable deposit in good faith.  Give them
a reason to belive that the level of expressed interest is sincere.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Rick Forrister               | Hobby: Collecting, Preserving &  |

-------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Mark Levi » Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:00:00



Quote:>community, like WordPerfect or Microsoft Word would.  Untill and unless
>a *major* product, such as WordPerfect, Word, Access, etc., is ported
>and actively supported under Linux, don't expect to see any more
>marginal products ported and supported.

  FYI calder is selling a fully supported version of Wordperfect 6.0, ported
to Linux.  You have to buy caldera's Linux distribution to use it, but it's
a step in the right direction.

--
____________________________________________________________________

                    Mark E. Levitt
    Department of Speech Communication, Syracuse University

         Home Page:  http://web.syr.edu/~melevitt

PGP fingerprint =  B8 A3 AA A6 0F 83 9A BE  F2 7A 19 F9 15 79 FE A4
Public key available from http://web.syr.edu/~melevitt/pgpkey.html
____________________________________________________________________

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Dave Pearso » Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:00:00



> I already sent Diane a follow-up comparing Linux to the Unix flavors and
> MS OS's they already support and pointing out the commercial viability
> and potential of Linux.  The response was an even more terse "Thanks for
> your input."  Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
> bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
> missing.

What makes you think it's "anti-Linux bigotry"? If they don't think they
are going to make a profit then who can blame them? Yes, I like to see
commercial software ported to and running on Linux, but then again I've
got no use for this software, I'd never use it, so I'm not going to
ask them to port it because when it gets to Linux I'm not gonna buy it.

Quote:> I've received some response from comp.cad.microstation on this, but no
> direct feedback from the linux groups.  Of course, I didn't ask for
> feedback in my initial post, but I am now: If you take the time to
> bother Bentley about doing or allowing a Linux port, please also drop me
> a line so I can estimate how effective the campaign is.

I do hope you have success. But for their sake, and for the sake of Linux,
I hope that all of the people who write to them asking for a Linux
version will buy it, because if they port it and then find that the "need"
for the software was hype, well, it's not gonna help anyone is it?

--
Dave Pearson              | Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator.

--------------------------+   Have you no sense of decency, Sir?
Compuserve: 101510,2235   |    At long last, have you no sense of decency?

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Warwick Allis » Fri, 01 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Commercial ventures do need to be careful not to miss out.

For example, I needed a spreadsheet at work, so I ran Wingz remotely on
one of the Linux boxes here (that are normally just used as X-Terminals).

A few people saw it, and are now encouraging our department to purchase
a Solaris version (running it remotely is a pain).

I sometimes think they forget where Demand comes from originally - people.

Wingz for Linux is Shareware.  They probably make almost nothing off it,
but popularity.  MS-Pirateware learnt the dark side of doing that years ago.

Anyway, I don't even know what Microstation is, I just wanted to point out
the hidden advantage of providing Linux ports that straight bean-counting
cannot reveal.

--
Warwick
--

/     * <- Comp Sci Department, McD: http://student.uq.edu.au/~s002434/mcl.html
\_.-._/    Univ. of Queensland, POV: http://student.uq.edu.au/~s002434/pov.html
     v     Brisbane, Australia. ME:  http://student.uq.edu.au/~s002434

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Sean Ed » Fri, 01 Mar 1996 04:00:00


   >mail-in campaign is our only viable recourse.  I don't think I detect any
   >animosity on Bentley's part, just indifference to the point of rudeness.  

The guy says clearly and politely he won't port to Linux unless
there's good business reasons to do so, and you call it "indifference
to the point of rudeness"? Sounds like a well-considered business
decision to me. Not everyone has the luxury of being in the free
software "business". Show them that they can make a profit, and
they'll do the port.

