(How do I price my FMP product?)

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Joel Shapir » Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:00:00



Hi

This isn't technically a FMP question, but rather a
developer (not Developer:-) question.  I hope it's ok
to post it here.

Having been exclusively developing in FMP for just over
a year now, I've started to get new requests for
projects that are the same as or very similar to
projects I've already developed.  So I've started
thinking about selling "products", either as-is or with
customizations.  However never having done it this way
(selling a system that's already developed), I have no
idea how to go about figuring out a price.

Does anyone have any tips on ways to fairly price my
work?  How do *you* do it?

(Generally, I charge hourly, starting off with a
proposal and an estimated development time.)

Thanks a lot...

-Joel

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Lynn All » Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:00:00



> Hi

> This isn't technically a FMP question, but rather a
> developer (not Developer:-) question.  I hope it's ok
> to post it here.

> Having been exclusively developing in FMP for just over
> a year now, I've started to get new requests for
> projects that are the same as or very similar to
> projects I've already developed.  So I've started
> thinking about selling "products", either as-is or with
> customizations.  However never having done it this way
> (selling a system that's already developed), I have no
> idea how to go about figuring out a price.

If, for example, the first customer paid $5000 for a solution...why is
it not worth the same amount to the second...third...etc?

Vertical market solutions which handle mission critical information can
be priced anywhere from $199 to the far stratosphere. Don't try to price
it on the commodity model, where one takes costs of production and
marketing, plus a markup, to get a cost for the product. Price it on the
VALUE model...what is it worth to the customer? How much time is it
going to save them...how is it going to change their lives?

I'm not saying you shouldn't drop a price a bit if you have to, but
don't take a solution one customer paid you $5000 to develop and turn
around and sell it for $299.  In one case, I sold to a customer at near
the same price of the custom solution, and included in the price 5 hours
of customization at no further charge.

Charge what the market will bear. Look for similar solutions and see
where you have to price to be competitive.  Ask a lot and see if you get
it. The worst that can happen is that you don't sell something you've
already been paid for. Ah, the wonders of free enterprise. ;)
--
Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training


 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Jame » Sun, 25 Jun 2000 04:00:00


Hi Joel -

By way of lending my advice, let me emphasize again something that Lynn
said.  I have my best success when I take the time to research the
competition and offer the prospective client ( or an existing client, for
that matter ) a solution that's a better value.  Software that does a better
job deserves a better price.  A client must make a decision between
custom-developed software and an adaptation of pre-developed vertical market
software, and I try to help them see the trade-offs.  I think the pricing of
vertical market packages is the best thing that ever happened to my
business, so it really helps to know the competition.

Hope this is helpful -
James



> > Hi

> > This isn't technically a FMP question, but rather a
> > developer (not Developer:-) question.  I hope it's ok
> > to post it here.

> > Having been exclusively developing in FMP for just over
> > a year now, I've started to get new requests for
> > projects that are the same as or very similar to
> > projects I've already developed.  So I've started
> > thinking about selling "products", either as-is or with
> > customizations.  However never having done it this way
> > (selling a system that's already developed), I have no
> > idea how to go about figuring out a price.

> If, for example, the first customer paid $5000 for a solution...why is
> it not worth the same amount to the second...third...etc?

> Vertical market solutions which handle mission critical information can
> be priced anywhere from $199 to the far stratosphere. Don't try to price
> it on the commodity model, where one takes costs of production and
> marketing, plus a markup, to get a cost for the product. Price it on the
> VALUE model...what is it worth to the customer? How much time is it
> going to save them...how is it going to change their lives?

> I'm not saying you shouldn't drop a price a bit if you have to, but
> don't take a solution one customer paid you $5000 to develop and turn
> around and sell it for $299.  In one case, I sold to a customer at near
> the same price of the custom solution, and included in the price 5 hours
> of customization at no further charge.

> Charge what the market will bear. Look for similar solutions and see
> where you have to price to be competitive.  Ask a lot and see if you get
> it. The worst that can happen is that you don't sell something you've
> already been paid for. Ah, the wonders of free enterprise. ;)
> --
> Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
> FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training


 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Rad Govi » Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:00:00


joel,

There is a copyright issue here.

If you have devoloped a solution for one company you own the rights and that
company cannot make modificatios without using you or getting permission
from you.

In return you have devoloped that solution for them and can't cut and paste
that code so to speak.

So the solution is that you just quote the job to the new customer and
develop it on their time e.g. you know how to do it now and there is nothing
stopping you to use that knowledge.

It might for example take you 10 hours to do instead of 20...only an
example.

The only time the copyright isn't yours is if you are an employee of the
company and you are doing it as part of your 9-5 job e.g Programmer etc,
or if you sign the rights over to that company if your are a contractor.

So if you use code which you have developed yourself say at home after
hours, you still own the code.

In that case to use your own code you say to the company you are developing
a solution for that you are using your own module(for lack of a better name)
and it will cost them say $5,000 to license it or it might take you three
times as long todevelop it at their cost, you still own the rights.

Rad.


> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

> Newsgroups: comp.databases.filemaker
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:38:30 GMT
> Subject: (How do I price my FMP product?)

> Hi

> This isn't technically a FMP question, but rather a
> developer (not Developer:-) question.  I hope it's ok
> to post it here.

> Having been exclusively developing in FMP for just over
> a year now, I've started to get new requests for
> projects that are the same as or very similar to
> projects I've already developed.  So I've started
> thinking about selling "products", either as-is or with
> customizations.  However never having done it this way
> (selling a system that's already developed), I have no
> idea how to go about figuring out a price.

> Does anyone have any tips on ways to fairly price my
> work?  How do *you* do it?

> (Generally, I charge hourly, starting off with a
> proposal and an estimated development time.)

> Thanks a lot...

> -Joel

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Lynn All » Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:00:00



> There is a copyright issue here.

> If you have devoloped a solution for one company you own the rights and that
> company cannot make modificatios without using you or getting permission
> from you.

> In return you have devoloped that solution for them and can't cut and paste
> that code so to speak.

I believe you're mixing two separate situations here.

One is ownership of copyright.

One is ownership and right to reuse and sell the code.

They are not reciprocal and DO NOT depend on one another in the way you
state. It all depends on what was stated in the contract with the first
customer for the custom solution. Authors and creators always own
copyright unless they specifically give or sell it to someone, or unless
they are working for hire (which usually means you are an employee of
the firm for which it was developed, not just a consultant.)

The right to own the code and re-sell it also resides with the author,
and unless it states in the contract with the first customer (or, once
again, if you are working-for-hire) that the author no longer has that
right, that the author transfers rights to the code to the client, the
author has the right to reuse and resell it.

If you have not granted copyright and ownership to the first company,
you can do what you wish with the code without reference to the first
company.  I specifically RETAIN copyright and the rights to re-use the
structure of the database in my contract.  If a customer wishes to buy
ownership of the code, as opposed to licensing a copy of the software,
we negotiate that, usually for a higher price. When that happens, I do
not reuse code, but rewrite it.

Copyright and intellectual property rights are pretty complex. Let's not
introduce too much confusion here. :)

--
Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Joe Harki » Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:00:00


The previous posts are correct that the author owns the copyright to
the solution.  But problems arise when dealing with a client.

Let me simplify the issue by changing the language.

Never speak of selling a solution. Speak of selling a license.

That's what you are doing. And, you can improve your legal position by
specifying (in writing, at the time you deliver the solution) the
terms of that license, such as defining the type and number copies
that may be made and how they may be used.

It also helps if you keep in mind that you can sell a disk or a allow
a download that contains a licensed solution (as in run-time versions)
but the buyer of that copy acquires no right to make additional copies
or sell them to any person unless you specifically state that in
writing.

Joe Harkins

______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.veryComputer.com/
 With Servers In California, Texas And *ia - The Worlds Uncensored News Source

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Joel Shapir » Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:00:00


Thanks Lynn, James, Rad, Joe for your responses.

