About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Vyas » Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:32:27



I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one is
not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
there anyone else to agree with me on this?
--
HTH,
Vyas
Check out my page for SQL Server, ASP, VB resources,Replication FAQ and
MORE:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/index.htm
Review of SQL Server 2000's "Federated database servers" feature:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/federated.htm
Interesting code samples (include SQL stored procedures, VB programs):
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/code.htm
 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Mary Chipma » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:36:40


I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
use the Profiler, just what it does.

-- Mary
Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/



Quote:>I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
>2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one is
>not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
>there anyone else to agree with me on this?


 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Djana Milto » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 02:46:16


Usability of Profiler is a top issue for Microsoft in the next version of
the product.  We'd love to hear any precise or specific feedback that you
have on the subject.

Documentation is a problem.. Got it.
Discoverability is a problem.  Ok, but of what, for example?
Poor GUI design.  Noted, but what could we do to make it less poor?

Thanks,
Djana


> I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
> Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
> already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
> another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
> Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
> use the Profiler, just what it does.

> -- Mary
> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/



> >I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
> >2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one
is
> >not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
> >there anyone else to agree with me on this?

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Euan Garde » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:02:41


Adding to Djana's post I am surprised by your comments on QA as just about
every report has been happy with it. So what don't you like? Please also cc

there.

Thx

-Euan


> I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
> Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
> already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
> another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
> Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
> use the Profiler, just what it does.

> -- Mary
> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/



> >I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
> >2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one
is
> >not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
> >there anyone else to agree with me on this?

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Jo Doku » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:04:15


Well I can not say I agree. SQL Query Analyzer is better then ever and
compared to the *I get with Oracle (SQL*Plus) and IBM DB2 it is just
great. Object Browser, templates, scripting, a real scalable grid, a T-SQL
SP de* (for FREE) although hard to find, block indent, block comment
in/out, full Unicode support (Oracle does not even know how to spell that
for SQL*Plus).

But maybe too much for an Access brain like you, no offense, but SQL Server
is much more then the next level of Access. You probably also run SQL Server
in Window 98 instead of a real OS.

Profiler is a high-end tool for power-users, if you do not understand what
it is about you should not use it (that is why it is available for sysadmin
role members only :). It provides detailed information that if you do not
understand the architecture of SQL Server, it is useless anyhow. Besides
that it scales much better then in 7.0.

I also have some Profiler beef, but not on the UI, if you do not like the
UI, use the T-SQL calls. That is what my beef is about. I wish they had not
changed to these stupid SP calls, of which I now have to call hundreds to
thousands to get something done, instead of 30 XP calls in 7.0. Are were did
directly storing information to a useful table format go???? The person who
created this probably never analyzed a trace in its whole live.

But please lets not turn SQL Server into the next Access and keep it a nice
high-end database instead of a dinky toy.

Jo Dokus
-- Real DBA's use the command line tool, you have 100% control and you have
to know what you are doing!


> I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
> Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
> already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
> another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
> Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
> use the Profiler, just what it does.

> -- Mary
> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
> http://www.veryComputer.com/



> >I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
> >2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one
is
> >not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
> >there anyone else to agree with me on this?

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Vyas » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:27:38


I'm just wondering why Microsoft changed the Profiler UI in SQL Server 2000?
The 2000 Profiler's UI is very poor when compared to 7.0 Profiler. I'll be
really glad if we switch back to the 7.0 Profiler's UI in the next release
of SQL Server.

Here are some issues, of course not serious ones, but they are very
important from usability point of view:

 - I simply just can't see all the traces that I have created (I used to get
a list of traces when I click 'run' button in 7.0)
 - Can't hilight/select events from the trace with the mouse
 - Just couldn't figure out how to create a trace. Save it. And run the same
trace at a later point in time.
 - Over all, I don't find it friendly, and it doesn't have rich UI like it
did in 7.0. I request you to revert back to 7.0's UI, if it's possible!
--
HTH,
Vyas
Check out my page for SQL Server, ASP, VB resources,Replication FAQ and
MORE:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/index.htm
Review of SQL Server 2000's "Federated database servers" feature:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/federated.htm
Interesting code samples (include SQL stored procedures, VB programs):
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/code.htm


Usability of Profiler is a top issue for Microsoft in the next version of
the product.  We'd love to hear any precise or specific feedback that you
have on the subject.

Documentation is a problem.. Got it.
Discoverability is a problem.  Ok, but of what, for example?
Poor GUI design.  Noted, but what could we do to make it less poor?

Thanks,
Djana


> I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
> Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
> already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
> another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
> Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
> use the Profiler, just what it does.

> -- Mary
> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/



> >I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
> >2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one
is
> >not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
> >there anyone else to agree with me on this?

