Very Computer

> > I am just getting started in SQL and wonder what type of certification
> > is most widely accepted ? Also am interested in XML... any
> > SQL-specific advice for getting certified in both SQL and XML ?
> > Thanks in advance, Alan

> None. No hiring manager I have ever met, myself included, could care less.

> And I say this from the position of teaching a certificate program myself.
> The twist is that at the University of Washington we do not teach people
> to pass a paper certification test with multiple choice or True/False
> answers. The certificate is the university's own and to obtain it requires
> almost a year of hands-on experience with Oracle 8i or 9i. The object of
> the Oracle Application Development Certificate program at the university
> is the same as the object of a certificate from the School of Medicine.
> Not to be able to pass some test somewhere else ... but rather to be able
> to actually do the work.

> Daniel Morgan
> http://www.extension.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/oad/oad_crs.asp

> I would have to disagree with Daniel on this one.
> While I don't think a certificate is better than real life experience,
> it definitely doesn't hurt.
> I know a lot of places that require for you to be certified,
> especially consulting companies, where they have to show their
> customers that they know more than the company next door.
> It shows your employer that you are trainable and enjoy continuing
> your education. According to Salary Surveys, it makes a difference on
> how much you get paid.
> Also, it might be what makes a difference next time you apply
> somewhere and the other person has the same qualifications you do.

> For MS certifications check this link out www.microsoft.com/mcp

> Hope that helps.

> BZ

> > > I am just getting started in SQL and wonder what type of certification
> > > is most widely accepted ? Also am interested in XML... any
> > > SQL-specific advice for getting certified in both SQL and XML ?
> > > Thanks in advance, Alan

> > None. No hiring manager I have ever met, myself included, could care less.

> > And I say this from the position of teaching a certificate program myself.
> > The twist is that at the University of Washington we do not teach people
> > to pass a paper certification test with multiple choice or True/False
> > answers. The certificate is the university's own and to obtain it requires
> > almost a year of hands-on experience with Oracle 8i or 9i. The object of
> > the Oracle Application Development Certificate program at the university
> > is the same as the object of a certificate from the School of Medicine.
> > Not to be able to pass some test somewhere else ... but rather to be able
> > to actually do the work.

> > Daniel Morgan
> > http://www.extension.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/oad/oad_crs.asp

> > Hello,

> > I would have to disagree with Daniel on this one.
> > While I don't think a certificate is better than real life experience,
> > it definitely doesn't hurt.
> > I know a lot of places that require for you to be certified,
> > especially consulting companies, where they have to show their
> > customers that they know more than the company next door.
> > It shows your employer that you are trainable and enjoy continuing
> > your education. According to Salary Surveys, it makes a difference on
> > how much you get paid.
> > Also, it might be what makes a difference next time you apply
> > somewhere and the other person has the same qualifications you do.

> > For MS certifications check this link out www.microsoft.com/mcp

> > Hope that helps.

> > BZ

> > > > I am just getting started in SQL and wonder what type of certification
> > > > is most widely accepted ? Also am interested in XML... any
> > > > SQL-specific advice for getting certified in both SQL and XML ?
> > > > Thanks in advance, Alan

> > > None. No hiring manager I have ever met, myself included, could care less.

> > > And I say this from the position of teaching a certificate program myself.
> > > The twist is that at the University of Washington we do not teach people
> > > to pass a paper certification test with multiple choice or True/False
> > > answers. The certificate is the university's own and to obtain it requires
> > > almost a year of hands-on experience with Oracle 8i or 9i. The object of
> > > the Oracle Application Development Certificate program at the university
> > > is the same as the object of a certificate from the School of Medicine.
> > > Not to be able to pass some test somewhere else ... but rather to be able
> > > to actually do the work.

> > > Daniel Morgan
> > > http://www.extension.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/oad/oad_crs.asp

> My only problem with the MS course that I attended was that it somewhat
> oversold itself. Looking for a DBA type course I found the 'administering
a
> sql server 2000 database' course. It did indeed get the software up and
> running. However it claims that

> This course provides students with the knowledge and skills required to
> install, configure, administer, and troubleshoot the client-server
database
> management system of Microsoft SQL ServerT 2000

> It did very well indeed on the install,configure,administer section and
> almost zero on 'troubleshoot'. In contrast the equivalent Oracle courses
had
> very helpful instructors who took the time to explain how things might
> actually work in practice, what you would monitor and what sort of things
to
> consider changing. Obviously much of this is down to the individual
> instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

> --
> Niall Litchfield
> Oracle DBA
> Audit Commission UK
> *****************************************
> Please include version and platform
> and SQL where applicable
> It makes life easier and increases the
> likelihood of a good answer

> ******************************************

> > Obviously much of this is down to the individual
> > instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

> Absolutely, completely agree with you. In fact, probably the best technical
> instructor I ever had was in an Oracle DBA course ... of course, I should
> also mention that the worst technical instructor I ever had was in an Oracle
> Data Warehousing course. The Oracle DBA instructor added to the course
> material. The Oracle Data Warehousing course "recited" the text, and was
> unable to even comprehend questions asked about the material.

> Having done a (very) little bit of technical teaching myself, I know the
> problems faced by teachers. Perhaps the best example I can offer is that I
> once taught a DTS class. Two of the students were very advanced DTS
> programmers. They had been told that the class would be a "boot camp" and
> were expecting an intensive, in-depth examination of the inner workings of
> DTS. The course was actually an intensive, "shallow" examination of the
> features supported by DTS (in other words, the standard MS course
> curriculum). The intent of most courses is to expose the students to the
> abilities of a product, rather than make them experts in the product.
> Basically, the intent is, more than anything, to teach the students "how to
> think" in terms of using the product.

> What these two had apparently overlooked was that the term "boot camp" comes
> from the armed forces, and it takes civilians and produces **Privates**, not
> Generals. These two were looking to become Generals. I might add that I had
> outlined the class objectives at the beginning of the course, and it was at
> this time that they mentioned that they were expecting something different.
> Unfortunately, they were not the only two students in the class, and the
> other students had never used DTS before, so it was impossible to change the
> course to their liking. Of course, you can imagine how these two rated both
> the class and my teaching, when in fact it was, I feel confident in stating,
> their misunderstanding of the course objectives that was at fault ... but I
> probably digress here    :-)

> Getting back on track, perhaps ... class descriptions are a bit like resumes
> ... one emphasizes the positives and glosses over the negatives. I will
> certainly accept that most class descriptions ... regardless of vendor ...
> oversell themselves.

> I don't know if you have ever taught a class, but I can tell you that a
> knowledgeable instructor usually knows way more than the class material.
> However there is a list of topics that are supposed to get covered during
> the allocated time span, and even if the instructor wants to add (valuable)
> material to the course material, there is always a clock ticking, and this
> constraint usually has to be factored in when considering what can be added
> ... not to mention that it seems there is always at least one student who
> just doesn't seem to "get it" and slows down the class.

> Teaching is a lot more difficult than it might look ... I know, since I've
> been there and done that   :-)

> -------------------------------------------
> BP Margolin
> Please reply only to the newsgroups.
> When posting, inclusion of SQL (CREATE TABLE ..., INSERT ..., etc.) which
> can be cut and pasted into Query Analyzer is appreciated.

> > > Bottom line, IMHO, when you walk out of Microsoft SQL Server training,
> you
> > > have a better understanding of how to get SQL Server up and running.
> > Again,
> > > IMHO, when you walk out of Oracle training, you now have to go to
> another
> > > training class to understand Windows or Solaris or Unix or whatever.

> > My only problem with the MS course that I attended was that it somewhat
> > oversold itself. Looking for a DBA type course I found the 'administering
> a
> > sql server 2000 database' course. It did indeed get the software up and
> > running. However it claims that

> > This course provides students with the knowledge and skills required to
> > install, configure, administer, and troubleshoot the client-server
> database
> > management system of Microsoft SQL ServerT 2000

> > It did very well indeed on the install,configure,administer section and
> > almost zero on 'troubleshoot'. In contrast the equivalent Oracle courses
> had
> > very helpful instructors who took the time to explain how things might
> > actually work in practice, what you would monitor and what sort of things
> to
> > consider changing. Obviously much of this is down to the individual
> > instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

> > --
> > Niall Litchfield
> > Oracle DBA
> > Audit Commission UK
> > *****************************************
> > Please include version and platform
> > and SQL where applicable
> > It makes life easier and increases the
> > likelihood of a good answer

> > ******************************************

>>Niall,

>>>Obviously much of this is down to the individual
>>>instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

>>Absolutely, completely agree with you. In fact, probably the best technical
>>instructor I ever had was in an Oracle DBA course ... of course, I should
>>also mention that the worst technical instructor I ever had was in an Oracle
>>Data Warehousing course. The Oracle DBA instructor added to the course
>>material. The Oracle Data Warehousing course "recited" the text, and was
>>unable to even comprehend questions asked about the material.

>>Having done a (very) little bit of technical teaching myself, I know the
>>problems faced by teachers. Perhaps the best example I can offer is that I
>>once taught a DTS class. Two of the students were very advanced DTS
>>programmers. They had been told that the class would be a "boot camp" and
>>were expecting an intensive, in-depth examination of the inner workings of
>>DTS. The course was actually an intensive, "shallow" examination of the
>>features supported by DTS (in other words, the standard MS course
>>curriculum). The intent of most courses is to expose the students to the
>>abilities of a product, rather than make them experts in the product.
>>Basically, the intent is, more than anything, to teach the students "how to
>>think" in terms of using the product.