(I most like Lynn's comment "Ask a lot and see if you get it. The worst that can
happen is that you don't sell something you've already been paid for." :-)   but
I really do appreciate all the comments on ownership and copyright issues, too.

Can anyone recommend a place where I can look at a good sample contract, with
delineated clauses about ownership/copyright/licensing issues?

Thanks again.

-Joel

p.s. Is it really true that a client doesn't have the rights to modify a system I
create?  That seems to go against why people like FMP in the first place - so
they can add little bits here and there as needed, without having to pay a
consultant for every little thing.



> > There is a copyright issue here.

> > If you have devoloped a solution for one company you own the rights and that
> > company cannot make modificatios without using you or getting permission
> > from you.

> > In return you have devoloped that solution for them and can't cut and paste
> > that code so to speak.

> I believe you're mixing two separate situations here.

> One is ownership of copyright.

> One is ownership and right to reuse and sell the code.

> They are not reciprocal and DO NOT depend on one another in the way you
> state. It all depends on what was stated in the contract with the first
> customer for the custom solution. Authors and creators always own
> copyright unless they specifically give or sell it to someone, or unless
> they are working for hire (which usually means you are an employee of
> the firm for which it was developed, not just a consultant.)

> The right to own the code and re-sell it also resides with the author,
> and unless it states in the contract with the first customer (or, once
> again, if you are working-for-hire) that the author no longer has that
> right, that the author transfers rights to the code to the client, the
> author has the right to reuse and resell it.

> If you have not granted copyright and ownership to the first company,
> you can do what you wish with the code without reference to the first
> company.  I specifically RETAIN copyright and the rights to re-use the
> structure of the database in my contract.  If a customer wishes to buy
> ownership of the code, as opposed to licensing a copy of the software,
> we negotiate that, usually for a higher price. When that happens, I do
> not reuse code, but rewrite it.

> Copyright and intellectual property rights are pretty complex. Let's not
> introduce too much confusion here. :)

> --
> Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
> FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training


 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Rad Govi » Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:00:00


Lynn,

I guess that might be the case in your situation where you have a contract
where you own the rights and it is stated in your contracts what yo can and
cannot do.

But l suggest you see your lawyer and ask the question.....because l have a
few years ago.

When l was in manufacturing and in entertainment and working with creative
people (l also put programmers in that catergory) and the copyright laws
have always been the same, unless they have changed without my knowledge.

The laws have always been the same whether l worked with graphic designers,
popstars, actors, photographers or whatever.

The creator owns the rights to the code, but the client owns and paid for
the time it took to develop the solution.

So for example if you are a customer and have just spent $50,000 dollars for
a solution do you think it would be right legally and morally that the
programmer can now go down the road and sell it to your competitor for half
the price.

Rad


> Newsgroups: comp.databases.filemaker
> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 03:00:48 GMT
> Subject: Re: (How do I price my FMP product?)


>> There is a copyright issue here.

>> If you have devoloped a solution for one company you own the rights and that
>> company cannot make modificatios without using you or getting permission
>> from you.

>> In return you have devoloped that solution for them and can't cut and paste
>> that code so to speak.

> I believe you're mixing two separate situations here.

> One is ownership of copyright.

> One is ownership and right to reuse and sell the code.

> They are not reciprocal and DO NOT depend on one another in the way you
> state. It all depends on what was stated in the contract with the first
> customer for the custom solution. Authors and creators always own
> copyright unless they specifically give or sell it to someone, or unless
> they are working for hire (which usually means you are an employee of
> the firm for which it was developed, not just a consultant.)

> The right to own the code and re-sell it also resides with the author,
> and unless it states in the contract with the first customer (or, once
> again, if you are working-for-hire) that the author no longer has that
> right, that the author transfers rights to the code to the client, the
> author has the right to reuse and resell it.

