OT: Why Java?

OT: Why Java?

Post by blake_dav.. » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:11:26



I work at a Bank.  Every outdated old ass app built on
some crappy backend or whatever is now being ported
to be a web app running on new Sun systems.

Basically..you login to a web page, do your work there and
instead of having 10 different client instsalls on your desktop
you just need 1 handy copy of IE.  It's an innovative idea
here even though the rest of the industry figured this out
6yrs ago.

Now I'm all for running shiny new Solaris systems because I
enjoy being a Solaris admin.  What I don't understand is
everyone having such a * for Java.

What on earth does it add other than complexity in profiling
performance problems?                              

I would say that probably 95% of the projects being greenlighted
for next year are all Java based and not ONE OF THEM couldn't
be done in PHP.

Just think of all the money saved in licensing costs for those
crappy java app servers (Hello IBM!) & the big iron needed to
run the crappy app servers.

I don't get it.  If Yahoo can convert to php and work so well,
you'd think these crappy companies can.

I can't complain too much because these crappy companies keep
me well fed.  

End rant.

-Blakester

oh wait...the RANT IS COMING BACK.  I just got an e-mail explaining
why they chose Java over PHP:

        - support for single sign on (ooohh, i bet this is impossible
        in php!)
        - support for LDAP (again...probably impossible with any other
        language since LDAP is so proprietary).
        - security
        - the reliability of WebSphere


 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by S.Chan » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:17:56



> I work at a Bank.  Every outdated old ass app built on
> some crappy backend or whatever is now being ported
> to be a web app running on new Sun systems.

> Basically..you login to a web page, do your work there and
> instead of having 10 different client instsalls on your desktop
> you just need 1 handy copy of IE.  It's an innovative idea
> here even though the rest of the industry figured this out
> 6yrs ago.

> Now I'm all for running shiny new Solaris systems because I
> enjoy being a Solaris admin.  What I don't understand is
> everyone having such a * for Java.

> What on earth does it add other than complexity in profiling
> performance problems?                              

> I would say that probably 95% of the projects being greenlighted
> for next year are all Java based and not ONE OF THEM couldn't
> be done in PHP.

> Just think of all the money saved in licensing costs for those
> crappy java app servers (Hello IBM!) & the big iron needed to
> run the crappy app servers.

> I don't get it.  If Yahoo can convert to php and work so well,
> you'd think these crappy companies can.

> I can't complain too much because these crappy companies keep
> me well fed.  

> End rant.

> -Blakester

> oh wait...the RANT IS COMING BACK.  I just got an e-mail explaining
> why they chose Java over PHP:

>    - support for single sign on (ooohh, i bet this is impossible
>    in php!)
>    - support for LDAP (again...probably impossible with any other
>    language since LDAP is so proprietary).
>    - security
>    - the reliability of WebSphere



Maybe it's because there is a Java Certification from Sun, and as far as
I know, there isn't a certification just for PHP.
This is just my opinion.
Situation of Java reminds me of the case of MCSE, there were a few of
them, so they can demand a lot as salary, then few years later, the
sales work in my local computer shop is an MCSE.

S.Chang

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Rich Tee » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:27:56



Quote:

> Basically..you login to a web page, do your work there and
> instead of having 10 different client instsalls on your desktop
> you just need 1 handy copy of IE.  It's an innovative idea

Even Internet Exploder isn't "needed"; any reasonably modern
browser will work just fine.  :-)

Quote:> What on earth does it add other than complexity in profiling
> performance problems?

Cross platform compatibility, scalability, security.

Quote:> I would say that probably 95% of the projects being greenlighted
> for next year are all Java based and not ONE OF THEM couldn't
> be done in PHP.

How many application servers use PHP natively?

Quote:> Just think of all the money saved in licensing costs for those
> crappy java app servers (Hello IBM!) & the big iron needed to
> run the crappy app servers.

Well, Sun's licensing costs are $100 per employee.  Not too
bad in my book...

