Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by PtLi » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00



Any stories, either good or bad, from converting from a Pick system to an
Oracle system, or the other direction, would be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Madib » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Why don't you stay with Pick

if you ask your local Pick reseller you will notice that Pick systems has a
producte for this . To either stage it or not - choice is yours

Forgive bad English etc

HTH
Pick Systems has products - We beleive why not You

Personnale view


Quote:> Any stories, either good or bad, from converting from a Pick system to an
> Oracle system, or the other direction, would be greatly appreciated

> Thanks in advance


 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by YANK » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Yes i heard horror story converting pick to oracle, you will
have a hard time handling mv and svm, there was a health care
company that try to switch to *from pick and they had night
mare . just stay with pick
Pick is a very good language, if you setup your file structure
correctly you should run just as fast then any other database in
the market, pick got a bad rap because old programmers wrote a
lot of spaghetti code and poor file structure.

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.veryComputer.com/ The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by PtLi » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Quote:>Why don't you stay with Pick

>if you ask your local Pick reseller you will notice that Pick systems has a
>producte for this . To either stage it or not - choice is yours

>Forgive bad English etc

I don't want to move to Oracle. I want to stay with Pick.  Just need as much
ammunition for the gun as possible.  Oracle has WAY to high of a price tag, way
too long of an implementation time, and probably alot less maintainable.
 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by dalelb.. » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00




Quote:> >Why don't you stay with Pick

> >if you ask your local Pick reseller you will notice that Pick
systems has a
> >producte for this . To either stage it or not - choice is yours

> >Forgive bad English etc

> I don't want to move to Oracle. I want to stay with Pick.  Just need
as much
> ammunition for the gun as possible.  Oracle has WAY to high of a
price tag, way
> too long of an implementation time, and probably alot less
maintainable.

What you can try is using Deja-News and the search engine.  I remember
reading about a managed health care or insurance company in the States
that were swayed to move from Pick to Oracle.

As I remember the story their share prices dropped from $50+ down to
about $10.  The thing that stuck in my mind was that one of the company
directors was quoted as saying that the should have bought 200
selectric typewriters and hired a pool of typist to keep their cash
flow up.  It seems that the almost went out of business during the
transition.

And the Oracle 'gurus' were pounding their heads against the wall
trying to figure out the multi-values, sub-values, and the 'wrong' data
types on various attributes.

The power behind Pick is the fact that it is very flexable and fluid.
The shortcomings of Pick is that it is very flexable and fluid.

If a person isn't real sure of things, they can hang themselves quite
quickly.

Best regards,

Dale

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Roge » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Oxford Health Care.
I'm told they spent almost 5 years converting from Pick to Oracle.
Their big losses were based on a decision to cut over to the new system with
out full editing functions enabled.

Their clerks would enter batches, without online editing, which would then
get rejected by a batch process requiring them to go back and fix it.  And
of course there weren't enough people in the editing department (since they
didn't need them with pick) so a lot of batches piled up.  Maybe as much as
6 months worth.

We have one customer that just switched from AP to Oracle.  Right during
their peak season.  With very little training for the staff.  They now have
8 times the iron, processing the same amount of information.  With more then
a few of the usual cutover problems.  Sorry, but I can't identify this
customer.

Roger




> > >Why don't you stay with Pick

> > >if you ask your local Pick reseller you will notice that Pick
> systems has a
> > >producte for this . To either stage it or not - choice is yours

> > >Forgive bad English etc

> > I don't want to move to Oracle. I want to stay with Pick.  Just need
> as much
> > ammunition for the gun as possible.  Oracle has WAY to high of a
> price tag, way
> > too long of an implementation time, and probably alot less
> maintainable.

> What you can try is using Deja-News and the search engine.  I remember
> reading about a managed health care or insurance company in the States
> that were swayed to move from Pick to Oracle.

> As I remember the story their share prices dropped from $50+ down to
> about $10.  The thing that stuck in my mind was that one of the company
> directors was quoted as saying that the should have bought 200
> selectric typewriters and hired a pool of typist to keep their cash
> flow up.  It seems that the almost went out of business during the
> transition.

