Linux The Enigma

Linux The Enigma

Post by gary5.. » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00



I have been studing for Networking Essentials an thought I would put
Corel Linux on my computer that I use for these studies to see want
networking through Linux would be like.
I downloaded Corel Linux (all 280meg) so I don't have any doc.with it,
that I assume would come with it if I had bought it.
Thinking sense Linux is a open code there would be no problems finding
information on the Internet.
Being a newbee to Linux the info I found (all be it alot) very
confusing, it seems to me that the writers of these doc. like the HOWTO
ones think you already know Linux.
I have not bought any books on Linux are there any good ones out there?
Thinking that because Linux is a on going project wouldn't theses books
be dated?
I started on computers using MS/DOS an have gone through all the Windoze
 versions (before the hair on the back of your neck starts to rise) I
don't like windozzze much either.
But at least it's easy to set up and if you can't figure out something
you can find info. that a idiot could follow.
My install of Linux went with out a hitch but did not have a soundcard
or NIC support.
Trying to set up the sound through modcong did not get me anywhere, gave
up.
The NIC after three days of screwing with it I got it to ping my Win98
box but can,t share anything so I figured I would go to SAMBA's site to
see what I could see HAHA same as the HOWTO's.
Why so many hoops to jump through
(compile,recompile,edit,edit,compile,edit,etc,etc,etc.) why so many
hoops?
I think I will slide my Win98 drive back in the box and go back to my
studies and save Linux for another day, week, month, years.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by E J » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


Why don't you download the Redhat 6.2 Document CD?  Many of it is quite
generic to Linux.
Go to www.redhat.com and download it from the mirror site.
You should also download the system administrator and network adminstrator
guide for the documentation area.
Too bad I did not have it when I was a newbie.
Most of the stuff in linux is from Unix and will remain because if it ain't
broke, don't fix it.
An old book in Unix would still be usable with Linux (but the same command
or files lives some place else :) )
Generally the new stuff comes from the GUIs wrapping the old commands to
make it friendlier and nicer and the programs supporting newer and
previously unsupported hardware (if the
hardware manufacture finally releases the specs).

> I have been studing for Networking Essentials an thought I would put
> Corel Linux on my computer that I use for these studies to see want
> networking through Linux would be like.
> I downloaded Corel Linux (all 280meg) so I don't have any doc.with it,
> that I assume would come with it if I had bought it.
> Thinking sense Linux is a open code there would be no problems finding
> information on the Internet.
> Being a newbee to Linux the info I found (all be it alot) very
> confusing, it seems to me that the writers of these doc. like the HOWTO
> ones think you already know Linux.
> I have not bought any books on Linux are there any good ones out there?
> Thinking that because Linux is a on going project wouldn't theses books
> be dated?
> I started on computers using MS/DOS an have gone through all the Windoze
>  versions (before the hair on the back of your neck starts to rise) I
> don't like windozzze much either.
> But at least it's easy to set up and if you can't figure out something
> you can find info. that a idiot could follow.
> My install of Linux went with out a hitch but did not have a soundcard
> or NIC support.
> Trying to set up the sound through modcong did not get me anywhere, gave
> up.
> The NIC after three days of screwing with it I got it to ping my Win98
> box but can,t share anything so I figured I would go to SAMBA's site to
> see what I could see HAHA same as the HOWTO's.
> Why so many hoops to jump through
> (compile,recompile,edit,edit,compile,edit,etc,etc,etc.) why so many
> hoops?
> I think I will slide my Win98 drive back in the box and go back to my
> studies and save Linux for another day, week, month, years.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.


 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Rod Smi » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


[Posted and mailed]



Quote:

> I have not bought any books on Linux are there any good ones out there?

As somebody who's been making a living by writing about Linux for over a
year now, I'd like to believe that my books are good. ;-) I haven't
(yet) written any truly introductory Linux books, though. I do have a
few comments about some such books at:

http://www.rodsbooks.com/books/books-linintro.html

Quote:> Thinking that because Linux is a on going project wouldn't theses books
> be dated?

To some extent that's true of all computer books. It is perhaps a little
more true of Linux books than of other computer books, but not
necessarily by a lot.

Quote:> Why so many hoops to jump through
> (compile,recompile,edit,edit,compile,edit,etc,etc,etc.) why so many
> hoops?

