Very Computer

Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun. Cracked open a couple of beers, and
installed and drank till 4am. Got the network running, played with the
browser. Played around in KDE.
But this is way to much to ask from most users. Of course, I say to hell
with people who can't pick up a manual. But at the same time, if linux is to
spread, this is not going to help. These "fun things" equate to "painful,
hopeless, panic, etc. things" for many people.

Anyways, I am documenting my progress, and might make a "newbie guide" since
I didn't find one. I found lots of basic shell explanation. Windows users
don't want shells. They don't even know what a DOS shell is, never mind a
real shell.
So my next fun thing is to get the Java Plugin to run in
Netscape/Mozilla/Konqueror ... no luck so far, this is very bad for Java.

Is there in fact a complete newbies guide out there, or would this be a good
thing. I think I am not the only one to realize that Wordpad functionality
is ok for most tasks, and Visicalc functionality is enough for most
spreadsheet tasks! I don't want to be stuffed with XP for the rest of my
life. Neither do others. This is a perfect chance for linux to grow, but by
my current install experience it will scare most people away. Most people
fear computers. Nothing to make them feel good and "clever" by a clean
install.

Oh, just reinstalled linux, and since I knew the right path, it was
effortless.

Constructively flame on if you wish.
-Ed

Cliff

Stanislaw.
Slack user from Ulladulla.

Quote:>Fun thing #1.
>I need to get rid of my old windows partitions on the old drive. Easy? Hah.
>fdisk was in a catch-22, something like "you cannot remove partition X if
>partition Y exists, you cannot remove partition Y is X exists". I wish I
>remembered the actual details. Solution. Restart, boot into DOS, and format
>the sucker.

Quote:>Fun thing #2.
>I think "redhat knows best, let them set up default partitions". Why do I
>need a 80meg boot partition, isn't that just bootstrap code? Why does it

Quote:>leave 2 gigs free? Some great defaults.

Quote:>Fun thing #3.
>"Copying image to drive" ... "not enough space on drive". Huh. Well, for
>whatever reason, the great defaults setup by the installer don't even allow
>the installation to begin. For what reason. How do I know?

Quote:>Fun thing #4.
>Restart, make my own partitions. 23 meg boot (will I ever need more, anyone?
>tried 16, it took 23) 512meg swap, the rest as /
>Installation begins, goes like clockwork. This is how it SHOULD be.

Quote:>Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun. Cracked open a couple of beers, and
>installed and drank till 4am. Got the network running, played with the
>browser. Played around in KDE.
>But this is way to much to ask from most users. Of course, I say to hell

Quote:> In the words of Bill Gates when NT was coming out "NT is a weak Unix."
> So you should not have ANYTHING to * about, few administrative
> hickups in unfamiliar set of programms, as you said, the second time
> around you had none.
> For your kind of activities self installing OS is a waste of hardware.
> Anyway, welcome and have fun.

-Ed

Quote:> No. It is the whole kernel (vmlinuz-- compressed) and modules. However,
mine is
> only 3MB so 26 should be fine.

Quote:> >leave 2 gigs free? Some great defaults.
> ?

Quote:> >Fun thing #3.
> >"Copying image to drive" ... "not enough space on drive". Huh. Well, for
> >whatever reason, the great defaults setup by the installer don't even
allow
> >the installation to begin. For what reason. How do I know?

> Again no information for us to comment on.

Quote:> I do not like having just one partition. When you reinstall next year,
suddenly all
> your /home stuff and programs you isntalled in /usr/local have to be wiped
and
> reinstalled. Not fun.

Quote:> Most users do NOT do this for Win either. They have the shop install it
for them.
> and youshould talk to shop keepers sometime about how "easy" win was  to
install
> the first time they did it.

Thanks for the info. As I said, I am trying to find the "right way" to do
things. And perhaps document this, as a suitable "no brainer" way for a
total newbie to install. Since it should be easy for even a newbie to
experience linux, without reading masses of docs (yes I am pouring though
them, there is a lot of stuff!)

Quote:> I meant that the automatic partition feature of redhat created partitions
> leaving a 2 gig chunk of my 10 gig drive not belonging in any partition.

Quote:> /usr/local - where installed software should be, ie netscape, etc
> applications. Are there exceptions?

Quote:> /home - where all users accounts will be created, and where users will have
> their data.
> Are there any other folders which are special and deserve their own
> partitions? (I only had boot, swap and /)

Quote:>> and youshould talk to shop keepers sometime about how "easy" win was  to
> install
>> the first time they did it.

Quote:> Thanks for the info. As I said, I am trying to find the "right way" to do
> things. And perhaps document this, as a suitable "no brainer" way for a
> total newbie to install.

I'm using windows 98 less and less, but I'm not at the point yet where I
can discard it all together.

RB

Not all distros are going for the same things. Perhaps Redhat is not
concerned with catering to beginners? I don't really know, just a
conjecture. I do know that Mandrake does try to make things easier. What if
you had chosen Mandrake instead of Redhat? What would you have posted here?

--
Matt
http://www.veryComputer.com/

The point about whether its ready or not for some group of end users does
not really pertain any more.  I know a lot of end users who tire of the
grind with windows who settle for both approaches.  They want some of the
top; some of the bottom.  My main comment here is don't rely on the top
approach or you'll get stuck with a /usr that's not big enough.

I don't do redhat installs any more because I could not tolerate the top
approach they have.  Its too gooey.  It does things like what you say. I'll
take debian every time and I've converted my fair share of colleagues to it
also.  They tired quickly of redhat or mandrake's assistance at the very
approach you seem to want.  I think people that use Linux want to get their
hands dirty.  They want to look inside the envelope, touch the engine, add
the oil themselves.  A pretty gui will let you do this.  Editing
configuration files, learning how file systems work, creating samba shares
by editing a smb.conf file to me takes you farther.  You see the results of
your work; not the work of some GUI handler which may get it wrong. In the
case of disk druid, it could get it wrong a lot of times. I also had less
than positive luck with Xconfigurator in many situations.

--
Michael Perry | "Do or do not; there is no try" Master Yoda

--
Larry Ebbitt - Linux + OS/2 - Atlanta

Quote:> Here is a point.  Topdown Linux installs mean you get the final product
and
> then you decide its time to start learning about the nuts and bolts of the
> thing.  You get a nice GUI tool to help you manage the top parts of things
> and then as "time permits" you start to learn the bottom stuff.  Now, I
see
> that bottom stuff needs some learning as well as the top stuff.

Quote:> The point about whether its ready or not for some group of end users does
> not really pertain any more.  I know a lot of end users who tire of the
> grind with windows who settle for both approaches.  They want some of the
> top; some of the bottom.  My main comment here is don't rely on the top
> approach or you'll get stuck with a /usr that's not big enough.

Quote:> I don't do redhat installs any more because I could not tolerate the top
> approach they have.  Its too gooey.  It does things like what you say.
I'll
> take debian every time and I've converted my fair share of colleagues to
it
> also.  They tired quickly of redhat or mandrake's assistance at the very
> approach you seem to want.  I think people that use Linux want to get
their
> hands dirty.

Again, I agree with what you say. But my initial post had to do with
streamlining things totally for the newbie. Perhaps it isn't possible? I
think it is ... it still reinstalled easier than my freaking laptop/win95.

-Ed