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Vyas » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:34:37


I don't have any issues with QA. I am happy with 2000's QA.
--
HTH,
Vyas
Check out my page for SQL Server, ASP, VB resources,Replication FAQ and
MORE:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/index.htm
Review of SQL Server 2000's "Federated database servers" feature:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/federated.htm
Interesting code samples (include SQL stored procedures, VB programs):
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/code.htm


Adding to Djana's post I am surprised by your comments on QA as just about
every report has been happy with it. So what don't you like? Please also cc

there.

Thx

-Euan


> I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
> Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
> already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
> another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
> Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
> use the Profiler, just what it does.

> -- Mary
> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/



> >I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
> >2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one
is
> >not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
> >there anyone else to agree with me on this?

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Neil Pik » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:12:07


Vyas - I like it as much as the SQL 7 one - especially the new object browser
function.  What about it don't you like?

 Neil Pike MVP/MCSE.  Protech Computing Ltd
 Reply here - no email
 SQL FAQ (484 entries) see
 http://forumsb.compuserve.com/gvforums/UK/default.asp?SRV=MSDevApps
 (faqxxx.zip in lib 7)
 or www.ntfaq.com/Articles/Index.cfm?DepartmentID=800
 or www.sqlserverfaq.com
 or www.mssqlserver.com/faq

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Vyas » Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:08:25


Neil, I am not complaning about Query Analyzer. I like it too, especially
the object browser, built-in de*, and scripting features!

The original posting was about the Profiler.
--
HTH,
Vyas
Check out my page for SQL Server, ASP, VB resources,Replication FAQ and
MORE:
http://www.veryComputer.com/
Review of SQL Server 2000's "Federated database servers" feature:
http://www.veryComputer.com/
Interesting code samples (include SQL stored procedures, VB programs):
http://www.veryComputer.com/


Vyas - I like it as much as the SQL 7 one - especially the new object
browser
function.  What about it don't you like?

 Neil Pike MVP/MCSE.  Protech Computing Ltd
 Reply here - no email
 SQL FAQ (484 entries) see
 http://www.veryComputer.com/
 (faqxxx.zip in lib 7)
 or www.ntfaq.com/Articles/Index.cfm?DepartmentID=800
 or www.sqlserverfaq.com
 or www.mssqlserver.com/faq

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Mary Chipma » Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:40:06


Quote:>Discoverability is a problem.  Ok, but of what, for example?

-- Creating a new trace, for starters. the concept of creating a
template vs. creating a trace vs. running a trace is confusing for
those not already familiar with the concepts.

-- When you launch profiler, it opens on a blank window. when you
click on Help to try to figure out whether to choose file, New or
File, Open, BOL loads on the Profiler topics that tell you what
profiler can do, and how to launch it, but not what you need to do
after you launch it.

-- If a trace is running, and you go into File, Properties, there's
nothing to tell you that you need to stop the trace in order for the
options to be enabled.

Quote:>Poor GUI design.  Noted, but what could we do to make it less poor?

-- Implement a context-sensitive right-click menu. All  windows apps
have them, even QA (whose poor GUI design is another pet peeve) -- why
not Profiler?

-- Bring back a revamped wizard. In v7 this was very helpful for
beginners.

-- Have two Help menu options, one that has jumps to using the
Profiler UI, and another for more advanced topics.

Profiler is a great tool, indispensable for debugging client
applications. I'm sure more people would use it if they only knew how.

Thanks for listening,

-- Mary
Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Mary Chipma » Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:41:28


i reported by concerns during the beta, both by email to devs and in
the ng, but it was too late by then.

-- Mary
Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/

On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:02:41 -0800, "Euan Garden"


>Adding to Djana's post I am surprised by your comments on QA as just about
>every report has been happy with it. So what don't you like? Please also cc

>there.

>Thx

>-Euan



>> I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of cool new features in the
>> Profiler 2000, but they are almost undiscoverable unless you are
>> already familiar with the tool and know where to find them. IMO it's
>> another example of poor GUI design (along with the new Query
>> Analyzer). Adding insult to injury, there's nothing in BOL on *how*
>> use the Profiler, just what it does.

>> -- Mary
>> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
>> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672319446/mcwtechnologies/



>> >I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
>> >2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one
>is
>> >not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
>> >there anyone else to agree with me on this?

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Mary Chipma » Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:50:12


The problem with the UI in QA is more undiscoverable features -- for
example, why is the T-SQL De*, arguably the most important new
feature in 2000, buried so many levels deep, and doesn't even appear
an an option on the top-level menus? Sure, *we* all know where to find
it, but users just coming to the tool have no clue where it lives.
another gripe is the shortcut keys used for debugging and the UI in
general don't match those of VB (which most developers are familiar
with).

I have no  complaint about the 2000 feature set, which is terrific.
they're just hard to find and hard to use if you don't already know
how to get to them.