A lot of the problems you've having with Linux are simply due to the
fact that you're used to a different paradigm. The Linux way of doing
things isn't really substantially more difficult than the Windows way,
but it is different. Both are intolerant, but in different ways -- with
Linux, the procedures are intolerant of errors on your part; with
Windows, they're intolerant of errors or lack of vision on the part of
the designers. You'll find plenty of anecdotes about problems getting
component X to work under EITHER Windows OR Linux.

--

http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux networking & multi-OS configuration

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by gary5.. » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


I know that I will have to learn Linux sooner or later.
It just seems to me that there has been a lot of press lately on how
Linux is coming up quick on Windows.
I know that Linux is not suppose to be Windows but if it will ever
compete for the publics favor it will have to come a long way.
I personaly would like to see M$ sweat a little from good ole
competition.
I think that a good OS should be able to be used by anyone, from casual
users to serious computing maybe this is to much to expect.
But until you can stick Linux in a box & get it up an running with
minor problems & if you do have problems not having to stick your nose
in a book or glued to your computer screen for a month or more just
because you want to update a driver, card or add a printer it not going
to happen.
Trust me I am not waving any flags of glory for Windoze but none for
Linux either.
I do hope that one day I will have to eat these words.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Stanislaw Flatt » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00



> I know that I will have to learn Linux sooner or later.

No, you don't, but better sooner.
The genealogy of Linux relates to Unix where multitude of users relayed
on the administrative guru to make things happen.
Then came Linux to enable this system to run on PC (personal computer).
So now the multitude is you and you, once as user and always as the
almighty root. You can even send mail to each other.
Some of us enjoy this especially the idiotic answers we get.
Have fun...

--
    ******* Stanislaw ********
Monolog - one person talking to himself,
dialog - two people talking to themselves.
                         -Shaike Ofir-

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by John C. Grigg » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00



> I know that I will have to learn Linux sooner or later.
> It just seems to me that there has been a lot of press lately on how
> Linux is coming up quick on Windows.
> I know that Linux is not suppose to be Windows but if it will ever
> compete for the publics favor it will have to come a long way.
> I personaly would like to see M$ sweat a little from good ole
> competition.
> I think that a good OS should be able to be used by anyone, from casual
> users to serious computing maybe this is to much to expect.

Well, by that token, Windoze NT and Windoze 2000 are not "good OS"es
either - try giving your grandma a stack of hardware and a WinNT 4 CD
and see how far she gets with the installation and configuration...
Most people couldn't even install Win9x on anything other than the most
generic hardware - something like 80%+ of Windoze installations are done
by the person or company that assembles the computer.

Quote:> But until you can stick Linux in a box & get it up an running with
> minor problems & if you do have problems not having to stick your nose
> in a book or glued to your computer screen for a month or more just
> because you want to update a driver, card or add a printer it not going
> to happen.

I've been using Linux and Windoze, both personally and professionally,
for most of the lifetime of both (starting with Win3.0 and Linux 0.93),
and I'd say I've had just as much trouble getting Win9x to support my
hardware (soundcards, SCSI and video in particular) as I have with
Linux.  At least with Linux, I've always managed to get it going in the
end - I can list at least two or three devices that I never did get to
run happily under Windoze.

Quote:> Trust me I am not waving any flags of glory for Windoze but none for
> Linux either.
> I do hope that one day I will have to eat these words.

The trade off is the power and configurability of Linux versus the ease
of use of Windows.  Eventually there will be "dumbed down" versions of
Linux that shield the user from the complexity of the underlying system
while preventing them from "colouring outside the lines" or really being
able to tweak or optimize the system.  And Linux will be installed and
configured more and more by the techs from the local computer shop or
big OEMs (Compaq, Gateway, Dell, etc.).

For the moment, you have to recall that, unlike M$, who are trying to
build a real OS from a tinker toy ancestor, Linux comes from the
background of doing "heavy lifting" and is being "dolled up" and
simplified for the desktop.  As they say: "Simple, Powerful, Stable -
choose any two."

Lastly, in defence of learning - anything you learn about your hardware
and system to configure Linux will help you understand how computers and
OSes really work.  I've been able to apply concepts I learned on Linux
to help figure out how bits of NT work.  On the other hand, learning low
level WinNT 4.x/2000 or Win9x essentially means learning the Windoze
Registry - knowledge that is useless once you get off the Windoze
platform.

Just my $0.02 (Canadian).

