Very Computer

   I love Linux just as much as anyone, but let's be realistic. When I need
to use serious programs for serious work, I use Windows programs. At this
point there aren't many full featured programs like Mathematica,
Wordperfect, and others for Linux. Linux is good for other things, like
hacking. So to all those people who flamed the user who posted a message
about Windows, show me some of the programs that can run under Linux and
rival those run under Windows. And please don't try to compare GNU Plot or
Octave with Mathematica. Hopefully in the future when iBCS2 will be working
with most programs, and when WINE is released, I won't have to run Windows
anymore, but for now Linux is just an experiment on my machine.

Bogdan

Bogdan wrote :

Quote:>I love Linux just as much as anyone, but let's be realistic. When I need
>to use serious programs for serious work, I use Windows programs. At this
>point there aren't many full featured programs like Mathematica,
>Wordperfect, and others for Linux.

I can not agree. There are already many very good programs like Khoros,
Midas (an astronomical software for image and data processing) which run
only under Linux for my PC. I have to use Linux for these serious programs.

Hongguang BI    

:    I love Linux just as much as anyone, but let's be realistic. When I need
: to use serious programs for serious work, I use Windows programs. At this
: point there aren't many full featured programs like Mathematica,
: Wordperfect, and others for Linux. Linux is good for other things, like
: hacking. So to all those people who flamed the user who posted a message
: about Windows, show me some of the programs that can run under Linux and
: rival those run under Windows. And please don't try to compare GNU Plot or
: Octave with Mathematica. Hopefully in the future when iBCS2 will be working
: with most programs, and when WINE is released, I won't have to run Windows
: anymore, but for now Linux is just an experiment on my machine.

    Show me a properly manageable network with windows, and try to match
X. Don't worry to show me WordPerfect or things like that. You don't need
windows for that. Just use DOS counterparts :-). Seriously, I need X in
my programming sessions, not hacking the system, but scientific programming.
What new offers Mathematica in plotting that GnuPlot doesn't have? Other
than plotting I know, but I'm not likely to use it very much. If I need
to use maths, I usually need to do it many, many times ==> I make a program,
compile it, and then use it. No need for MAthematica. WP?? If I needed it,
I'll use the DOS version (now serious), or better Lotus Manuscript.
Nevertheless, I'm using TeX in writing my thesis. Again, Linux can do it,
and X is a big help with TeX. And for the networking: I can't open five
sessions in five different computers to see the progress of long runs with
Windows, can I (better said, with ease)? X and TCP/IP are perfectly useable
with Linux, in fact they are so standard that when something fails, it's
due to problems in the other machine. Can you tell me the same in Windows?

    Conclussion: Linux is not only for hackers. At least, there are
scientists. Probably more people (ask Mark Taylor), but I let them speak
for themselves.

: Bogdan

    Miguel

--
    Miguel Alvarez Blanco        |  "All that is gold does not glitter,

|>    I love Linux just as much as anyone, but let's be realistic. When I need
|> to use serious programs for serious work, I use Windows programs.

Well, this appears to be situation dependent, doesn't it? Clearly, if
you have a heavy workload and are used to servicing it with Windows stuff,
then you will have such a perspective. But for me the avenue is emacs
and TeX, without which I cannot write papers (mouse/menu driven programs
are no solution when you must frequently go in and out of math mode).

So beyond the _cost_ of all that Windows stuff, some of us cannot use our
PCs at all without Linux.

--
Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott                             The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik       odorless and transparent

Quote:>    Show me a properly manageable network with windows, and try to match
>X. Don't worry to show me WordPerfect or things like that. You don't need
>windows for that. Just use DOS counterparts :-). Seriously, I need X in
>my programming sessions, not hacking the system, but scientific programming.
>What new offers Mathematica in plotting that GnuPlot doesn't have?

   About a million different things!

Quote:>I'm using TeX in writing my thesis. Again, Linux can do it,
>and X is a big help with TeX.

  I'm also using TeX and*in Windows, and that distribution is FAR
better than any TeX distribution that comes with the current Linux
distributions. Hopefully there will be improvement in that area.

 And for the networking: I can't open five

Quote:>sessions in five different computers to see the progress of long runs with
>Windows, can I (better said, with ease)? X and TCP/IP are perfectly useable
>with Linux, in fact they are so standard that when something fails, it's
>due to problems in the other machine. Can you tell me the same in Windows?

  You are right here.

Quote:>    Conclussion: Linux is not only for hackers. At least, there are
>scientists. Probably more people (ask Mark Taylor), but I let them speak
>for themselves.

   I meant that I use it for hacking. Why should I bother making my own
little math programs or piecing together differnt math programs under Linux,
when I can use Mathematica for Windows, which is a standard here in the
physics dept. at Cornell, and in many other places.

 Bogdan

Quote:>Please don't start another big thread and another flamewar... From a
>terminal that you found logged on an account which isn't yours...

