Very Computer

Let me tell you I give up. After 3 solid weeks trying to set up a linux
system I finally submit to the fact that  me and Linux do not get on. I have
been installing novell & Win networks as a job for 9 years but wow what a
shock I got from Linux. It's like trying to learn to program in C with no
manual or source code to compare. Even a simple job like installing a new
program is sometimes impossible. So goodbye Linux and goodbye smug Linux
users.

Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that considering the huge numbers of
folks using Linux now (and the inroads being make in corporate American)
that there may be a problem with *your* end - perhaps it's the hardware,
the version/type of Linux you tried, any number of other things.  But I
wouldn't say that Linux, per se, sucks.
--
Pierre A. von Kaenel
Math & Computer Science Dept.
Skidmore College
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866

mmmm....  with thousands of non-CNE's non-programmers successfully
installing various disro's of Linux every day you don't imagine that it
could be you, could you?  Na...

I'll bet you brought an attitude ("I've been installing...for 9
years...") to the task and felt you were "wise" enough to install Linux
with only a minimal or no reading of the docs and readmes.  As a retired
teacher of 18 years I've seen bright students like you suffer failure
attempting a task and because of pride refuse to admit they needed help.

Goodbye... come back when you are willing to learn....

Do not give up. Ask on the newsgroups. comp.os.linux.misc is a great
resource, use it. All these problems you are having are common ones,
and chances are, someone else asked and it was answered.

I used proprietory Unix for years and years. Finally, I switched to Linux,
and I cannot imagine using something else.

Now, when I have to work on Miscrosoft products... Windows, I am totally
lost. I do not know anything about it. I just do not care. Life is too
short to waste on non-Unix software. Windows and everything else is such a
pain. They do not exist for me.

No other operating system has as many tools as Unix.  grep, sed, vi, cut,
find commands combined together are a very good tool. Plus Perl, emacs -
the list goes on and on. I really do appreciate Unix and specifically
Linux.

If you do not want to install it yourself, that is fine. Just get a
pre-installed one, I liked www.aslab.com. Quality components, I recommend
them even though they accidently send me a sound card instead of a
modem. :)

Well good bye then.

Just one thing I would like to know: What is the aim of your posting? I
mean, why do you feel the urge to tell us that you can't make the thing
work? It is not like you are asking any questions about how you may get
"unstuck" in your installation attempts.

I sense that you feel that the documentation on the installation
procedure was somehow inadequate. If that is the case, you must have
done a really poor job at searching for information. The net is full of
it, and if you have specific questions, that you can't find the answer
to on your own hand, this very news group is an excellent help.

Sorry about being smug. Nobody is perfect, but I do have the ability to
install new programs on my Linux box. Had you only asked how to go about
it, I would gladly have helped, free of charge.

--

  (\        Best regards,        /)
-||||8-          Tim          -8||||-
  (/      2B OR NOT 2B = FF      \)

Quote:> Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that considering the huge numbers of
> folks using Linux now (and the inroads being make in corporate American)
> that there may be a problem with *your* end - perhaps it's the hardware,
> the version/type of Linux you tried, any number of other things.  But I
> wouldn't say that Linux, per se, sucks.
> --
> Pierre A. von Kaenel
> Math & Computer Science Dept.
> Skidmore College
> Saratoga Springs, NY 12866

the problem isn't linux ... the problem is people buying WINHARDWARE and
then complaining cause they can't do much with their hardware.

-= Linux is the OS =-
from an EX windows user

hum.. I've leared much more new stuffs in linux than in 3 - 4 years with
Windows and I really like linux.
Maybe you should get a book, read more and don't hesitate to ask questions.
Usually windows users have difficulties using linux/unix because they don't
know how to use available ressources.
manual pages/books/newsgroups/irc ................ and much much more
by the way I'm working for the gov. and I'm the only one who has a LINUX
workstation in a 100% Microsoft network.
And I like it. While I see others reboot 24/24 I have the mostt stable, fastest
and coolest workstation.

Quote:> Just one thing I would like to know: What is the aim of your posting? I
> mean, why do you feel the urge to tell us that you can't make the thing
> work? It is not like you are asking any questions about how you may get
> "unstuck" in your installation attempts.

NB:  I am trying to speak for him, and I am only guessing at his intentions

As Linux is making a push to be more end-user friendly (which you may or may not
agree with) it is important to realize that it is a big transition from a non
*nix OS.  We (as Linux users) do tend to be smug and try to change people to be
linux users (and even geeks) when our efforts should be to make make Linux work
better (and I am not accusing you of this, but I have noticed linux users of that
are of this attitude).  If people are going to come to Linux, simple things
should be made very easy.  (ex.  I can't connect to the internet, how do I post
to newsgroups to get answers and / or search the online how-tos).  Personally, as
someone who has converted to Linux in the past couple months, I feel that the
documentation is 'out there' but sometimes I have to ask my friend where at.  To
be honest, I didn't even have a clue how to use newsgroups 4 months ago.  Linux
does require some research and a lot more effort than Windows.  If you use
Windows, you must be very familiar with automatically hitting 'next' all the way
through a wizard and only changing one thing the whole way:  View the readme to
no.  Now I can't imagine compiling something without 'less Install'.  In summary,
it takes a level of investigation and reading that is a lot more extensive than
for Windows / Mac (Ok, he said he also used Novell, but I honestly have NO
experience with Novell, so I can't relate).  Thus, installing and using Linux is
a bit of a project, and a lot of people don't realize that this is so.  There
needs to be a definitive resource that will direct people to all the other
resources, and the importance of this resource needs to be 'screamed' to the user
during first bootup, install, or some necessary step.