> And the Oracle 'gurus' were pounding their heads against the wall
> trying to figure out the multi-values, sub-values, and the 'wrong' data
> types on various attributes.

> The power behind Pick is the fact that it is very flexable and fluid.
> The shortcomings of Pick is that it is very flexable and fluid.

> If a person isn't real sure of things, they can hang themselves quite
> quickly.

> Best regards,

> Dale

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Don Spragu » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


There are many success and failure stories.  Most, IMHO, are based much more
on the culture of the company than on the products.  Companies that make
successful transitions were diciplined shops that had programming standards,
data dictionaries, requirement documents, etc. long before the conversion.
Some had already normalized their data within the Pick environment.

The failures are those that had no dicipline to begin with, seldom planned
what they were doing -- everything was a 'fire sale' -- and they they wonder
why they failed at transitioning to another environment!!!  One thing to
keep in mind is that in Pick a "pile of junk" system can be kept running for
decades, in Oracle it is really not an option.  A disciplined, engineering
approach to systems development is an absolute requirement.


Quote:> Any stories, either good or bad, from converting from a Pick system to an
> Oracle system, or the other direction, would be greatly appreciated

> Thanks in advance

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Daniel Klei » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Agreed, you don't hear much about the success stories especially on
this ng. So here's another 'failure' story. A company I used to work
for announced that they were moving to oracle. When I found out, I
quit. They are still 'moving' and I left more than 2 years ago.

Dan;

On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:36:20 -0800, "Don Sprague"


>There are many success and failure stories.  Most, IMHO, are based much more
>on the culture of the company than on the products.  Companies that make
>successful transitions were diciplined shops that had programming standards,
>data dictionaries, requirement documents, etc. long before the conversion.
>Some had already normalized their data within the Pick environment.

>The failures are those that had no dicipline to begin with, seldom planned
>what they were doing -- everything was a 'fire sale' -- and they they wonder
>why they failed at transitioning to another environment!!!  One thing to
>keep in mind is that in Pick a "pile of junk" system can be kept running for
>decades, in Oracle it is really not an option.  A disciplined, engineering
>approach to systems development is an absolute requirement.



>> Any stories, either good or bad, from converting from a Pick system to an
>> Oracle system, or the other direction, would be greatly appreciated

>> Thanks in advance

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by dalelb.. » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00


It really makes me wonder how much more expensive Oracle and like
products are compared to a Pick solution.  I've work with companies
that have a major accounting and inventory system servicing 30 or so
people using dumb terminals for the most part.  All running on a 486-66
Mhz with an IDE drive and 16 Meg of memory.  The client only complained
about performance when the old QIC tape unit was in use, or giant
reports were being generated.  For the most part the whole system was
rather quick.  All this and no IS person on site.  The company I worked
for would get a trouble call for the OS/hardware about once a month if
that.

What sort of hardware, wiring (LAN or otherwise), and user hardware to
interface with the main computer would be required for a like Oracle
solution?  And what would be the cost of the software solution perform
the same job?  And there's always the cost of extra IS people to handle
the system to keep it tuned and running.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Dale



> Oxford Health Care.
> I'm told they spent almost 5 years converting from Pick to Oracle.
> Their big losses were based on a decision to cut over to the new
system with
> out full editing functions enabled.

> Their clerks would enter batches, without online editing, which would
then
> get rejected by a batch process requiring them to go back and fix
it.  And
> of course there weren't enough people in the editing department
(since they
> didn't need them with pick) so a lot of batches piled up.  Maybe as
much as
> 6 months worth.

> We have one customer that just switched from AP to Oracle.  Right
during
> their peak season.  With very little training for the staff.  They
now have
> 8 times the iron, processing the same amount of information.  With
more then
> a few of the usual cutover problems.  Sorry, but I can't identify this
> customer.

