Very Computer

I have over two hundred 8088 computers. Each with 640K ram, one 720kb
floppy drive and NO hard disk drive.  I'd like to use a Linux box as a
file server to these DOS stations. However, I can't get enough of
MS-Client 3.0 on the 720kb floppy to boot. The 8088 will run simple
DOS programs in a classroom setting. Really can't afford to replace
all the systems at once. Local Microsoft Solution Providers want us to
buy a Pentium II Windows NT server and all new Win95 workstations.
Money to replace 200 computer we don't have. Anyone have a way to
rescue the 8088 computers?

Couple of thoughts (caveat emptor) ...

1)  You could try running one of the "lite" versions of Linux (Caldera has
one I think..) but this would require you to have a hard disk added to one
of 8088 in order to set it up as the server.  You may also want to
investigate an older version of the OS due to the higher memory
requirements on today's versions...

2)  Go to a local reseller or computer show and buy a bunch of used NE2000
compatible Ethernet NIC cards (if you don't have them already) and link the
systems together.

3)  Install bootp, tftp and nfs on your Linux server.  Setup directories
for the diskless nodes.

4)  Setup diskless Linux for the remainder of the 8088 by creating boot
disks or having boot prom chips created for their ethernet cards.  

5)  Bring up the clinet nodes and have them run dosemu utility to run dos
programs...

Anyways, thats just a thought...

Quote:> I have over two hundred 8088 computers. Each with 640K ram, one 720kb
> floppy drive and NO hard disk drive.  I'd like to use a Linux box as a
> file server to these DOS stations. However, I can't get enough of
> MS-Client 3.0 on the 720kb floppy to boot. The 8088 will run simple
> DOS programs in a classroom setting. Really can't afford to replace
> all the systems at once. Local Microsoft Solution Providers want us to
> buy a Pentium II Windows NT server and all new Win95 workstations.
> Money to replace 200 computer we don't have. Anyone have a way to
> rescue the 8088 computers?

Hi Everybody,

Never got Linux running on an XT !!!! Even on 640K it doesn't work. Keep DOS in
place. v3.3 is most suitable as it doesn't eat up all memory. v5.0 is also a
good choice.
But the other ideas are good. When booting over the network, you can stuff more
than 720K in your boot image, so all the necessary tools can be included, and
will be a lot faster and more relaible than a floppydrive.
Why use MS Client ? PC NFS is not bad also ! I don't know if there is free
package for linking DOS boxes to a linux box.

Good luck.

Pascal

Hi Jim,

Take a look at the etherboot-package. Seems you have allready
network-cards for the clients. This way can remote-boot DOS. Another
package of interest could be a NFS-client for DOS (pcnfs?) as this would
enable you to put additional software on the hdd of the linux box.

Malware

Hi aallen,

The only Linux version for 8088 I know of is ELKS and this one is next
to useless in it's current state.

Quote:> 5)  Bring up the clinet nodes and have them run dosemu utility to run dos
> programs...

This is a though but the dosemu should run on the server and the clients
could run a telnet to connect to. I think a second or even more servers
could be of interest as I doubt it can keep up with running 200 dosemu's
a time.

Malware

: I have over two hundred 8088 computers. Each with 640K ram, one 720kb
: floppy drive and NO hard disk drive.  I'd like to use a Linux box as a
: file server to these DOS stations. However, I can't get enough of
: MS-Client 3.0 on the 720kb floppy to boot. The 8088 will run simple
: DOS programs in a classroom setting. Really can't afford to replace
: all the systems at once. Local Microsoft Solution Providers want us to
: buy a Pentium II Windows NT server and all new Win95 workstations.
: Money to replace 200 computer we don't have. Anyone have a way to
: rescue the 8088 computers?
:
Use them as VT100 terminals?  Assuming you have some form of network
card and the appropriate wiring, then all you need is:

 1. MS-DOS Kermit:

      http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/mskermit.html

 2. The packet driver appropriate to your network card.

If you don't have network cards and wiring, then you can use the serial
ports.  But since your Linux server doesn't have 200 serial ports, you'd
need to install a rather large terminal server to connect all the 8088s
to the Linux server.

This approach limits you to a text-only (plus Tektronix and Sixel graphics)
environment, and allows access only to applications that run on Linux, but
it has the distinct advantage of centralized management.  One standard
boot + applications floppy for each 8088, and then all the configuration,
management, etc, is done on the one Linux server.

- Frank

Why don't you use it as an application server, too?  Here is my
suggestion, and I have done such a thing, making miracles of 808(6|8)s.
Follow me through with this, and you might get what you need:

Quote:> Local Microsoft Solution Providers want us to buy a Pentium II Windows
> NT server

Well, you SHOULD get a VERY hefty Linux server.  I would consider a
dual-quad processor with at least 512 mb of RAM.  Now, this of course will

be a little costly, but it will provide DOS to these 8088s.  What you need

to do is get DOSEMU (the Linux DOS emulator) running on the Linux machine,

and install a multi-port serial card which can handle 128 or 256 serial
connections.  What you can now do is through an ANSI, VT100, or `telnet'
session to the Linux server from the 8088s running these terminal
emulators, give the 8088s `virtual' DOS via DOSEMU once they connect.
This manages ALL applications on one spot (the Linux server) and provides
for ``virtually native'' DOS applications throughout your whole serial
network.