John Griggs

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Richar » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00



>I have been studing for Networking Essentials an thought I would put
>Corel Linux on my computer that I use for these studies to see want
>networking through Linux would be like.
>I downloaded Corel Linux (all 280meg) so I don't have any doc.with it,
>that I assume would come with it if I had bought it.
>Thinking sense Linux is a open code there would be no problems finding
>information on the Internet.
>Being a newbee to Linux the info I found (all be it alot) very
>confusing, it seems to me that the writers of these doc. like the HOWTO
>ones think you already know Linux.
>I have not bought any books on Linux are there any good ones out there?
>Thinking that because Linux is a on going project wouldn't theses books
>be dated?
>I started on computers using MS/DOS an have gone through all the Windoze
> versions (before the hair on the back of your neck starts to rise) I
>don't like windozzze much either.
>But at least it's easy to set up and if you can't figure out something
>you can find info. that a idiot could follow.
>My install of Linux went with out a hitch but did not have a soundcard
>or NIC support.
>Trying to set up the sound through modcong did not get me anywhere, gave
>up.
>The NIC after three days of screwing with it I got it to ping my Win98
>box but can,t share anything so I figured I would go to SAMBA's site to
>see what I could see HAHA same as the HOWTO's.
>Why so many hoops to jump through
>(compile,recompile,edit,edit,compile,edit,etc,etc,etc.) why so many
>hoops?
>I think I will slide my Win98 drive back in the box and go back to my
>studies and save Linux for another day, week, month, years.

>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.

Well, your complaint is a valid one - to a point. However, if you are
going to be a computer professional, investing the time to learn Linux
is time well spent. Doing all the configuring, learning all the ins
and outs will really help you work with NT, and the Windows family.

However, for 95% of the people out there, Windows is a better choice
for day to day work.

Just a couple of specific points - if you want a good manual, I
recommend Suse linux. And to be honest, I remember going through your
same type of complaints back when I created my first computer network,
which was Windows 3.11 peer to peer.

And, your linux machine was sharing a lot with your Windows 98 box.
You have email availability, web server, FTP, etc, all out of the box.

Later! (And, by the way, I'm a linux newbie myself, and no computer
novice, yet some of the Linux stuff is leaving me scratching my head.
Jumping in and I eventually get everything going - reminds me of when
I was learning DOS stuff, which was just as cryptic, but now makes
perfect sense.)

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Michael V. Ferrant » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


Here I was, minding my own business, and wouldn't you know it?

Quote:>I personaly would like to see M$ sweat a little from good ole
>competition.

        I think they already are, being in competition with the US Justice
Dept. to stay in business.  I may not like Windows (DOS was somewhat okay),
but you have to admit, they are the defacto backbone of the software
industry.  Break them, and the entire personal computer industry's economy
goes with them.  How do you write new software for an OS that hasn't been
(re)designed yet?  Computerized bookkeeping has it's foot in the door of
almost every business in America, not to mention the rest of the world.
The market can't profitably migrate to Linux yet.  It's open-source,
unfinished, and doesn't have near-enough hardware support.  Apple will see
it's stocks soar through the roof though as everyone moves in desperation
over to the Macintosh, which means intel and all of the businesses that
depend on them will be screwed as well.  A Microsoft breakup would take
decades to recover from, if at all.  Hopefully the govt will realize they
would be shooting themselves in the foot with respect to the resulting loss
of multi-billion dollar tax revenues.  This is one battle where I hope
govt's greed wins in the end.  Janet Reno knows not what she does...

-                Michael V. Ferranti [blades&inreach*com]
                            GNUke The Planet!
                          The GNUclear Network?
ID# 177869        Registered with the Linux Counter. http://counter.li.org

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Michael V. Ferrant » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


Here I was, minding my own business, and wouldn't you know it?

Quote:>Well, by that token, Windoze NT and Windoze 2000 are not "good OS"es
>either - try giving your grandma a stack of hardware and a WinNT 4 CD
>and see how far she gets with the installation and configuration...

        You forgot all the added application, game, and utility software that's
included in all the distributions.  In WinNT's case, those all have to be
bought and installed manually.  WinNT still has better h/w support in it's
favor, though.

-                Michael V. Ferranti [blades&inreach*com]
                            GNUke The Planet!
                          The GNUclear Network?
ID# 177869        Registered with the Linux Counter. http://counter.li.org

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Robie Bas » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


On Thu, 01 Jun 2000 02:16:19 +0100, Michael V. Ferranti said:

>Here I was, minding my own business, and wouldn't you know it?

>>I personaly would like to see M$ sweat a little from good ole
>>competition.