--
- Sean Eddy
- Dept. of Genetics, Washington University School of Medicine

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Mark Komarins » Fri, 01 Mar 1996 04:00:00


: >

: >
: >  >Here's the response I got from Bentley regarding the possibilty of
: >  >porting, or allowing an independant port of, Microstation to Linux.
: >  >
: >  >>     Thanks for your interest in MicroStation and Bentley products.
: >  >>
: >  >>     ...There are no plans for porting to Linux as there is
: >  >>     no commercial business case for doing so....
: >
: > Wonder who does their market research...
: >
: > It would be curious to know what criteria they use for determining
: > "business cases"...
: > I already sent Diane a follow-up comparing Linux to the Unix flavors and
: MS OS's they already support and pointing out the commercial viability
: and potential of Linux.  The response was an even more terse "Thanks for
: your input."  Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
: bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
: missing.

I think the only way to combat this "anti-Linux bigotry" is to buy a
competitor's product.  Don't think that they're being anti-Linux per se..
do they have a release for FreeBSD?  They're just looking at what
will sell and what won't.  Do they have an OS/2 release?
(no offense intended for OS/2 or FreeBSD folks)

: I've received some response from comp.cad.microstation on this, but no
: direct feedback from the linux groups.  Of course, I didn't ask for
: feedback in my initial post, but I am now: If you take the time to
: bother Bentley about doing or allowing a Linux port, please also drop me
: a line so I can estimate how effective the campaign is.

Best of luck in finding paying customers.

--

Linux: Commercial software gone horribly wrong.

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Anthony D. Tribel » Sat, 02 Mar 1996 04:00:00


: ... Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
: bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
: missing ...

"Anti-linux bigotry"? Customers usually dictate the OS to developers. If
many organizations were contacting them and saying "we have X workstations
running linux" there would probably be a port. OS cheerleaders contacting
them and lecturing them about their favorite OS will do little good
(probably actually harm, reinforcing the naive stereotype that linux is a
kid's OS, that grownup users use Sun, SGI, HP, IBM, etc...). And yes, if
the developer of a particular OS pays for a port and its support there
would probably be a port as well.

I can sympathise with Microstation's position. My company has a chemistry
product for Windows and Mac. A major textbook publisher bundles this
product with general and organic chemistry texts. Their sales force does
thousands of demos for chemistry departments. We (the developers) would
love to do a linux port, but when we're told that tens of thousands of
Win/Mac units have been sold in the last two years, and that in this time
frame there were only 6 OS/2 inquiries and 0 linux inquiries, we have no
rebuttal. Your suggestion?

BTW, if your organization has a need for molecular modeling and
visualization software running under linux, send me email. :-)

Tony

--
------------------
Tony Tribelli

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Mark Hamstr » Sat, 02 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Thanks for the response Kevin.

I'm quoting the dialogue in full, since the 'newsgroups:' field was innacurate
in previous postings, so not everyone has been seeing this.  This is precisely
the kind of considered discussion I was hoping for --glad to see I'm either
not crazy, or at least not the only looney tune.





> >>Here's the response I got from Bentley regarding the possibilty of
> >>porting, or allowing an independant port of, Microstation to Linux.
> >>Apparently they don't share my enthusiasm for students using Linux to
> >>run their academic package -- an outstanding offering in every
> >>respect save the restricted operating system choice.

> >>If you would like to see (and pay for) a first-class CAD system on
> >>Linux, let Diane know how you feel.  Maybe if they learn how many of
> >>us there are, they will rethink their shortsighted policy.

> >Mark: There are many, many things that go into the decision to port a
> >professional application like MicroStation to various hardware
> >platforms and/or operating environments. Technical feasibility makes
> >up a part of the overall reasoning

> ...and how much it makes up almost certainly depends on how
> technically feasible it is.  If a port of the product to Linux is as
> simple as a recompile, then all of the other considerations are likely
> to weigh much more heavily.

> I do have to ask: *is* Microstation portable enough that you'd be able
> to get away with a simple recompile of it under Linux?  Might be worth
> a try just to see how well it works...