> Roger



- Show quoted text -



> > > >Why don't you stay with Pick

> > > >if you ask your local Pick reseller you will notice that Pick
> > systems has a
> > > >producte for this . To either stage it or not - choice is yours

> > > >Forgive bad English etc

> > > I don't want to move to Oracle. I want to stay with Pick.  Just
need
> > as much
> > > ammunition for the gun as possible.  Oracle has WAY to high of a
> > price tag, way
> > > too long of an implementation time, and probably alot less
> > maintainable.

> > What you can try is using Deja-News and the search engine.  I
remember
> > reading about a managed health care or insurance company in the
States
> > that were swayed to move from Pick to Oracle.

> > As I remember the story their share prices dropped from $50+ down to
> > about $10.  The thing that stuck in my mind was that one of the
company
> > directors was quoted as saying that the should have bought 200
> > selectric typewriters and hired a pool of typist to keep their cash
> > flow up.  It seems that the almost went out of business during the
> > transition.

> > And the Oracle 'gurus' were pounding their heads against the wall
> > trying to figure out the multi-values, sub-values, and the 'wrong'
data
> > types on various attributes.

> > The power behind Pick is the fact that it is very flexable and
fluid.
> > The shortcomings of Pick is that it is very flexable and fluid.

> > If a person isn't real sure of things, they can hang themselves
quite
> > quickly.

> > Best regards,

> > Dale

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Bill Hann » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00



Quote:> Oxford Health Care.
> I'm told they spent almost 5 years converting from Pick to Oracle.
> Their big losses were based on a decision to cut over to the new system
with
> out full editing functions enabled.

> Their clerks would enter batches, without online editing, which would then
> get rejected by a batch process requiring them to go back and fix it.  And
> of course there weren't enough people in the editing department (since
they
> didn't need them with pick) so a lot of batches piled up.  Maybe as much
as
> 6 months worth.

There was also a reporting problem (one would have thought Oracle was at
least good at reporting...) where they could not project claims volumes, and
a problem with billing where many groups did not receive bills for months.

Does anyone know if they actually moved completely off of Pick yet?

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Bill Hann » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00


...

Quote:> Pick is a very good language, if you setup your file structure
> correctly you should run just as fast then any other database in
> the market, pick got a bad rap because old programmers wrote a
> lot of spaghetti code and poor file structure.

I believe that file structure is fundamental to any efficient system -- Pick
most certainly included.  With the correct data relations and file
configuration, it is much more difficult to write bad code.  And bad code is
much easier to fix when the underlying file structure is robust.

Look at most any inefficient program, and I'll bet to fix it right, changes
will need to be made to the underlying files.

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Hans Fehlo » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Be prepared to have a dedicated high priced DBA for Oracle, and if your site
is large maybe 2.
Fact not fiction!

Hans Fehlow


> Agreed, you don't hear much about the success stories especially on
> this ng. So here's another 'failure' story. A company I used to work
> for announced that they were moving to oracle. When I found out, I
> quit. They are still 'moving' and I left more than 2 years ago.

> Dan;

> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:36:20 -0800, "Don Sprague"

> >There are many success and failure stories.  Most, IMHO, are based much
more
> >on the culture of the company than on the products.  Companies that make
> >successful transitions were diciplined shops that had programming
standards,
> >data dictionaries, requirement documents, etc. long before the
conversion.
> >Some had already normalized their data within the Pick environment.

> >The failures are those that had no dicipline to begin with, seldom
planned
> >what they were doing -- everything was a 'fire sale' -- and they they
wonder
> >why they failed at transitioning to another environment!!!  One thing to
> >keep in mind is that in Pick a "pile of junk" system can be kept running
for
> >decades, in Oracle it is really not an option.  A disciplined,
engineering
> >approach to systems development is an absolute requirement.