>>What these two had apparently overlooked was that the term "boot camp" comes
>>from the armed forces, and it takes civilians and produces **Privates**, not
>>Generals. These two were looking to become Generals. I might add that I had
>>outlined the class objectives at the beginning of the course, and it was at
>>this time that they mentioned that they were expecting something different.
>>Unfortunately, they were not the only two students in the class, and the
>>other students had never used DTS before, so it was impossible to change the
>>course to their liking. Of course, you can imagine how these two rated both
>>the class and my teaching, when in fact it was, I feel confident in stating,
>>their misunderstanding of the course objectives that was at fault ... but I
>>probably digress here    :-)

>>Getting back on track, perhaps ... class descriptions are a bit like resumes
>>... one emphasizes the positives and glosses over the negatives. I will
>>certainly accept that most class descriptions ... regardless of vendor ...
>>oversell themselves.

>>I don't know if you have ever taught a class, but I can tell you that a
>>knowledgeable instructor usually knows way more than the class material.
>>However there is a list of topics that are supposed to get covered during
>>the allocated time span, and even if the instructor wants to add (valuable)
>>material to the course material, there is always a clock ticking, and this
>>constraint usually has to be factored in when considering what can be added
>>... not to mention that it seems there is always at least one student who
>>just doesn't seem to "get it" and slows down the class.

>>Teaching is a lot more difficult than it might look ... I know, since I've
>>been there and done that   :-)

>>-------------------------------------------
>>BP Margolin
>>Please reply only to the newsgroups.
>>When posting, inclusion of SQL (CREATE TABLE ..., INSERT ..., etc.) which
>>can be cut and pasted into Query Analyzer is appreciated.

>>>>Bottom line, IMHO, when you walk out of Microsoft SQL Server training,

>>you

>>>>have a better understanding of how to get SQL Server up and running.

>>>Again,

>>>>IMHO, when you walk out of Oracle training, you now have to go to

>>another

>>>>training class to understand Windows or Solaris or Unix or whatever.

>>>My only problem with the MS course that I attended was that it somewhat
>>>oversold itself. Looking for a DBA type course I found the 'administering

>>a

>>>sql server 2000 database' course. It did indeed get the software up and
>>>running. However it claims that

>>>This course provides students with the knowledge and skills required to
>>>install, configure, administer, and troubleshoot the client-server

>>database

>>>management system of Microsoft SQL ServerT 2000

>>>It did very well indeed on the install,configure,administer section and
>>>almost zero on 'troubleshoot'. In contrast the equivalent Oracle courses

>>had

>>>very helpful instructors who took the time to explain how things might
>>>actually work in practice, what you would monitor and what sort of things

>>to

>>>consider changing. Obviously much of this is down to the individual
>>>instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

>>>--
>>>Niall Litchfield
>>>Oracle DBA
>>>Audit Commission UK
>>>*****************************************
>>>Please include version and platform
>>>and SQL where applicable
>>>It makes life easier and increases the
>>>likelihood of a good answer

>>>******************************************

>I agree with all that you've said. One of the advantages of teaching at a
>university is the ability to write my own curriculum and to be as creative as I
>wish. The first hour of the first class I devote to introducing myself and
>having the students introduce themselves ... just as Oracle does at the
>beginning of their training classes.

>The difference is that I take notes on my student's levels of experience,
>background, and experience ... and then customize the instruction and examples
>to the class. To a class of SQL Server retreads examples are phrased in terms of
>SQL Server. For the mainframers examples are different. Report writers get
>examples that make sense from their perspective.

>One thing I refuse to allow into the classroom is PowerPoint slides. They are
>totally lacking in spontaneity and are, to me, just a dumbing down of the
>material.

>Daniel Morgan

> I agree with you about the stultifying effects of most powerpoint
> presentations, but on occasion a clear diagram with judicious use of
> color etc. can go a long way to explaining a concept. Unfortunately the
> drive by many education providers to standardize course content  leads
> to the bulk packs of slides which mostly contains lists of phrases
> ("talking points") but very little actual information.

> Martin Doherty

> Daniel Morgan wrote:

> >BP Margolin wrote:

> >>Niall,

> >>>Obviously much of this is down to the individual
> >>>instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

> >>Absolutely, completely agree with you. In fact, probably the best technical
> >>instructor I ever had was in an Oracle DBA course ... of course, I should
> >>also mention that the worst technical instructor I ever had was in an Oracle
> >>Data Warehousing course. The Oracle DBA instructor added to the course
> >>material. The Oracle Data Warehousing course "recited" the text, and was
> >>unable to even comprehend questions asked about the material.