> > - then there's production,

> Some vendors distribute their product via ftp.  For Linux, this is
> likely to be perfectly acceptable.  The printed documentation and
> appropriate license codes could be sent when the customer actually
> pays money for it...

> >support,

> The nice thing about support is that, aside from getting some
> experience with Linux, your costs aren't going to be high unless the
> demand for support is high.  But the demand for support will be
> proportional to the customer base, so overall support costs scale
> well.  Therefore, I doubt that support is going to be much of an
> issue, aside from the necessity of gaining some experience with Linux.

> Since my job is customer support, I'm intimately familiar with these
> issues.

> >certification,

> There's definitely going to be some of that, but I'd hope that you
> have some kind of automated test suite that you can use to qualify the
> product, at least to a degree...

> > documentation,

> This is likely to be the highest fixed expense.  But if the product
> has already been ported to other Unix platforms, then this should be
> minimal.  Indeed, it should be minimal enough that you could simply
> ship an addendum or, better yet, put the additional documentation or
> changenotes on disk.  Unless, of course, the changes in operation are
> significant...which shouldn't be the case if it's a simple recompile.

> In other words, how much of an additional effort this will be will
> be related to how technically difficult it will be to do the port.

> >marketing,

> This is probably the smallest expense.  Just put a regular notice in
> comp.os.linux.announce, or any other similarly related newsgroup.
> Linux users tend to read those groups regularly.

> > sales,

> You have a sales force that deals with selling the other ports of your
> product, right?  Why would you have to change it, unless you plan to
> market the product aggressively?  How you do this is up to you.  If
> you don't see the product as bringing in a lot of revenue, then you
> can reduce the sales expenditure to those required to field calls from
> potential customers...and the more of those you have, the more sales
> you're likely to have.

> >etc, etc. that all
> >need to be taken into consideration. This decision has little to do
> >with capabilities of operating environments - it is primarily a
> >business decision. Note that we saw a great need for a Windows NT port
> >and we were the first vendor to have a professional computer-aided
> >design product commercially available for Windows NT (back in 1993, no
> >less.)

> Out of curiosity, how well has the NT port been selling?  Has it met
> or exceeded your expectations?

> >Given that we have heard very little desire for a Linux port of
> >MicroStation (actually, close to none) from the commercial community,
> >the decision to port to Linux is at this time, as Diane mentions, not
> >being considered. Should there be a call from the business community
> >for a Linux version of MicroStation, we will most certainly
> >re-evaluate. We invite any such commercial related requests to be sent
> >our way.

> Consider, too, that interest in your product may well be heightened
> dramatically by its availability.  Additionally, there is the risk of
> losing the Linux market to a competitor.

> And there's one more thing to consider: Linux isn't going to go away
> unless people *want* it to.  Unlike commercial operating systems,
> where the well-being of the OS depends on the marketing prowess of the
> company in question, the well-being of Linux is almost entirely in the
> hands of its users.  Some people here have likened Linux with
> socialism.  But as software development projects go, Linux is about as
> democratic as it gets.  More than any other OS, Linux is of the
> people, by the people, and for the people (Linus Torvalds did an
> excellent job of starting the ball rolling and continues to do an
> excellent job of maintaining the quality of the "official" release).
> The only reason Linux will die is if its users stop using it, and the
> only reason that will happen is if Linux stops meeting their needs.
> The availability of the source is the best guarantee that Linux will
> continue to meet the needs of its users...because its users (or some
> skilled subset of them, at any rate) can *make* it meet their needs.
> This cannot be said about *any* commercial OS (with the possible
> exception of BSDI).

> Sometimes you just have to take risks in order to grow your business.
> I can't say whether this is one of those times or not, but I can say
> that it's something to consider, especially if your product is highly
> portable.  As Unix platforms go, Linux is among the most popular and,
> in my opinion, among the most promising.  Consider your decision
> carefully, and remember: Linux users are numerous enough that Diamond
> Multimedia changed their policy regarding releasing the programming
> specs for their video cards in order to accomodate those users (in
> enlightened self-interest, of course :-).