As for more detailed answers, I'm not the best qualified person
to answer, so I'll let someone with more experience do the job.

>    - the reliability of WebSphere



Agreed; I'm sure the SunONE Application Server is much more
reliable.  :-)

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Will Hartun » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:47:35



Quote:> Now I'm all for running shiny new Solaris systems because I
> enjoy being a Solaris admin.  What I don't understand is
> everyone having such a * for Java.

> What on earth does it add other than complexity in profiling
> performance problems?

> I would say that probably 95% of the projects being greenlighted
> for next year are all Java based and not ONE OF THEM couldn't
> be done in PHP.

One reason is that Java has VAST support in the professional and commercial
space. If you don't like Suns app server, you can use any of at least 10
more. If you're unhappy with the feature set or support of PHP then...umm...

If you don't like Sun ONE Studio, you can have your pick of another 1/2
dozen IDEs from minor players such as IBM, Oracle, and Borland.

Massive Open Source support from Appservers, to Expert Systems, to
templating etc.

With Java your application folks need to learn a single language and
methodology. You can write your front end processing code in the same
language as the back end processing code. This includes the stuff on the web
tier as well as the transaction heavy stuff in the back end.

For those who wish something besides Java, you can write in any of several
languages like Python or Scheme, but I'd argue against it. Why fragment your
coder base. But it's available.

With the J2EE servers Connector architecture and Transaction APIs, you have
a clean interface to connect up to your legacy systems and databases. Very
handy for transitional systems. Of course, I'm sure that you can use PHPs
Transaction Manager..oh..wait...never mind.

Your Bank can call Sun or several others and get solid BIG Java references
as to how the platform works, how it scales, etc. This helps a lot in the
corporate "comfort" factor.

Java and the J2EE space is well documented, and has corporate training
available for it. Several Best Practices are showing up for the J2EE
platform. They're not all money grubbing brain dead consultants, there are
some smart folks sharing a lot of knowledge based on this platform.

Integration with the Java Messenger Service lets the J2EE architecture
interface well in to legacy workflow systems, or can be used for to develop
new ones for applications that work better that way.

Java allows developers to use modern coding techniques and practices. You
name the buzzword or methodology du jour, and it's supported in Java.
Procedural, Object Oriented, Aspect Oriented, Annotated Programming, Generic
programming, etc.

With Suns new licensing model, the licensing and support of this
infrastructure scales with the size of the company and not the size of the
customer base. This makes adding hardware for scaling simply the cost of
hardware, which is directly competetive with the Open Source model, yet its
still supported by a professional support organization.

This is wonderful for a bank, particularly one focused on driving customer
support to automated systems vs tellers.

Of course, your Bank need not choose Sun at all for any of it. You can get
JVM, IDEs, Application Servers, and hardware from several vendors. You can
have an entire Java application without a Sun logo visible anywhere. You can
have an entire application and not pay a dime. Basically, just about every
major IT firm supports Java, save Microsoft. Nothing draws a crowd like a
crowd.

Java can basically do pretty much anything PHP can do, and more, all within
the same environment, all in a well understood environment. I'm not saying
it's not a complicated environment, it certainly is. But it's getting easier
every day because of the wide range for support from large, motivated
companies pushing the edge and expanding the platform as well as the HUGE
user base.

Through legacy integration, to web apps, web services, cutting edge
development methodologies, and enormous industy support, Java is a very
powerful, performant platform, especially for larger projects. It's only
competitor is Microsoft in the corporate space, and they're fighting tooth
and nail against it.

Regards,

Will Hartung

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Rich Tee » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:12:41



> powerful, performant platform, especially for larger projects. It's only
> competitor is Microsoft in the corporate space, and they're fighting tooth
> and nail against it.

... And losing, evidently.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Phil Brow » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:04:28



> Now I'm all for running shiny new Solaris systems because I
> enjoy being a Solaris admin.  What I don't understand is
> everyone having such a * for Java.