> >> Any stories, either good or bad, from converting from a Pick system to
an
> >> Oracle system, or the other direction, would be greatly appreciated

> >> Thanks in advance

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by George R Smit » Sat, 26 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Dan,
That company you left that was going to oracle are now going to Microsoft
SQL 7. Oracle to expensive.
 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by patrickpa.. » Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:00:00


I believe for any conversion from/to pick to a relation model requires:

#1: Prepare for a full re-write.  No conversion is really possible
because the underlying systems store information so differently
#2: Go get a professional that is highly skilled in the new system.
Your pick people will usually not be skilled enough in the relational
systems to really help (plus we usually hate them!)
#3: Get a good pick consultant to help you get data out of your old
system.  It is not difficult to do, but you do need somebody to help.
(But be careful, a good pickie will quickly fix any of the old problems
and you will find it harder and harder to justify the new system)
#4: Testing.  Do not.  I repeat, do not drop the old system until your
USERS tell you the new system is working.  Prepare a budject that can
afford both systems running side by side (with boths staffs) for awhile.

This model pretty much works for any conversion project.  The same
horror stories you hear about pick -> oracle, I have heard also about
Informix -> oracle.  It is not that anything is wrong with oracle, but
look at the reasoning usually behind any Database shift:

#1: Bugs in the current system
#2: Performance problems
#3: Idea that you are on old technology
#4: Support for the old system

For #1: How did bugs get in the old system.  Usually by the original
programmers, who were usually following the directives of the
customer.  The customer is usually going to give the same directives to
the new system (or the new system will be designed following the old
system), and therefore re-create the same bugs.
#2: Performance.  This one is easy.  Upgrade your damn servers every
once in awhile.  We are horrible with this in pick.  As you can see in
this news group, people are still running old 486 boxes.  While it is
nice that this still works, my pentium 450 runs rings around that box.
The likes of Oracle and informix will insist that you keep up in the
hardware department.
#3: Old technology.  No matter how cool the system looks, it is still
just code.  As for technology, Pick has pretty much catched up.  In
fact I believe it is right up there now that Web stuff is catching on,
XML for data transfer, etc.  Pick is right at home in these areas.  The
client side is now completely seperated (which Web clients, VB clients,
etc).  Plus with host systems like Linux having all the cool tools
available to pick (like perl, python, expect, etc), we have the ability
to do everthing the other platforms can.
#4: Support.  The support is out there.  But pick usually runs just
fine without a MIS group.  Therefore companies are not used to spending
money on this.  Plus a pick person will usually fix a problem pretty
fast.  While this was a strength, it also killed the Pool of pickies
available to companies.  The issue may also be that pick is so easy
most pickies have gone out and started companies.  Whichever one it is,
we need to start getting some better books and training material out
there.  This system is just too easy to use to be dropped for this
reason!

Ok, that was my 10 cents.  One other thing to consider is that
relational systems seem to have built in maintence required.  You will
usually have to hire:

#1: DBA (data base administer) - This person manages your tables and
makes sure they are optimized (index, etc)
#2: Systems Admin - This guy admin's your actual underlying OS and
network.
#3: Systems Programmer - This guy writes/maintains your code.

If you don't believe me, go to Dice.com and search the
Oracle/Informix/Sybase listings.  My father is a damn good Informix
programmer, but he couldn't tell you the first thing on how to
load/maintaine a Unix machine or the Informix Database.  But he can
code.  He has done alot of consulting for companies and has pretty much
come to the conclusion that most of Orace/Informix professionals are
specialized into these areas.  If you do find somebody that can do all,
they probably are not especially specialized in any particular area and
you will probably end up suffering for it.  We are starting to see this
now in Pick because we have been running on Unix platforms long
enough.  Most Unix/Pickies really couldn't qualify as Unix
Administrators.  We usually know enough to get pick working.

- Patrick

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Pick to Oracle/Oracle to Pick

Post by Peter Fals » Wed, 01 Mar 2000 04:00:00


...

Quote:>What sort of hardware, wiring (LAN or otherwise), and user hardware to
>interface with the main computer would be required for a like Oracle
>solution?  And what would be the cost of the software solution perform
>the same job?  And there's always the cost of extra IS people to handle
>the system to keep it tuned and running.

>Inquiring minds want to know.

>Dale

At the very least you'd want 5 disks (Oracle specifies this), a heap more
memory, and some spare cash to hire a DBA to tune the Oracle parameters.
 
 
 

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