> In other words, don't underestimate the Linux user base...both in
> terms of where it is now, and where it seems to be heading...

> --

> This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
>             This is your .signature virus on *: <>
>                         Any questions?

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Or » Sat, 02 Mar 1996 04:00:00





>: ... Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
>: bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
>: missing ...

>"Anti-linux bigotry"? Customers usually dictate the OS to developers.

    Yes, but sometimes you need to look for the customers.

    I've ported a large chemical modelling product to Linux under
nothing more than the hope that someone would find it worthwhile
at a reduced rate, but since I've started the port two people have
contacted the vendor asking about availability _at full price_ (US$5
digits, not including decimal point) for Alpha Linux.  Nobody had
asked about the port beforehand, which would have made it perfectly
reasonable to not make the port, but it was worthwhile to try on the
strength of the userbase.

    But you roll the dice and take your chances.  Microstation has
decided that one inquiry isn't enough to port on; further inquiries,
PARTICULARLY if they are the usual usenet pile-o-flames wrapped
around an inquiry, will not help.  A far more productive thing, of
course, would be to send them a purchase order asking for a Linux
version.  If the purchase order was for 4-500 copies, so much the
better.

                  ____

                   \/

 
 
 

Microstation blows off Linux

Post by Evan Leibovit » Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:00:00





>: ... Again, the only way to change this kind of anti-Linux
>: bigottry is to write those responsible and let them know what they are
>: missing ...
>"Anti-linux bigotry"? Customers usually dictate the OS to developers. If
>many organizations were contacting them and saying "we have X workstations
>running linux" there would probably be a port.

And maybe even that wouldn't be enought. A commercial software vendor
would have to be convinced that this installed base constitutes a
market that would actually buy the product. I've heard from vendors
who recognize the significant numbers of Linux users, but sneer that
"these people won't pay for their software", and predict that a Linux
port would not be profitable.

--
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario

      Economists have successfully predicted 14 of the last 2 recessions

 
 
 

1. ! My swap partition blew off...

Hi !

        By trying to retrieve too much (Usenet) articles, my swap
partition blew off (100 Mb)...

        This partition used to be hda7, and when I fdisk /dev/hda, it
gaves me strange numbers for this partition, so I deleted it. Now,
when I try to fdisk hda, I have:  

Using /dev/hda as default device!

Unable to read /dev/hda

        When I boot, I have these messages when the kernel tries to
check the disk:

Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: Partition check:
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel:  hda:Started kswapd v 1.4.2.2
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel:  hda1 hda2 < hda5 hda6hda: read_intr:
status=0x59 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error }
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: error=0x10 {
SectorIdNotFound }, LBAsect=36933219, sector=0
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: status=0x59 {
DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error }
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: error=0x10 {
SectorIdNotFound }, LBAsect=36933219, sector=0
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: status=0x59 {
DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error }
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: error=0x10 {
SectorIdNotFound }, LBAsect=36933219, sector=0
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: status=0x59 {
DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error }
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: hda: read_intr: error=0x10 {
SectorIdNotFound }, LBAsect=36933219, sector=0
Jul  8 13:39:25 entropie kernel: ide0: reset: success

etc.

        Though the other partitions (hda5 and hda6) are OK, I can't
use fdisk to recreat hda7 or whatever, because I can't use fdisk...
        What can I do, now ?

        Thanks for any help !!!
--

2. OT: eBay

3. Cryptic X-windows Blow-off

4. Dail in Linux Server

5. ! My swap partition blew off...

6. User lockout question

7. MicroStation under Linux

8. VRML browser for XFree86?

9. Microstation for Linux

10. Bently Microstation on Linux

11. Wanted: microstation for linux x86 binary

12. Microstation 95 CAD for Linux reviewed in LJ July97.

13. MicroStation V5 under linux