Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Post by Timothy A. McDani » Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:44:11



Please forgive me; I'm a relative newbie to Debian.

I installed Debian 2.2, and tonight I did another
    apt-get update
    apt-get dist-upgrade
incantation so I had the latest.

Then I wanted to install trn.  Yes, it's oldish.  Yes, there are other
*rn programs that are more featureful: some have scoring, for
example.  But I'm used to trn, so I want it (which probably makes me a
heretic, I suppose).

So I go into dselect.  I forget how I got the listing of packages to
include trn, because it wasn't on the 3 Debian CDs I got (being
non-free) -- I think it was something with dselect [A]ccess and
[U]pdate.

Anyway, I'm in [S]elect, and I look for trn:
      -- Opt non-free trn          <none>    3.6-13
This is what it had for leafnode and task-dialup (q.v.):
     *** Xtr news     leafnode     1.9.9-4   1.9.9-4
     *** Opt net      task-dialup  0.3       0.3
I went to the trn line and hit "+".  I got a dependency page like

  -* Opt non-free trn
  __ Xtr news     inews
  -* Opt news     inewsinn
  __ Opt news     inn2-inews

I'm suspicious of anything connected with inn or regular inews.  On a
previous system I ran leafnode and it handled everything, and every so
often I got configuration error messages popping up from inn (because
I hadn't configured it, I suppose).

So I go to the "inewsinn" line and hit R, and all of them go to -- or
__.  Thought that R applied only to the current line; I guess not.  I
go to the "trn" line and hit "+", and now it's selected again and only
it is selected, so that's what I want.  I hit Q, then Q again.

I go to [I]nstall, and it says
    The following packages will be REMOVED:
        leafnode task-dialup

WHAT?!  In my little looking ('cause I understand little) I didn't see
any dependences or conflicts or anything in leafnode vis a vis inews
or trn!  task-dialup says it depends on leafnode, at least.  Naturally
(not wanting to lose leafnode and any part-time dialup stuff) I hit N.

Eventually I went to the Debian Web pages, found the latest stable trn
package, downloaded it, and figured out how to do
    dpkg --force-depends -i trn_3.6-13.deb
I have yet to see whether it *works* or not, mind you.   ...  Ah, no:

Anyone with a good explanation of why asking to *install* trn and
*ignore* three others results in wanting to *remove* leafnode and
task-dialup?

Anyone willing to suggest which of inews, inewsinn, or inn2-inews I
ought to install?

--


"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything

 
 
 

Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Post by Peter T. Breue » Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:04:36



Quote:> I installed Debian 2.2, and tonight I did another
>     apt-get update
>     apt-get dist-upgrade
> incantation so I had the latest.
> Then I wanted to install trn.  Yes, it's oldish.  Yes, there are other

So do

    apt-get install trn

Quote:> So I go into dselect.  I forget how I got the listing of packages to

Major mistake (;-).

Quote:>   -* Opt non-free trn
>   __ Xtr news     inews
>   -* Opt news     inewsinn
>   __ Opt news     inn2-inews
> I'm suspicious of anything connected with inn or regular inews.  On a
> previous system I ran leafnode and it handled everything, and every so
> often I got configuration error messages popping up from inn (because
> I hadn't configured it, I suppose).

Well, it's probable. You should not have inn on the suystem at all.

Quote:> I go to [I]nstall, and it says
>     The following packages will be REMOVED:
>         leafnode task-dialup

Apparently they're not selected. I hate dselect.

Quote:> Eventually I went to the Debian Web pages, found the latest stable trn
> package, downloaded it, and figured out how to do
>     dpkg --force-depends -i trn_3.6-13.deb

Surely it doesn't depend on anything .. let me see  ...

  Provides: news-reader
  Depends: libc6, libc6 (>= 2.1), libncurses4 (>= 4.2-3.1), inews

Well, apparantly it does have a dependency on inews! I think that's a
dependency bug. It should depend on "news-server" or some other
virtual. Read the README and later, if necessary, talk to the maintainer
about it:


  Version: 3.6-11

> I have yet to see whether it *works* or not, mind you.   ...  Ah, no:


You must be forgetting to run it in remote mode. It's looking on your
system for a news server. You want it to look elsewhere.

Quote:> Anyone with a good explanation of why asking to *install* trn and
> *ignore* three others results in wanting to *remove* leafnode and
> task-dialup?

Presumably because they were only included in the first place because
of "suggested"s that you have now invalidated.

Quote:> Anyone willing to suggest which of inews, inewsinn, or inn2-inews I
> ought to install?

inews  is what trn says it wants.

Sure you don't prefer tin to trn?

Peter

 
 
 

Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Post by Colin Wats » Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:12:24




>>   -* Opt non-free trn
>>   __ Xtr news     inews
>>   -* Opt news     inewsinn
>>   __ Opt news     inn2-inews

>> I'm suspicious of anything connected with inn or regular inews.

trn requires some kind of inews on the system in order to post, so it
depends on it. (Note that the inews package is actually the one from C
News.)

Quote:>> On a previous system I ran leafnode and it handled everything,

Does leafnode provide an 'inews' program? If so, it ought to have a
'Provides: inews' field, as many packages depend on that.

Quote:>> I go to [I]nstall, and it says
>>     The following packages will be REMOVED:
>>         leafnode task-dialup

>Apparently they're not selected. I hate dselect.

All you should need to do is say no to the confirmation question, go
back into the "[S]elect" screen, and ensure they're marked to install.
If there *is* a problem, you'll be told about it. I suspect you may have
accidentally marked some other news transport system to be installed;
for example, if you tried to install the inews package itself, it
depends on cnews.

Quote:>> Eventually I went to the Debian Web pages, found the latest stable trn
>> package, downloaded it, and figured out how to do
>>     dpkg --force-depends -i trn_3.6-13.deb

--force-depends is almost always a really, *really* bad idea, and I
wouldn't get into the habit of using it. Lack of dependencies usually
indicates a genuine problem (unless you're running unstable, when it
could be just a*-up, and even then it deserves a bug report).

Quote:>Surely it doesn't depend on anything .. let me see  ...

>  Provides: news-reader
>  Depends: libc6, libc6 (>= 2.1), libncurses4 (>= 4.2-3.1), inews

>Well, apparantly it does have a dependency on inews! I think that's a
>dependency bug. It should depend on "news-server" or some other
>virtual.

There is no bug. inews is a mixed virtual package; it is provided both
by the inews package itself and by other packages like inewsinn. Virtual
packages don't always have role-based names.

>Read the README and later, if necessary, talk to the maintainer about
>it:


>  Version: 3.6-11

If you do find a genuine bug, please talk to the bug tracking system
instead (see the documentation on http://www.veryComputer.com/) so that the
conversation is properly recorded in case somebody else takes over the
trn package in the future.

>> I have yet to see whether it *works* or not, mind you.   ...  Ah, no:

>You must be forgetting to run it in remote mode. It's looking on your
>system for a news server. You want it to look elsewhere.

Even if you run trn in remote mode, it looks for a local inews to do the
transport. The inewsinn and inn2-inews packages are there so that you
don't have to have a full news server in order to have the inews that
comes with inn or inn2 respectively.

Quote:>> Anyone with a good explanation of why asking to *install* trn and
>> *ignore* three others results in wanting to *remove* leafnode and
>> task-dialup?

>Presumably because they were only included in the first place because
>of "suggested"s that you have now invalidated.

dselect won't remove packages on that basis, nor will any of Debian's
other packaging tools to the best of my knowledge. They will only remove
packages due to explicit requests, conflicts, or the removal of
dependencies.

Quote:>> Anyone willing to suggest which of inews, inewsinn, or inn2-inews I
>> ought to install?

>inews  is what trn says it wants.


  Provides: inews

  Provides: inews

It doesn't really matter much. I use inewsinn, but then I have inn
installed too. From the looks of inews' dependencies, you don't want
that one.

--

"Microsoft deprived consumers of software innovation that they very
 well may have found valuable." - USA vs. MS findings, para. 410

 
 
 

Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Post by Peter T. Breue » Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:34:33


[attribs lost, sorry]

Quote:>>Presumably because they were only included in the first place because
>>of "suggested"s that you have now invalidated.
> dselect won't remove packages on that basis, nor will any of Debian's
> other packaging tools to the best of my knowledge. They will only remove
> packages due to explicit requests, conflicts, or the removal of
> dependencies.

You mean that packages dependent on absent packages will be slated for
removal? Is there any way to say "no" to remove and "yes" to install
at the same time? I am having a bit of a job stopping debian removing
jlex and other trivia because I replaced jdk1.1 with jdk1.2 from
blackdown ...

.. as far as I can see, I have to install the java-virtual-machine-dummy
package. But trying to download it through apt-get, apt-get bows out
claiming that I should fix dependencies first. That would remove the
things I want the dummy package to shore up.

A fix would be an explicit way to edit the dependency info. It appears
to be present in /var/lib/dpkg/status, and I've managed to trick one
system into installing the dummy package while not removing the rest
that way. But I believe that adding my jdk1.2 package to a "dummy
debian server" and adding the dummy server to /etc/apt/conf/sources_list
(approx) would be the better way to go.

Any suggestions?

Peter

 
 
 

Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Post by Colin Wats » Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:10:38




>> dselect won't remove packages on that basis, nor will any of Debian's
>> other packaging tools to the best of my knowledge. They will only remove
>> packages due to explicit requests, conflicts, or the removal of
>> dependencies.

>You mean that packages dependent on absent packages will be slated for
>removal?

That's right, yes.

Quote:>Is there any way to say "no" to remove and "yes" to install
>at the same time?

Well, if you really had to, you could use 'dpkg --force-depends --purge
package', or whatever, I guess. You can override dependencies with 'Q'
in dselect, but as far as I remember that just puts the relevant stuff
on hold until it's fixed (I may be wrong on this). Neither of these is
the best way; read on ...

Quote:>I am having a bit of a job stopping debian removing jlex and other
>trivia because I replaced jdk1.1 with jdk1.2 from blackdown ...

Ah. In the general case, the equivs package is the tool to fix this.
That allows you to write a package control file (in roughly the format
of entries in dpkg's available file) and generate a dummy package from
it. The package that's produced will contain no files, but will be able
to satisfy dependencies by way of Provides: lines and so on. You can
then install that with 'dpkg -i generated-package.deb'.

Quote:>.. as far as I can see, I have to install the java-virtual-machine-dummy
>package. But trying to download it through apt-get, apt-get bows out
>claiming that I should fix dependencies first. That would remove the
>things I want the dummy package to shore up.

Heh, that's ironic. This is a situation where using dpkg is probably
better; you could grab the package directly from the Debian archive and
install it with 'dpkg -i'. While apt-get is careful to keep global
consistency among your packages, dpkg is only concerned about local
consistency (to a first approximation, anyway), and won't complain about
the existing installation having broken dependencies.

In this specific case, I'd probably use java-virtual-machine-dummy to
sort out dependencies on java-virtual-machine, as the package is already
there and its dependencies are maintained by one of the Debian Java
people. I see that it doesn't provide jdk1.1-runtime, though, which jlex
depends on, so you'll still need to create and install a third package
for that.

The third alternative, of course, is to Debianize Blackdown's jdk1.2
(the Debian JDK maintainer says that it can't be distributed with Debian
as it stands due to some licensing concerns, but there's nothing to stop
people doing it privately). I often do this for bits of software I want
to install long-term rather than just trying them out, but I can believe
that it would be a substantial amount of work for something like the
JDK.

HTH,

--

"Debian, you *peasant*." - http://www.userfriendly.org/

 
 
 

Debian dselect problem: trn, leafnode, inews

Post by Peter T. Breue » Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:23:42





> In this specific case, I'd probably use java-virtual-machine-dummy to
> sort out dependencies on java-virtual-machine, as the package is already
> there and its dependencies are maintained by one of the Debian Java
> people. I see that it doesn't provide jdk1.1-runtime, though, which jlex
> depends on, so you'll still need to create and install a third package
> for that.

Thanks for the explanation. I altered the java-virtual-machine-dummy to
provide jdk1.1-runtime also. I think I'll enter a bug report on the
dependency against either the dummy package or jlex.

Peter