Will this ever change?

Will this ever change?

Post by Christopher R. Carle » Sun, 05 Sep 1999 04:00:00



I have been using Linux for a few years.  

I consistently run into this situation:  I make a graphic in one
program, and I want to use it in another program.

In Windows, I copy and paste.  Done!  I don't know how Windows does it,
but almost every application I ever used in Windows, (math, drawing,
word processing, electronic diagram, and chemical structure drawing)
would all communicate with each other seemlessly.  I never had to worry
about importing/exporting and hoping that the filters would work.

What's more, any time I prepared a graphic in a program, then copied it
to WordPerfect (my preferred WP, although I am very disappointed in with
the addition of features to WP7 that make it try to think for me), I
could always resize and scale the graphic.

But in Linux I must export some format that is compatible with the
destination program, and that is almost certainly not the native format
of the program I created the graphic with in the first place.  Rarely do
the export/import filters work without annoying little bugs or sever
loss of resolution of something.  And I can't scale it once I import it
into a word processor.

I can also not understand fonts in Linux.  I can do it if I had the
time.  But I don't.  I have the time to do my work with programs, not
spend weeks studying the innards of Linux to figure it all out.  I have
reached a balance, where the really essential things I can do
proficiently in Linux.  I can compile software, the kernel, and solve a
lot of problems.  I got ppp set up my own way, and have an automagic
print filter set up.  But I can't expend the effort it takes to do these
things every time I want to put a graphic from one program into a
document in another program.

Why can Windows do this so well, and Linux (X Window System) can't?
Will it ever change?

--
_____________________________
Christopher R. Carlen

My OS is Linux 2.0.29

 
 
 

Will this ever change?

Post by Rod Smi » Sun, 05 Sep 1999 04:00:00


[Posted and mailed]



Quote:> I have been using Linux for a few years.  

> I consistently run into this situation:  I make a graphic in one
> program, and I want to use it in another program.

> In Windows, I copy and paste.  Done!
...
> But in Linux I must export some format that is compatible with the
> destination program
...
> I can also not understand fonts in Linux.
...
> Why can Windows do this so well, and Linux (X Window System) can't?

When "it" refers to cutting and pasting between applications, the cause is
that Windows has a much better clipboard technology for cutting and
pasting between applications.  This is part of Windows or the X Window
system, and it's a set of tools that applications are invited to use.
They generally do in Windows, but as the underlying tools are so crude in
Linux, it just doesn't get used much, except for text.

When "it" refers to fonts, it's because the X font model is different from
the Windows font model, and just isn't as flashy.  Since you mentioned
WordPerfect, I'll add that WP pretty much ignores the X font model and
uses its own instead.  You can read more about WP's fonts on my web site:
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~smithrod/wpfonts.html.

Quote:> Will it ever change?

Probably, but it'll be slow.  Even if some APIs came out tomorrow to
improve these matters, and even if everybody agrees these were Good
Things, there's still a huge installed base of programs that would need
to be changed.  Since this is **NOT** a Linux issue per se, but an X
Window System issue, it's not something that we in the Linux community
can tackle by ourselves.  The likes of Sun Microsystems, IBM, Silicon
Graphics, and others will all have to get together and agree on the new
protocols.  That said, there may be fixes for particular environments.  I
don't know if this is the case, but as a hypothetical for instance, KDE
might implement some sort of inter-application clipboard, but that
wouldn't do non-KDE programs much good.

--
Rod Smith

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~smithrod
Author of _Special Edition Using Corel WordPerfect 8 for Linux_, from Que

 
 
 

Will this ever change?

Post by George Vlahoul » Tue, 07 Sep 1999 04:00:00


On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 23:43:41 GMT, Rod Smith


>[Posted and mailed]



>> I have been using Linux for a few years.  

>> I consistently run into this situation:  I make a graphic in one
>> program, and I want to use it in another program.

>> In Windows, I copy and paste.  Done!
>...
>> But in Linux I must export some format that is compatible with the
>> destination program
>...
>> I can also not understand fonts in Linux.
>...
>> Why can Windows do this so well, and Linux (X Window System) can't?

>When "it" refers to cutting and pasting between applications, the cause is
>that Windows has a much better clipboard technology for cutting and
>pasting between applications.  This is part of Windows or the X Window
>system, and it's a set of tools that applications are invited to use.
>They generally do in Windows, but as the underlying tools are so crude in
>Linux, it just doesn't get used much, except for text.

Unfortunate but true.

Quote:>> Will it ever change?

>Probably, but it'll be slow.  Even if some APIs came out tomorrow to
>improve these matters, and even if everybody agrees these were Good
>Things, there's still a huge installed base of programs that would need
>to be changed.  Since this is **NOT** a Linux issue per se, but an X
>Window System issue, it's not something that we in the Linux community
>can tackle by ourselves.  The likes of Sun Microsystems, IBM, Silicon
>Graphics, and others will all have to get together and agree on the new
>protocols.  That said, there may be fixes for particular environments.  I
>don't know if this is the case, but as a hypothetical for instance, KDE
>might implement some sort of inter-application clipboard, but that
>wouldn't do non-KDE programs much good.

I dont think it will be slow. As more apps are created for linux pressure
will be put on the designers of X to improve the clipboard. Linux will
propably drive this change as its/will be the most popular and strongest
unix flavor. When other companies like IBM are rushing to provide support
for linux I dont think they will take too long to think about this. If people
demand it it will be fixed. And as a matter of fact, Xfree which is what
linux uses, doesnt give a **** what IBM says anyhow. Sun and IBM are
following Linux's footsteps at the moment so I dont think they will have
a choise in that either if they'll want to be compatible with linux.

gv

 
 
 

Will this ever change?