  Look, this is getting out if hand. It was never my intention to start any
flame war, but to put an end to one (ie the "I saw CHICAGO" posts).
Basically what was going on was that users were bashing on Windows entirely,
and in my messgae I tried to convey that Windows is not that useless and
unsatisfactory. I was, and am NOT trying to convince people to but
Mathematica for Windows or discourage them from developing Linux programs of
equal importance. I was merely stating why I need to use Windows and not
only Linux. My message was very general because I did not want to get into
specifics which are beside the point. When I said that I use Linux for
hacking, I think people interpreted that as saying that Linux is only good
for hacking. I realize that many users solely use Linux and that's fine, but
please don't try to trivialize the importance of Windows programs which some
of use Linux users, believe it or not, still use heavily, not becuase we
are "conditioned" to use Windows, but becuase at this time, for me at least,
there are no equivalent Linux programs.
    By the way, what does it matter whose account I post from anyway?? I was
posting from work if you need to know.

Bogdan      -No FLAME WAR INTENDED!!!

Quote:>When I need to use serious programs for serious work, I use
>Windows programs.  
>>What new offers Mathematica in plotting that GnuPlot doesn't have?
>   About a million different things!

Please be more precise in this point.

Quote:>>I'm using TeX in writing my thesis. Again, Linux can do it,
>>and X is a big help with TeX.
>  I'm also using TeX and*in Windows, and that distribution is FAR
>better than any TeX distribution that comes with the current Linux
>distributions. Hopefully there will be improvement in that area.

It is really an argueble point. What MS-Windows TeX/LaTeX "distribution" are
you talking about? It is "FAR better" than what kind of environment (editor,
graphic package, reference mananger etc) set to use TeX/LaTeX with Linux?
(don't forget that with Linux  you are not constrained to
the TeX stuff that comes with Slackware and others). If you are not
specific it is difficult to appreciate your points.

[part deleted]

Quote:>>    Conclussion: Linux is not only for hackers. At least, there are
>>scientists. Probably more people (ask Mark Taylor), but I let them speak
>>for themselves.
>   I meant that I use it for hacking. Why should I bother making my own
>little math programs or piecing together differnt math programs under Linux,
>when I can use Mathematica for Windows, which is a standard here in the
>physics dept. at Cornell, and in many other places.
> Bogdan

Bogdan, I think your messages would be more informative
if you instead of using expressions like "serious programs",
"serious work",  "About a million different things",
"FAR better", you qualify your points with facts and
concrete arguments. I think, in addition, that you
 should also consider in your analysis
the cost involved in both cases. Not everybody in the network
is in the physics dept at Cornell or is willing
to spend their own money to buy certain things because
they think the eventual benefits don't worth the extra
cost (or they don't have money to spend of this!).

The sort of argument
you used  is in general an invitation to lenghty and
frequently non productive religious discussions. With more
elaborate arguments I believe you would do at
least 2 useful things:

- Point out aspects that need to be incorporated in the existing
  public domain/free/gnu software to allow them to perform certain
  tasks that you perceive as important but are not
  currently available.

- Allow people in the network to point out solutions that
  you and others might not know about.

---

Actually, I didn't understand the question (you obviously did) - could one of
you explain ?

Quote:>  I'm also using TeX and*in Windows, and that distribution is FAR
>better than any TeX distribution that comes with the current Linux
>distributions. Hopefully there will be improvement in that area.

Fascinating (captain), in what ways is your distribution superior. What do
you feel that the Linux distribution omits ?

Quote:>   I meant that I use it for hacking. Why should I bother making my own
>little math programs or piecing together differnt math programs under Linux,
>when I can use Mathematica for Windows, which is a standard here in the
>physics dept. at Cornell, and in many other places.

I fair point. What is wrong with the unix version of Mathematica, though?
___

C++ consultant and emacs support. Mail me if you have any problems.

Nothing that a couple (ten? twenty?) grand for an individual license or
a site license won't fix.  Actually, I don't know about Mathematica for Unix
prices, just making a guess from similar price differences between other
packages available for DOS/Windows vs. Unix.

Actually, I love Mathematica for Unix, mainly because HP 9000/735 machines
(which I use) are far, far faster than any DOS/Mac machine out there :)

Mathematica for MS-Windows suffers, in my experience, from its operating
environment.  I have managed to crash DOS/Windows systems far too often
engaging in (to me) fairly mundane, although computationally intensive, tasks
to want to do any real work on them, unless forced by circumstance.  Mabye
its just me.  I lock X occasionally, but usually it happens whan I am
testing software.

In a similar matter, I can't imagine buying Mathematica for Linux even if
it existed, unless it was priced similarly to the DOS or MS-Windows version.
Simply a matter of bang for buck.  After all, I don't have to pay for it,
here.

-Ken

: >What new offers Mathematica in plotting that GnuPlot doesn't have?
:    About a million different things!