> >>Having done a (very) little bit of technical teaching myself, I know the
> >>problems faced by teachers. Perhaps the best example I can offer is that I
> >>once taught a DTS class. Two of the students were very advanced DTS
> >>programmers. They had been told that the class would be a "boot camp" and
> >>were expecting an intensive, in-depth examination of the inner workings of
> >>DTS. The course was actually an intensive, "shallow" examination of the
> >>features supported by DTS (in other words, the standard MS course
> >>curriculum). The intent of most courses is to expose the students to the
> >>abilities of a product, rather than make them experts in the product.
> >>Basically, the intent is, more than anything, to teach the students "how to
> >>think" in terms of using the product.

> >>What these two had apparently overlooked was that the term "boot camp" comes
> >>from the armed forces, and it takes civilians and produces **Privates**, not
> >>Generals. These two were looking to become Generals. I might add that I had
> >>outlined the class objectives at the beginning of the course, and it was at
> >>this time that they mentioned that they were expecting something different.
> >>Unfortunately, they were not the only two students in the class, and the
> >>other students had never used DTS before, so it was impossible to change the
> >>course to their liking. Of course, you can imagine how these two rated both
> >>the class and my teaching, when in fact it was, I feel confident in stating,
> >>their misunderstanding of the course objectives that was at fault ... but I
> >>probably digress here    :-)

> >>Getting back on track, perhaps ... class descriptions are a bit like resumes
> >>... one emphasizes the positives and glosses over the negatives. I will
> >>certainly accept that most class descriptions ... regardless of vendor ...
> >>oversell themselves.

> >>I don't know if you have ever taught a class, but I can tell you that a
> >>knowledgeable instructor usually knows way more than the class material.
> >>However there is a list of topics that are supposed to get covered during
> >>the allocated time span, and even if the instructor wants to add (valuable)
> >>material to the course material, there is always a clock ticking, and this
> >>constraint usually has to be factored in when considering what can be added
> >>... not to mention that it seems there is always at least one student who
> >>just doesn't seem to "get it" and slows down the class.

> >>Teaching is a lot more difficult than it might look ... I know, since I've
> >>been there and done that   :-)

> >>-------------------------------------------
> >>BP Margolin
> >>Please reply only to the newsgroups.
> >>When posting, inclusion of SQL (CREATE TABLE ..., INSERT ..., etc.) which
> >>can be cut and pasted into Query Analyzer is appreciated.

> >>"Niall Litchfield" <n-litchfi...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:3dc29256$0$8510$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net...

> >>>"BP Margolin" <bpma...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:3dbf5075_1@news1.prserv.net...

> >>>>Bottom line, IMHO, when you walk out of Microsoft SQL Server training,

> >>you

> >>>>have a better understanding of how to get SQL Server up and running.

> >>>Again,

> >>>>IMHO, when you walk out of Oracle training, you now have to go to

> >>another

> >>>>training class to understand Windows or Solaris or Unix or whatever.

> >>>My only problem with the MS course that I attended was that it somewhat
> >>>oversold itself. Looking for a DBA type course I found the 'administering

> >>a

> >>>sql server 2000 database' course. It did indeed get the software up and
> >>>running. However it claims that

> >>>This course provides students with the knowledge and skills required to
> >>>install, configure, administer, and troubleshoot the client-server

> >>database

> >>>management system of Microsoft SQL ServerT 2000

> >>>It did very well indeed on the install,configure,administer section and
> >>>almost zero on 'troubleshoot'. In contrast the equivalent Oracle courses

> >>had

> >>>very helpful instructors who took the time to explain how things might
> >>>actually work in practice, what you would monitor and what sort of things

> >>to

> >>>consider changing. Obviously much of this is down to the individual
> >>>instructor but I wasn't over impressed.

> >>>--
> >>>Niall Litchfield
> >>>Oracle DBA
> >>>Audit Commission UK
> >>>*****************************************
> >>>Please include version and platform
> >>>and SQL where applicable
> >>>It makes life easier and increases the
> >>>likelihood of a good answer

> >>>******************************************

> >I agree with all that you've said. One of the advantages of teaching at a
> >university is the ability to write my own curriculum and to be as creative as I
> >wish. The first hour of the first class I devote to introducing myself and
> >having the students introduce themselves ... just as Oracle does at the
> >beginning of their training classes.

> >The difference is that I take notes on my student's levels of experience,
> >background, and experience ... and then customize the instruction and examples
> >to the class. To a class of SQL Server retreads examples are phrased in terms of
> >SQL Server. For the mainframers examples are different. Report writers get
> >examples that make sense from their perspective.

> >One thing I refuse to allow into the classroom is PowerPoint slides. They are
> >totally lacking in spontaneity and are, to me, just a dumbing down of the
> >material.

> >Daniel Morgan