> If you have not granted copyright and ownership to the first company,
> you can do what you wish with the code without reference to the first
> company.  I specifically RETAIN copyright and the rights to re-use the
> structure of the database in my contract.  If a customer wishes to buy
> ownership of the code, as opposed to licensing a copy of the software,
> we negotiate that, usually for a higher price. When that happens, I do
> not reuse code, but rewrite it.

> Copyright and intellectual property rights are pretty complex. Let's not
> introduce too much confusion here. :)

> --
> Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
> FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training


 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Lynn All » Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:00:00



> So for example if you are a customer and have just spent $50,000 dollars for
> a solution do you think it would be right legally and morally that the
> programmer can now go down the road and sell it to your competitor for half
> the price.

See Joe Harkins excellent remarks higher in the thread. If you have sold
them a LICENSE, yes of course it's both morally and legally right that
you may sell another copy for any price you choose.  Microsoft made
billions by doing just that.

If you WORK FOR HIRE, and contractually give away (or sell for good $$)
your rights to resell and to own copyright and code, then of course it
is neither morally nor legally right to resell the solution.  I have
both kinds of clients, work for hire and straight license agreements.
My contracts with both spell it all out.

I will let you guess about my attitude toward developers who work
without contracts which expressly address these issues. Assumptions, in
the matter of copyright, ownership and reselling can come back to bite
you. I have had painful lessons in the same.

Paying for the time to create a solution does NOT automatically confer
ownership (with rights of resale or distribution) to the payee. For
instance, photographers, even when they take YOUR picture and you pay
them for it, own the rights to the images and their commercial
reproduction, unless they release those rights.

For an excellent article addressing just this issue, see:

http://www.realrates.com/contract.htm
--
Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Paul Brunea » Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:00:00



> Lynn,

> I guess that might be the case in your situation where you have a contract
> where you own the rights and it is stated in your contracts what yo can and
> cannot do.

> But l suggest you see your lawyer and ask the question.....because l have a
> few years ago.

> When l was in manufacturing and in entertainment and working with creative
> people (l also put programmers in that catergory) and the copyright laws
> have always been the same, unless they have changed without my knowledge.

This is off topic, but I'm curious...do you purposely use a lower case L
in place of a lower case I, or is it by accident?

PB

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Rad Govi » Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:00:00


just place the onus on the client....anyone who has something produced for
them should get a reelease from the owner

Rad....l found out the hard way


> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

> Newsgroups: comp.databases.filemaker
> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:43:22 GMT
> Subject: Re: (How do I price my FMP product?)

> Thanks Lynn, James, Rad, Joe for your responses.

> (I most like Lynn's comment "Ask a lot and see if you get it. The worst that
> can
> happen is that you don't sell something you've already been paid for." :-)
> but
> I really do appreciate all the comments on ownership and copyright issues,
> too.

> Can anyone recommend a place where I can look at a good sample contract, with
> delineated clauses about ownership/copyright/licensing issues?

> Thanks again.

> -Joel

> p.s. Is it really true that a client doesn't have the rights to modify a
> system I
> create?  That seems to go against why people like FMP in the first place - so
> they can add little bits here and there as needed, without having to pay a
> consultant for every little thing.



>>> There is a copyright issue here.

>>> If you have devoloped a solution for one company you own the rights and that
>>> company cannot make modificatios without using you or getting permission
>>> from you.

>>> In return you have devoloped that solution for them and can't cut and paste
>>> that code so to speak.

>> I believe you're mixing two separate situations here.

>> One is ownership of copyright.

>> One is ownership and right to reuse and sell the code.

>> They are not reciprocal and DO NOT depend on one another in the way you
>> state. It all depends on what was stated in the contract with the first
>> customer for the custom solution. Authors and creators always own
>> copyright unless they specifically give or sell it to someone, or unless
>> they are working for hire (which usually means you are an employee of
>> the firm for which it was developed, not just a consultant.)

>> The right to own the code and re-sell it also resides with the author,
>> and unless it states in the contract with the first customer (or, once
>> again, if you are working-for-hire) that the author no longer has that
>> right, that the author transfers rights to the code to the client, the
>> author has the right to reuse and resell it.