Post by Robert Helle » Tue, 07 Sep 1999 04:00:00



  In a message on 6 Sep 1999 14:25:40 GMT, wrote :

GV> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 23:43:41 GMT, Rod Smith
GV> >[Posted and mailed]
GV> >


GV> >> I have been using Linux for a few years.  
GV> >>
GV> >> I consistently run into this situation:  I make a graphic in one
GV> >> program, and I want to use it in another program.
GV> >>
GV> >> In Windows, I copy and paste.  Done!
GV> >...
GV> >> But in Linux I must export some format that is compatible with the
GV> >> destination program
GV> >...
GV> >> I can also not understand fonts in Linux.
GV> >...
GV> >> Why can Windows do this so well, and Linux (X Window System) can't?
GV> >
GV> >When "it" refers to cutting and pasting between applications, the cause is
GV> >that Windows has a much better clipboard technology for cutting and
GV> >pasting between applications.  This is part of Windows or the X Window
GV> >system, and it's a set of tools that applications are invited to use.
GV> >They generally do in Windows, but as the underlying tools are so crude in
GV> >Linux, it just doesn't get used much, except for text.
GV> >
GV>
GV> Unfortunate but true.
GV>
GV> >> Will it ever change?
GV> >
GV> >Probably, but it'll be slow.  Even if some APIs came out tomorrow to
GV> >improve these matters, and even if everybody agrees these were Good
GV> >Things, there's still a huge installed base of programs that would need
GV> >to be changed.  Since this is **NOT** a Linux issue per se, but an X
GV> >Window System issue, it's not something that we in the Linux community
GV> >can tackle by ourselves.  The likes of Sun Microsystems, IBM, Silicon
GV> >Graphics, and others will all have to get together and agree on the new
GV> >protocols.  That said, there may be fixes for particular environments.  I
GV> >don't know if this is the case, but as a hypothetical for instance, KDE
GV> >might implement some sort of inter-application clipboard, but that
GV> >wouldn't do non-KDE programs much good.
GV>
GV> I dont think it will be slow. As more apps are created for linux pressure
GV> will be put on the designers of X to improve the clipboard. Linux will
GV> propably drive this change as its/will be the most popular and strongest
GV> unix flavor. When other companies like IBM are rushing to provide support
GV> for linux I dont think they will take too long to think about this. If people
GV> demand it it will be fixed. And as a matter of fact, Xfree which is what
GV> linux uses, doesnt give a **** what IBM says anyhow. Sun and IBM are
GV> following Linux's footsteps at the moment so I dont think they will have
GV> a choise in that either if they'll want to be compatible with linux.

Actually the low-level hooks already exist to support this.  The main
problems are:

A) Messing with the clipboard (and the PRIMARY and SECONDARY selections)
is generally a pain under X, using the low-level XLib calls.

B) There is not a 'standard' way of dealing with graphics on the
clipboard, in the sense that applications don't have a consensus as to
what graphics formats to support and how *exactly* to support them.

Motif defines a high-level drag and drop protocol, but Motif is a beast
-- too big, slow, cumbersome, etc.  Also Motif is encumbered with
copyright restrictions.  (Yes, lesstif is also available as a freeware
clone of Motif.)

It should be easy enough to (conceptually) extract Motif's drag and drop
functionality and create a support library, with a layer that provides
a set of standardized translators and transfer handlers for the basic
set of graphics formats (eg. GIF, TIFF, Jpeg, xbm, xpm, pnm, etc.).  

Note: doing this as a library *layered* on top of stabdard X11 calls
would be portable and cross platform -- this is something that would
work both with XFree *and* with the X11 packages distributed with commercial
UNIX's (i.e. Solaris, DU, AIX, etc.).

GV>
GV>
GV> gv
GV>                                                        

--
                                     \/


http://www.deepsoft.com              /\FidoNet:    1:321/153

 
 
 

1. ever changing login password

hi,

is it possible to have an ever changing login password ? I would
like, for example, that each time someone logs on my system
(Debian GNU/Linux running) some random numbers appears and you have to
enter the *solution*. e.g.:

-for this session, numbers are: 3 6 2 1
-enter solution:
20
-solution is correct
-login:
root
-password:
Jkl7.a

and the solution is 20 because i decided, for example, that
when the first number is odd, the computation is (a*b+c)*d.

the following would be better (i mean, i would *really*
like to have exactly this happening when someone logs
to my system):

-for this session, numbers are: 5 2 1 4
-login:
root
-password:
44Jkl7.a
**

this last example would *simply* requires the modification
of the password file once per session. How should i do
this ?  (this would involve a file containing the plain
password being readable, would this introduce a security
problem ? anyway, if somebody manage to read a root only
readable file, security is f***ed up)
I know some C programming, some bash, not yet perl, ...

I don't want to reinvent the wheel (though i will if i
don't find a program that does exactly what i want :) so,
are there famous programs that do similar things (so i
can find some inspiration)?

Securitely yours,

        Bernie

--
r a s t a s a p p e r   aatt   h e m p s e e d   dotdot  c o m
"this email address is really valid, if you're anything
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"Whenever possible, steal code." -- Tom Duff

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