>    I think they already are, being in competition with the US Justice
>Dept. to stay in business.  I may not like Windows (DOS was somewhat okay),
>but you have to admit, they are the defacto backbone of the software
>industry.  Break them, and the entire personal computer industry's economy
>goes with them.  How do you write new software for an OS that hasn't been
>(re)designed yet?  Computerized bookkeeping has it's foot in the door of
>almost every business in America, not to mention the rest of the world.
>The market can't profitably migrate to Linux yet.  It's open-source,

Why is open-source a problem? The market can release binary-only code;
RMS won't like it, neither will I or a lot of people (the majority in
this newsgroup I would have thought), but they are free to do it.

Quote:>unfinished, and doesn't have near-enough hardware support.  Apple will see

Unfinished? It'll always remain unfinished. Are you trying to say that
Windows is finished? (no pun intended, but it's funny anyway)

Quote:>it's stocks soar through the roof though as everyone moves in desperation
>over to the Macintosh, which means intel and all of the businesses that
>depend on them will be screwed as well.  A Microsoft breakup would take

That's their problem; they decided to use a homogeneous network. It'll
give companies which use Linux a break, and will allow everyone to
actually make a choice, which they can't at the moment, thanks to the
monopoly.

Quote:>decades to recover from, if at all.  Hopefully the govt will realize they
>would be shooting themselves in the foot with respect to the resulting loss
>of multi-billion dollar tax revenues.  This is one battle where I hope
>govt's greed wins in the end.  Janet Reno knows not what she does...

Possibly. Maybe the US government should forget about the breakup,
just put in place 24/7 auditors (or whatever they should be called) to
make sure Microsoft play fair, release specs, API etc, seperate their
products and so on. But I suppose someone already said that.

Robie.
--
My ISP's news server was messed up recently; sorry if you haven't
heard a reply from me.

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Thomas Luza » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00




Quote:>>The market can't profitably migrate to Linux yet.  It's open-source,

>Why is open-source a problem? The market can release binary-only code;
>RMS won't like it, neither will I or a lot of people (the majority in
>this newsgroup I would have thought), but they are free to do it.

>>unfinished, and doesn't have near-enough hardware support.  Apple will see

>Unfinished? It'll always remain unfinished. Are you trying to say that
>Windows is finished? (no pun intended, but it's funny anyway)

There's much left to be done to get a cleaner system. I suppose we
might be there before Kernel 3.x...

The system starts getting mature in some aspects: The real /dev gets
replaced by devfs. Journalling file systems are on their way.
Accelerated X support gets better. kmod helps to easily load modules
in a clean way. The compilers (gcc/g++) get optimized and C++ support
gets closer to ISO-C++. Further improved firewall and networking
support.

OTOH most package systems are still not that good IMO.
Internationalization leaves much to be desired. Too many unnecessary
library dependency problems. Some packages are horrible to compile.

Thomas

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Michael V. Ferrant » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


Here I was, minding my own business, and wouldn't you know it?

Quote:>Why is open-source a problem?

        It's a Debian kinda thing...the "Open-Source Movement," and the fact
that alot of the good stuff has already been written cheaper and better,
meaning they're competing against free software like PostgreSQL, X, and
Gnumeric.  The reason I haven't even tried Star Office yet is because I
don't need it.

Quote:>Unfinished? It'll always remain unfinished. Are you trying to say that
>Windows is finished? (no pun intended, but it's funny anyway)

        Meaning it's still in the development stages, referring mainly to X and
documentation.  The average Windows user is nowhere near ready to admin a
Linux system as it sits today.  They want something they can use now.

Quote:>That's their problem; they decided to use a homogeneous network.

        No, it's the public's problem.  Haven't you been watching what's
happening on the stock market?  High-tech stocks are bottoming out.  If
companies can't make money, who's gonna pay their employees?  The
government?  Certainly not.  Their money comes from your pocket and mine.

Quote:>It'll give companies which use Linux a break, and will allow everyone to
>actually make a choice, which they can't at the moment, thanks to the
>monopoly.

        There is no choice.  Linux is not ready for the mainstream.  If the
market can't keep Microsoft, they'll move to the pre-established second
best...Apple.  If Microsoft goes, the intel PC goes with it, and we're all
stuck with obsolete intel processors and no more hardware support.

Quote:>Possibly. Maybe the US government should forget about the breakup,

        How about just fining them and giving the monies to the offended party,
like in a perfectly legal, time-honored lawsuit?