For newbies, SQL Server itself is a tough nut to crack. the GUI design
of the graphical tools should be consistent with other microsoft
windows applications that newcomers are already familiar with. In
short, the graphical tools should make things easier for newbies, not
become a separate challenge all on their own. Just my $.02.

-- Mary
Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
http://www.veryComputer.com/

On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:12:07 GMT, Neil Pike


>Vyas - I like it as much as the SQL 7 one - especially the new object browser
>function.  What about it don't you like?

> Neil Pike MVP/MCSE.  Protech Computing Ltd
> Reply here - no email
> SQL FAQ (484 entries) see
> http://www.veryComputer.com/
> (faqxxx.zip in lib 7)
> or www.ntfaq.com/Articles/Index.cfm?DepartmentID=800
> or www.sqlserverfaq.com
> or www.mssqlserver.com/faq

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Gert E.R. Draper » Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:32:46


The de* shortcuts match the Visual Studio shell default de*
shortcuts, which is the shortcut set moving forward. Besides that Visual
Studio has configurable shortcuts which is something we could not bite off
for this release, but will be in the next release. (BTW: There is not even
consistency between VB6 and VC6 and VI6 out of the box).

And yes we know about the fact the De* is hard to find, that will get
fixed.

-GertD


> The problem with the UI in QA is more undiscoverable features -- for
> example, why is the T-SQL De*, arguably the most important new
> feature in 2000, buried so many levels deep, and doesn't even appear
> an an option on the top-level menus? Sure, *we* all know where to find
> it, but users just coming to the tool have no clue where it lives.
> another gripe is the shortcut keys used for debugging and the UI in
> general don't match those of VB (which most developers are familiar
> with).

> I have no  complaint about the 2000 feature set, which is terrific.
> they're just hard to find and hard to use if you don't already know
> how to get to them.

> For newbies, SQL Server itself is a tough nut to crack. the GUI design
> of the graphical tools should be consistent with other microsoft
> windows applications that newcomers are already familiar with. In
> short, the graphical tools should make things easier for newbies, not
> become a separate challenge all on their own. Just my $.02.

> -- Mary
> Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server
> http://www.veryComputer.com/

> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:12:07 GMT, Neil Pike

> >Vyas - I like it as much as the SQL 7 one - especially the new object
browser
> >function.  What about it don't you like?

> > Neil Pike MVP/MCSE.  Protech Computing Ltd
> > Reply here - no email
> > SQL FAQ (484 entries) see
> > http://www.veryComputer.com/
> > (faqxxx.zip in lib 7)
> > or www.ntfaq.com/Articles/Index.cfm?DepartmentID=800
> > or www.sqlserverfaq.com
> > or www.mssqlserver.com/faq

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Erland Sommarsk » Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:43:26



>The problem with the UI in QA is more undiscoverable features -- for
>example, why is the T-SQL De*, arguably the most important new
>feature in 2000, buried so many levels deep, and doesn't even appear
>an an option on the top-level menus?

Well, innocent users don't start debugging by mistake amd goes for
a cup of coffee between BEGIN and COMMIT TRANSACTION. (He said, himself
who went to a meeting with an active debugging session on 6.5 with
locks on tempdb.sysobjects and the lot on a development server!)

Quote:>another gripe is the shortcut keys used for debugging and the UI in
>general don't match those of VB (which most developers are familiar
>with).

But they do match those of Visual Server, which I mush appreciate.
The shortcut keys in Visual Basic for debugging I don't like at all.

Let's see, are there any GUI things I can complain on in QA? Hm,
I would like an shortcut key to switch between the Editor and Results
tab (I have my QA set up akin to ISQL/W of 6.5.) And today I had
an experience where I had three databases starting with the same
15 letters or so, and couldn't see their full name in the combo
for databases.

And, ah, it would be nice with somewhat lower precision of floats.
QA is much more keen on displaying 1.520000000000023 as that
rather than 1.52 which ISQL/W do.

--

 
 
 

About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

Post by Umachandar Jayachandra » Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:22:34


Quote:>> I would like an shortcut key to switch between the Editor and Results tab

    It has always been there :-) Use {F6} to cycle between the various tabs
in a window. Similarly, {SHIFT} + {F6} will reverse the direction of
switching. Again, you can use {CTRL} + {TAB} to switch between the open
query windows. Using {SHIFT} will again reverse direction.

Quote:>> And today I had an experience where I had three databases starting with
>> the same 15 letters or so, and couldn't see their full name in the combo
>> for databases.

    Yes, I don't like the combo size too. Even on a monitor with 1600 res,
it shows hardly 10 chars. You can do {CTRL} + {U} to get the list of
databases with the current one highighted.

Quote:>> And, ah, it would be nice with somewhat lower precision of floats.
>> QA is much more keen on displaying 1.520000000000023 as that
>> rather than 1.52 which ISQL/W do.

    You can do this too! What I usually do is setup my preferences in
{Control Panel} + {Regional Options}. