W4GL PC Configurations

W4GL PC Configurations

Post by Michael Kr » Wed, 08 Jun 1994 22:28:08



We are currently using W4gl 2.0 under Windows3.1 on 486/33's with
8-16 MB memory, and 110 MB HD.  We have alloted a 10MB permanant
swap file.  Our concern is that because our application is very
'frame intensive' i.e., users can have up to 7 - 12 frames open,
and a few of these frames are very 'maths' orientated ( ie,
between 20 - 500 calculations in one go), we may have problems in
the memorey area.  Can anyone tell me if Ingres will utilise the Windows
swap file, and if so, how and when does it use it?  I'm a bit suspicious
that the WIndows/Ingres/DOS (Whatever) swapfile management is not
up to par.  Any advice will be appreciated.

PS.  We are implementing Client server, and therefore expect the clients
to do some of the work.  Also, my personal opinion is that PCs are crap,
and we have made a decision to move to workstations, but this will take
awhile, so I have to live with what's thrown at me.

Cheers
Mike :)
--

Michael Krey
British Aviation Insurance Group

No one ever got their work done by Friday, except Robinson Crusoe.

 
 
 

W4GL PC Configurations

Post by Paul Bro » Thu, 09 Jun 1994 01:36:37


  [PC horror story deleted ]

: Cheers
: Mike :)
: --

  I heard a juicy story from a developer in a PC shop, who told
  me the following;

  In the MS-Windows API, they have a malloc() call. If there isn't
  enough space in memory, the malloc() call returns as much as it
  can, but no error message. The result is that when you walk
  through your brand new block of memory, and you reach the
  end of it, you see;

  "GPF"

  Familiar, anyone?

  Note that I am reporting a story, and I have *no* experience with
  Windows APIs, but enough experience of PC's to be able to
  estimate that my Mean Time to Failure on a PC is about 4 hours.
  If any industrious MS-Windows person out there can correct
  this version of events by providing the appropriate way to
  malloc() memory safely I would be grateful.

  My little DEC workstation has been up for three months now.

 KR
    P"Don't have a cow, Bill."b

 
 
 

W4GL PC Configurations

Post by Mark S. Copenhav » Fri, 10 Jun 1994 00:14:17



>We are currently using W4gl 2.0 under Windows3.1 on 486/33's with
>8-16 MB memory, and 110 MB HD.  We have alloted a 10MB permanant
>swap file.  Our concern is that because our application is very
>'frame intensive' i.e., users can have up to 7 - 12 frames open,
>and a few of these frames are very 'maths' orientated ( ie,
>between 20 - 500 calculations in one go), we may have problems in
>the memorey area.  Can anyone tell me if Ingres will utilise the Windows
>swap file, and if so, how and when does it use it?  I'm a bit suspicious
>that the WIndows/Ingres/DOS (Whatever) swapfile management is not
>up to par.  Any advice will be appreciated.

Well, I'm afraid it's not the virtual (physical + swapfile) memory
you need to worry about.  MSWindows3.1 has two internal stack resources
called 'GDI' and 'USER' resources.  The GDI resource is a 64k stack which
is used to manage graphics commands.  The USER resource is two 64k
stacks used to manage window objects.  The size and number of these
stacks is hardcoded in MSWindows and cannot be changed.  Unfortunately,
Windows4GL makes full use of MSWindows memory management and, with
5 or 6 healthy screens, can run out of either of these resources.  

When you run out of either of these resources, you will likely get
an 'Out of Memory' error, which can be very misleading.  If you use
a utility (like Norton's System Watch) to track the different types
of memory resources while your application is running, you can find
out exactly which memory is running out.  Also, at the bottom of the
'Help' - 'About Program Manager' screen is a 'System Resources' item.
This number is the lesser of the GDI resources and the USER resources.

Ingres Tech Support suggests opening fewer screens simultaneously.  I
found that an open screen uses resources even if it is not visible.  I
ended up rewriting parts of my application to use 'gotoframe' instead
of 'callframe'.

Sorry about the bad news, hope this helps.

--

Mark Copenhaver                                              (404) 448-7727

Atlanta, GA    USA

 
 
 

W4GL PC Configurations

Post by Michael Kr » Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:49:30




>>We are currently using W4gl 2.0 under Windows3.1 on 486/33's with
>>8-16 MB memory, and 110 MB HD.  We have alloted a 10MB permanant
>>swap file.  Our concern is that because our application is very
>>'frame intensive' i.e., users can have up to 7 - 12 frames open,
>>and a few of these frames are very 'maths' orientated ( ie,
>>between 20 - 500 calculations in one go), we may have problems in
>>the memorey area.  Can anyone tell me if Ingres will utilise the Windows
>>swap file, and if so, how and when does it use it?  I'm a bit suspicious
>>that the WIndows/Ingres/DOS (Whatever) swapfile management is not
>>up to par.  Any advice will be appreciated.

>Well, I'm afraid it's not the virtual (physical + swapfile) memory
>you need to worry about.  MSWindows3.1 has two internal stack resources
>called 'GDI' and 'USER' resources.  The GDI resource is a 64k stack which
>is used to manage graphics commands.  The USER resource is two 64k
>stacks used to manage window objects.  The size and number of these
>stacks is hardcoded in MSWindows and cannot be changed.  Unfortunately,
>Windows4GL makes full use of MSWindows memory management and, with
>5 or 6 healthy screens, can run out of either of these resources.  

5 or 6 Screens??  How wonderful.  We've designed a Multi-threaded application,
and because of it's complexity, users will have an average of 8 -15 windows
open at any given time.  Looks like we might have to do a rethink (or
implement workstations at a quicker rate :)

Quote:>When you run out of either of these resources, you will likely get
>an 'Out of Memory' error, which can be very misleading.  If you use

Been there, seen it, and done it.

Quote:>Ingres Tech Support suggests opening fewer screens simultaneously.  I

Of course.  Unfortunatly I have to write the application to conform
to how the business works.  

Quote:>found that an open screen uses resources even if it is not visible.  I
>ended up rewriting parts of my application to use 'gotoframe' instead
>of 'callframe'.

Eee Gads!!  No thanks.  We're too far ahead to look at that option.

Quote:>Sorry about the bad news, hope this helps.

Well, thanks a million Mark.  I'm not surprised.  As I said, I think
PC's are great for golf games and flight simulators, but I think what
we need is a real man's machine ;) :)
Cheers
Mike

PS.  And to think in a year's time we will have to implement Document
Image Processing into W4gl.  The mind boggles  (and so will the memorey
I imagine)
Michael Krey
British Aviation Insurance Group

No one ever got their work done by Friday, except Robinson Crusoe.

 
 
 

W4GL PC Configurations

Post by Geleuken, R.A » Wed, 15 Jun 1994 18:37:16



> We are currently using W4gl 2.0 under Windows3.1 on 486/33's with
> 8-16 MB memory, and 110 MB HD.  We have alloted a 10MB permanant
> swap file.  Our concern is that because our application is very
> 'frame intensive' i.e., users can have up to 7 - 12 frames open,
> and a few of these frames are very 'maths' orientated ( ie,
> between 20 - 500 calculations in one go), we may have problems in
> the memorey area.  Can anyone tell me if Ingres will utilise the Windows
> swap file, and if so, how and when does it use it?  I'm a bit suspicious
> that the WIndows/Ingres/DOS (Whatever) swapfile management is not
> up to par.  Any advice will be appreciated.

> PS.  We are implementing Client server, and therefore expect the clients
> to do some of the work.  Also, my personal opinion is that PCs are crap,
> and we have made a decision to move to workstations, but this will take
> awhile, so I have to live with what's thrown at me.

> Cheers
> Mike :)
> --

> Michael Krey
> British Aviation Insurance Group

> No one ever got their work done by Friday, except Robinson Crusoe.

Having read this article, I'm not really sure what sort of memory-problems you're having. I currently work with windows4GL, and have experienced some problems with the Windows system resources. It seems that windows4GL handles the allocation of the system resources rather poorly, so that after opening several frames with tables and entryfields the program suddenly winks out of existance.

The solution to this problem lies in a call to a Windows API function, requesting the number of remaining bytes of system resources. Comparing this number with a calculated number of bytes for the frame, you (or rather the program) can decide that the frame takes too much memory and therefore cannot be opened. The necessary calculations and system calls are easy to implement, so if anyone's interested let me know.

Regarding the management of the swapfile, I personally think that windows4GL has no influence on this. Windows has it's limitations, and one of them is memory.

Roald.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haagse Hogeschool, sector informatica.
The Netherlands

 
 
 

1. PC configuration for W4GL

In INGRES/W4GL release notes [april 94] w4gl 2.01/01 (dev.win/02 &
run.win/02), it provides the PC configuration requirements;HOWEVER, I
cannot (re)locate the required RAM for a development PC.  I believe
INGRES recommends 16MB RAM (or was that 12).  I am interest in the
configuration of current developement RAM on PCs (NOT INGRES' MINIMUM).  
What is the wisdom on PC RAM for W4GL?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only constant in life is change.

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