--
J. S. Jensen

http://www.paramin.com

: I have over two hundred 8088 computers. Each with 640K ram, one 720kb
: floppy drive and NO hard disk drive.  I'd like to use a Linux box as a
: file server to these DOS stations. However, I can't get enough of
: MS-Client 3.0 on the 720kb floppy to boot. The 8088 will run simple
: DOS programs in a classroom setting. Really can't afford to replace
: all the systems at once. Local Microsoft Solution Providers want us to
: buy a Pentium II Windows NT server and all new Win95 workstations.
: Money to replace 200 computer we don't have. Anyone have a way to
: rescue the 8088 computers?

Some disordered thoughts (following replies from others):

I assume these machines have network cards in them?  I'd look at PC-NFS
for file/print access (although I have heard of Y2K probs with some
bits) rather than MS-Client.  Not sure how expensive it is, or if it
works with old versions of DOS.

If you want telnet access, kermit for dos is probably the thing to use,
or if you want to lean towards unix, Minix is a nice small 16-bit OS.
(http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html)   Free for educational uses,
proper networking, not sure if it handles nfs mounts. (Also check
hardware)  Mainstream linux only runs on 386 & up.

Running DOSEMU on your server is a possiblility, but beware - many DOS
programs don't save any cycles and just sit there churning away, so with
200 people using programs your load average will be 200.  Test this out
carefully! http://www.ednet.ns.ca/%7Emacleajb/dosemu.html

Longer term, contact any big businesses in your area, ask them if they are
throwing out any 386/486 machines.  If so, get them to throw them in your
direction, in return for publicity etc.

Good luck,

        Geoff
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever sit and watch ants? They're always busy with                Geoff Short

can't identify with that kind of work ethic. http://kipper.york.ac.uk/~geoff

If you just want to share files, how about running Mars (Netware File
Server Emulation) on the Linux box, and NetX or VLM on the workstations?

--

                                '65 Monza - '94 Saturn SL2

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:30:18 GMT,

Whenever you ask a MSP it tends to become rather expensive...
I suggest to use a DOS with built in network support.
There once was Netware lite... hasn't that become Novell DOS later?
It ran IPX, so you simply have to setup your Linux box as a netware server.

Regards
Michael

--
Unix soit qui mal y pense.

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:39:09 +0200, Pascal Fleer

So I make the DOS boot floppies. Then use PC NFS to connect to the
Linux box. The Linux box would have the DOS applications and provide
print services.  Not sure about PC NFS but I'm off to research it now.
Thanks.

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:51:18 -0600, "J. S. Jensen"

All the computers have NE2000 compatible NICs. Don't see how the
serial device is going to help in this instance. I can get all the
machine going peer-to-peer with Lantastic; however, I am trying to
showcase Linux.  Thanks for your suggestion. Seems like a good idea if
I did not already have the NICs.

All the better bandwidth wise, just use a client DOS telnet to the Linux
server.  I guess I am just an old Big Iron guy.

--
J. S. Jensen

http://www.paramin.com

        Umm. I am in the same boat here myself. I tried to install the
Msdos version of Telnet NCSA TElnet, but my problem is getting a working
8bit card. my Artisoft Ae/2c card's even in 8bit mode DO NOT work in ne2000
mode of the Cryware packet drivers. BTW is there a packet driver for the
ARtisoft AE/2c card in Native 8bit Artisoft mode? Otherwise even my XTs
are stuck as dumb terminals and I am out of serial ports on the Linux
machine. I DO have Coax setup already for my network 50 Ohm RG 58 with the
proper 50 Ohm terminators on both ends of the line.
        My card LOCK up the XT system. BTW. on my system Yes I read the Net-3
HOWTO already.
Heres what I try to do
1. SEt Artisoft card(s) to 8bit Ne2000 emulaton on the XT. and 16 bit
emulation on the 486. bus on 486 is set for 8mhz (as recomended in how to).
2 set using ifconfig
ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
to enable the server address
route add -net 192.168.0.0
route add -host 192.168.0.1
Now the XT was set up with the cryware packet drivers. I type
3. ping 192.168.0.2
and watch the XT lock right up..
do I need to add route add -host 192.168.0.2 also? (the XT's address)
        Has anyone else had this problem? how did you solve it?
--
                                B'ichela
When a Klingon  goes to Linux.  It means one must respect the Klingons
pride and honorable decision to work their  computers to their fullest
potential.
        Linux is Proudly displayed  to all my friends. and I help  get
others going  on this powerful  alternative to the  watered down mush
served by Microslop.

Don't give up on the MS Client.  Some time ago someone posted that
they had a list of the files you need to boot up and that they had
gotten them to fit on a 720K floppy.  You need a machine with a
hard drive to do an initial install, then just copy then necessary
items over to the floppy.  I can't find the reference now, but you
can probably figure out the necessary files if none of the search
engines will dig it up.   Your worst problem will be the limited
memory after loading the client software.  You might be better off
running a netware client and running mars_nwe on the server.

  Les Mikesell