   In plotting? Really? Then there must be a new version that I didn't see ;)

:   I'm also using TeX and*in Windows, and that distribution is FAR
: better than any TeX distribution that comes with the current Linux
: distributions. Hopefully there will be improvement in that area.

    I hope so, but I don't rely on it. And nevertheless, I'm a vi die-hard
as it's said ;)

:    I meant that I use it for hacking. Why should I bother making my own
: little math programs or piecing together differnt math programs under Linux,
: when I can use Mathematica for Windows, which is a standard here in the
: physics dept. at Cornell, and in many other places.

    A standard, uh? You really mean that Quantum Chemical codes are little
math programs? You are speaking without knowing a word about it. Mathematica
can do many pretty things, that's true, but it can't do serious phisics.
There you must have a big standard program, like Gaussian, Gamess, ...
Sure, you can do as we've done, and construct our own code, but I won't call
a 10.000+ lines (not counting comments) code a little math program. And it's
getting a standard in solid state phisics now. At least, the Physical Review
is accepting papers with results from it. I haven't seen any paper (other
that testing some new integrals) using Mathematica there. And the best with
it is that most of the recent upgrades of this program were made at my
home computer, using Linux and X. I'll probably include Linus in my
aknowledgement list in the next paper ;)

    Please, get serious. There are a lot more in computers than OS
developing. There are many people (like me) that use computers, other than
the duality hacker/dumb Windows user. There are lots and lots of people
who work with unix, and linux has become their choose. Let's not talk
anymore about "Windows is best for anything except hacking". I have no
unix text tools in windows, and hear, I know how to use awk, grep, sed,
shell scripts, ... and I'm no hacker.

:  Bogdan

--
    Miguel Alvarez Blanco        |  "All that is gold does not glitter,

How can the distribution be any better?  My system has TeX and LaTeX, and
works perfectly!  What does the Windows version have that the linux/X
version does not?

Quote:>   I meant that I use it for hacking. Why should I bother making my own
>little math programs or piecing together differnt math programs under Linux,
>when I can use Mathematica for Windows, which is a standard here in the
>physics dept. at Cornell, and in many other places.

How about MathCAD, for that matter?  It's the _only_ reason that I have
windows installed on my DOS partition... :)  (patiently waiting for WINE)

Quote:> Bogdan

Robp

Quote:>:    I meant that I use it for hacking. Why should I bother making my own
>: little math programs or piecing together differnt math programs under Linux,
>: when I can use Mathematica for Windows, which is a standard here in the
>: physics dept. at Cornell, and in many other places.
>    A standard, uh? You really mean that Quantum Chemical codes are little
>math programs? You are speaking without knowing a word about it.

  Actually, I AM a physics student and I do use mathematica here at Cornell,
and so do most other physics students. I never said it was the ONLY program
that we use. Maybe you need to look up the word 'standard' in the
dictionary!

Quote:>    Please, get serious. There are a lot more in computers than OS
>developing. There are many people (like me) that use computers, other than
>the duality hacker/dumb Windows user. There are lots and lots of people
>who work with unix, and linux has become their choose. Let's not talk
>anymore about "Windows is best for anything except hacking". I have no
>unix text tools in windows, and hear, I know how to use awk, grep, sed,
>shell scripts, ... and I'm no hacker.

    You obviously misread my message, as I never said anything bad or
stereotypical about the Linux user. Besides, my message was misenterpreted
all along. One user who replied to my post was right, in saying that the
typical Linux user gets paranoid and self defensive when he sees the word
Windows!

Bogdan

:   Actually, I AM a physics student and I do use mathematica here at Cornell,
: and so do most other physics students. I never said it was the ONLY program
: that we use. Maybe you need to look up the word 'standard' in the
: dictionary!

   Ok, what are you talking about? What serious research have you done
with it? Standard for somethings, I admitted, but it's not THE mathematics
program. At least, there are many more things which cannot be done with
it on a reasonable time.

:     You obviously misread my message

   Probably

: , as I never said anything bad or
: stereotypical about the Linux user. Besides, my message was misenterpreted
: all along. One user who replied to my post was right, in saying that the
: typical Linux user gets paranoid and self defensive when he sees the word
: Windows!

   Surely, I do ;)

   Now seriously, I didn't said that nobody should use Windows, but I'm
saying that many people MUST use Linux (or some other flavour of UNIX) in
order to be productive in their works, or, like me and many other people,
work and home (how many of you haven't got work home with Linux?). It's
just that what I want to remark, that Linux is not only for hackers, it's
for everyone that needs/likes UNIX, and can't/don't want to spend lots of
money buying a workstation (or worse, whose Department hasn't money to buy
more than a PC!). Linux is for everyone that uses it, since it's free!

: Bogdan

--
    Miguel Alvarez Blanco        |  "All that is gold does not glitter,