Quote:>just put in place 24/7 auditors (or whatever they should be called)

        The KGB?  The Gestapo?  The LAPD/NYPD/BATF?  Nah.  Too many innocent
Microsoft employees would get accidently shot by over-zealous agents.
Besides, with a plain old lawsuit, Microsoft and ONLY Microsoft pays for
breaking the law.  If you audit Microsoft, then you'll have to pay more
taxes to employ yet another unconstitutional bureaucracy like the BATF.

Quote:>make sure Microsoft play fair, release specs, API etc, seperate their
>products and so on. But I suppose someone already said that.  

        A govt controlled computer...hmmmn.  I like my mouse and keyboard just
fine.  I don't wanna be tested and licensed to pay for standing in line to
fill out a form to make my computer run a program within "x" business days.
Sounds like a pretty sucky user interface. <grins>

-                Michael V. Ferranti [blades&inreach*com]
                            GNUke The Planet!
                          The GNUclear Network?
ID# 177869        Registered with the Linux Counter. http://counter.li.org

 
 
 

Linux The Enigma

Post by Robie Bas » Sun, 31 Dec 1899 09:00:00


On Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:20:30 +0100, Michael V. Ferranti said:

>Here I was, minding my own business, and wouldn't you know it?

>>Why is open-source a problem?

I've forgotten why I said that :-)

Quote:>    It's a Debian kinda thing...the "Open-Source Movement," and the fact
>that alot of the good stuff has already been written cheaper and better,
>meaning they're competing against free software like PostgreSQL, X, and
>Gnumeric.  The reason I haven't even tried Star Office yet is because I
>don't need it.

>>Unfinished? It'll always remain unfinished. Are you trying to say that
>>Windows is finished? (no pun intended, but it's funny anyway)

>    Meaning it's still in the development stages, referring mainly to X and
>documentation.  The average Windows user is nowhere near ready to admin a
>Linux system as it sits today.  They want something they can use now.

X is complete; KDE has a stable release, as does GNOME. Agreed,
documentation is lacking, but look at the manual that comes with
Windows nowadays. I still refer to my old DOS 5 manual - why is there
not one with 95/98?

Quote:>>That's their problem; they decided to use a homogeneous network.

>    No, it's the public's problem.  Haven't you been watching what's
>happening on the stock market?  High-tech stocks are bottoming out.  If
>companies can't make money, who's gonna pay their employees?  The

As I understand it, the companies never did make money; they just
managed to sell plenty of stock.

Quote:>government?  Certainly not.  Their money comes from your pocket and mine.

How does it come from my pocket? I didn't hold any stock. If I had, I
would have sold it when it started going up disproportionately - a
bust was inevitable, as people were buying simply on the basis that it
was going up, and not because of the merits of the companies. Of
course, that's in hindsight :-)

I know very little about economics, but how does it affect anyone
other than those who had stakes in those companies?

Quote:>>It'll give companies which use Linux a break, and will allow everyone to
>>actually make a choice, which they can't at the moment, thanks to the
>>monopoly.

>    There is no choice.  Linux is not ready for the mainstream.  If the
>market can't keep Microsoft, they'll move to the pre-established second
>best...Apple.  If Microsoft goes, the intel PC goes with it, and we're all
>stuck with obsolete intel processors and no more hardware support.

>>Possibly. Maybe the US government should forget about the breakup,

>    How about just fining them and giving the monies to the offended party,
>like in a perfectly legal, time-honored lawsuit?

The offended party? There are too many of them. The general public is
also offended, because of it's lack of choice in the OS market,
brought about by the illegal practices of Microsoft. Do we give
everyone some of their money?

Quote:>>just put in place 24/7 auditors (or whatever they should be called)

>    The KGB?  The Gestapo?  The LAPD/NYPD/BATF?  Nah.  Too many innocent
>Microsoft employees would get accidently shot by over-zealous agents.
>Besides, with a plain old lawsuit, Microsoft and ONLY Microsoft pays for
>breaking the law.  If you audit Microsoft, then you'll have to pay more
>taxes to employ yet another unconstitutional bureaucracy like the BATF.

Make Microsoft pay for it.

Quote:>>make sure Microsoft play fair, release specs, API etc, seperate their
>>products and so on. But I suppose someone already said that.  

>    A govt controlled computer...hmmmn.  I like my mouse and keyboard just
>fine.  I don't wanna be tested and licensed to pay for standing in line to
>fill out a form to make my computer run a program within "x" business days.
>Sounds like a pretty sucky user interface. <grins>

Let Microsoft do their work as they like, but simply control what
information they wish to keep private.

Robie.
--

 
 
 

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