>> If you have not granted copyright and ownership to the first company,
>> you can do what you wish with the code without reference to the first
>> company.  I specifically RETAIN copyright and the rights to re-use the
>> structure of the database in my contract.  If a customer wishes to buy
>> ownership of the code, as opposed to licensing a copy of the software,
>> we negotiate that, usually for a higher price. When that happens, I do
>> not reuse code, but rewrite it.

>> Copyright and intellectual property rights are pretty complex. Let's not
>> introduce too much confusion here. :)

>> --
>> Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
>> FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training


 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Rad Govi » Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:00:00


I use a lower case "l" as in "if l" because as far as l know thats how it
used to be when typing lessons were taught in schools, but l use a capital
"L" at the beginning of a word

Rad....so l guess it's habit now.


> Organization: Special-Lite, Inc.
> Newsgroups: comp.databases.filemaker
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:02:58 -0400
> Subject: Re: (How do I price my FMP product?)


>> Lynn,

>> I guess that might be the case in your situation where you have a contract
>> where you own the rights and it is stated in your contracts what yo can and
>> cannot do.

>> But l suggest you see your lawyer and ask the question.....because l have a
>> few years ago.

>> When l was in manufacturing and in entertainment and working with creative
>> people (l also put programmers in that catergory) and the copyright laws
>> have always been the same, unless they have changed without my knowledge.

> This is off topic, but I'm curious...do you purposely use a lower case L
> in place of a lower case I, or is it by accident?

> PB

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Lynn All » Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:00:00



> I use a lower case "l" as in "if l" because as far as l know thats how it
> used to be when typing lessons were taught in schools, but l use a capital
> "L" at the beginning of a word

We used to use lower case "l" because there was no numeral 1 (one) on
the keyboard in older typewriters. (you know the ones that didn't even
have a plug!). It was never used in place of "I."

Upper case "I" has always been used for first person personal pronoun.
Perhaps it's time for a little retraining. After all, we stopped
double-spacing after periods. ;)  Mostly.
--
Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training

 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Joel Shapir » Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:00:00


is it never ok to double space after periods nowadays?  :-(


> > I use a lower case "l" as in "if l" because as far as l know thats how it
> > used to be when typing lessons were taught in schools, but l use a capital
> > "L" at the beginning of a word

> We used to use lower case "l" because there was no numeral 1 (one) on
> the keyboard in older typewriters. (you know the ones that didn't even
> have a plug!). It was never used in place of "I."

> Upper case "I" has always been used for first person personal pronoun.
> Perhaps it's time for a little retraining. After all, we stopped
> double-spacing after periods. ;)  Mostly.
> --
> Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
> FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training


 
 
 

(How do I price my FMP product?)

Post by Lynn All » Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:00:00



> is it never ok to double space after periods nowadays?  :-(

We're getting a little far afield, but here's the scoop on that. The
extra space after a period is a visual cue to define the "sentence
pause" after the end of the sentence. When using digital methods of
print production (eg. your computer) the computer knows that a larger
space is to be placed after any period because that's the way the
type-kerning is designed. Typewriters didn't know this. So we hit the
spacebar twice.

The retraining is, in my case at least, ongoing. If I don't watch
myself, I will hit the spacebar more than once. ;)  

You know you're really old when at the end of every line you keep
whacking the right side of your keyboard.

(a joke for the old folks on the list) ;)

--
Lynn Allen              Allen & Allen Semiotics
FSA Associate           Filemaker Consulting & Training

 
 
 

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I can't find any information on how to use these commands.

I only want to show the first 25 items on a query using the -max=25 command.
I also want to include a next/previous navigation button to show the next 25
records or the previous 25 records.

The only thing that the cdml reference is showing is

[FMP-LinkFirst]First set of records.[/FMP-LinkFirst]

But am I suppose to generate the first page of record using
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instead of the [fmp-record] (I've tried that and it didn't work).  Where and
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Tx for any input.

Yves

Devenir immortel et mourir

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