Quote:> Sorry about being smug. Nobody is perfect, but I do have the ability to
> install new programs on my Linux box. Had you only asked how to go about
> it, I would gladly have helped, free of charge.

I hope you don't take this as a flame, but as a serious answer to your question.
Your attidute is definetly helpful and is why linux users have such a great
reputation for helping there own.  I think it is just a matter of making it easy
to find help and resources that needs addresed.

Michael Benedict

On 13 Feb 1999 11:32:49 +0800,

Last weekend, I went into work to copy a gig or so of archives and other
junk off an old SS2 of mine onto the Windows machine that has a
CD-burner.  I figured it was a two or three hour task.

First problem: when I started FTP'ing the files, I was getting
8Kbytes/sec.  A whopping 64kbps.   I called the owner of the Windows
machine and asked why his machine was so damned slow.  (This is a 10Mbps
ethernet, which gets typical peak traffic of maybe 64kbps used.  64kbps
max throughput is slow to say the least.)

It turns out the stock Win98 install decided that since he had a modem
it should 'optimize' itself for modem connections, using ridiculously
small MTU's and buffers.  I had to download software to fix that.  (Or
wait 32 hours while it transferred the files: not acceptable. :))

Then I found that the FTP client installed on the machine didn't want to
copy several hundred files: it would get part way through the transfer
and just stop.  I would tell it to copy again, and then it would copy
one more file and stop.  Sometimes it didn't copy at all and just
created a 0k file.

So I decidied what the heck, lets just do it multi-session, and copy the
files to CD in clumps of a couple hundred, rebooting after each clump,
since that was the only way to get it in a state where it would complete
the FTP.

I copied the first clump, then ran the CD recording software: it
complained that a DLL wasn't found and exited.  I ran it again: this
time it found the DLL it didn't find before, then told me I didn't have
a CD burner.  So I exited and ran it a third time and it found it.

The second batch of files to copy kept aborting (like it didn't like
things starting with the letter 'n') and truncating things randomly, so
I had to keep wiping the directory and starting over.

I did finally solve the problem: I went home and wrote to ASLAB and
ordered another Linux box, this one with a CD burner.  (They usually
ship ZIP drives, but I opted for removing that and replacing it with a
TEAC burner.)

Quote:> No other operating system has as many tools as Unix.  grep, sed, vi, cut,
> find commands combined together are a very good tool. Plus Perl, emacs -
> the list goes on and on. I really do appreciate Unix and specifically
> Linux.

And you don't have to spend hours fighting with your tools.  After last
weekend, and the wasted hours of trying to do something as simple as
FTP'ing a bunch of files, I remember why I love Unix so much.  You have
dozens of tools and they all work.

Got a few hundred .zip files (long story why they're not tarballs :))
and want to verify that they are all valid?  Easy:

foreach file ( *.zip)
    unzip -t $file >& /dev/null
    if ( $? ) then
        echo $file is broken
    endif
end

(So sue me, I use csh :))

I can create handy-dandy tools of my own on the fly!

I love Unix.

The tools work, the tools work with each other, things do precisely what
you tell them to do.

It's the 'erector set' of operating systems. :)

Quote:> If you do not want to install it yourself, that is fine. Just get a
> pre-installed one, I liked www.aslab.com. Quality components, I recommend
> them even though they accidently send me a sound card instead of a
> modem. :)

I should get my new system on Monday. :)  I'll be using my current modem
and monitor on the new system, but picked up an additional NIC to put
into my existing system to start working on my home LAN.  (May even get
motivated enough to get my old Sun3's and SS1 online here.... start
putting computers in the bathroom. :))

When I told the owner of the Windows machine that I ordered a system to
do the job his system couldn't and that I wasn't getting Windows, he
insisted I would get it anyway.  I had to explain that ASL doesn't ship
Windows unless you pay for it, and I had not asked for it. :)

(Okay, usually I don't spend money so freely, but I'd been planning on
buying a system from ASL for some time and putting it off until I
figured out where I'd -put- it in my computer museum... but Windows was
so frustrating that I couldn't put it off any longer.)

--
Brian Moore                       | "The Zen nature of a spammer resembles
      Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker     |  a*roach, except that the*roach
      Usenet Vandal               |  is higher up on the evolutionary chain."
      Netscum, Bane of Elves.                 Peter Olson, Delphi Postmaster

Geez, guy, even *journalists* are installing Linux without trouble now.

Dave Cook

[Posted and mailed, snipped for brevity, quoted material marked with
">"]

Quote:>the problem isn't linux ... the problem is people buying WINHARDWARE and
>then complaining cause they can't do much with their hardware.

Nay nay, a thousand times nay!  The problem is people expecting Linux
to install like Winblows.  They expect everything to be done for them,
they are not used to being able to take care of themselves because big
brother bill doesn't make that possible in the Windblows arena.  They
get frustrated and leave because the Linux doc isn't very good, and
because in some senses it is catch-22 (can only read the install doc
if you have an installed system to read it on blah blah).  Unless
they're either persistent or lucky.  Or both.  The number of hardware
components that are Linux-unfriendly is pretty limited as far as I
know; I've certainly not had any insurmountable problems with my old
hardware to date.  I did however have to undergo a significant
paradigm shift when moving from Windblows to Linux.  Not that I'm
totally moved yet.
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