> What on earth does it add other than complexity in profiling
> performance problems?                              

> I would say that probably 95% of the projects being greenlighted
> for next year are all Java based and not ONE OF THEM couldn't
> be done in PHP.

java by itself, is a good thing.
java servlets, are even fairly efficient.

on the other hand, java jsp/xsp through a "connector", talking to "forte"
tweaked code, leveraging EJB for XML and XSTL...

bad... bad...

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Logan Sha » Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:25:48



> Now I'm all for running shiny new Solaris systems because I
> enjoy being a Solaris admin.  What I don't understand is
> everyone having such a * for Java.

> What on earth does it add other than complexity in profiling
> performance problems?                              

> I would say that probably 95% of the projects being greenlighted
> for next year are all Java based and not ONE OF THEM couldn't
> be done in PHP.

I guess my first question would be what is wrong with Java.

As others have mentioned, Java is very well supported.  It's easy
to hire competent Java programmers.  It's a mainstream language.
PHP isn't exactly fringe, but I'd say Java is more popular.

Java probably wins in the area of scalability.  I've never
used them personally, but supposedly once you move past the point
where one server will do it for you, there are all kinds of toolkits
that can handle automatically distributing the various tiers of
the work between servers.  As far as I know, a given PHP app has
to run everything on one machine, or the app has to have custom
support for cooperating across machines, or everything persistent
has to be stored in a database.

Also, in what sense is it easier to profile performance problems
for PHP than it is for Java?

   - Logan

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Philip Brow » Mon, 17 Nov 2003 04:29:09



>...
> As others have mentioned, Java is very well supported.  It's easy
> to hire competent Java programmers.  It's a mainstream language.
> PHP isn't exactly fringe, but I'd say Java is more popular.

popular does not automatically equate to that statement. It might even mean
the reverse. there are more incompetant people trying to scam off it.
 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by blake_dav.. » Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:46:00



> Cross platform compatibility, scalability, security.

Cross platform is handled by a web browser.  The web
browser shouldn't care if it's a java servlet/php/perl
or even active server pages on the other end.

Quote:> How many application servers use PHP natively?

Why does one need an app server?  I can survey my company and am
hard pressed to find any website running that requires Java
and I believe that this is the case in many other companies
too.

Running Java on the server end just seems to be wasteful IMO.
App server licensing is expensive, analyzing performance prolems
in java code is time consuming.

Quote:> Agreed; I'm sure the SunONE Application Server is much more
> reliable.  :-)

My bigotry and affection for Sun ends with Solaris & Sparc :-).

-Blakester

 
 
 

OT: Why Java?

Post by Phil Brow » Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:04:18



> Running Java on the server end just seems to be wasteful IMO.
> App server licensing is expensive,

there is more than one free java "application server" program out there.

Quote:> analyzing performance prolems
> in java code is time consuming.

and analysing performance problems in another language isn't?
If you write multilevel, multi-object code to service a single page, then
it is going to be difficult to debug. If you dont, it should be ideally
straightforward. THis is true reguardless of the language you choose to
use for dynamic pages.
 
 
 

1. Java, Java, Java, Java, Java, Java .....

In the systems being developed here, everything is coded in Java. There
are about 100 Java applications each running its own virtual machine.

I'm supposed to work with test and performance analysis of these systems
and I'm using tools that log system behaviour on process level.

The problem is that all I see is 100 processes named Java with some
small variations in command line parameters.

Is there a safe way to alter the process names either at startup or at
runtime ?
What could be the consequences of doing such a thing ?

//Hans Hagberg

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3. Why is java so slow on a SPARC 10/30 running Java 1.2

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5. Slightly OT: Sun Java Creator2 now available

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7. O.T. Forte Java Debugger in Solaris?

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9. O.T. Ollie explains the WTC incident in detail - Why it happened.

10. OT: Why is it that...

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12. java/47447: linux-sun-jdk1.4.1: java command can't find java.lang.Object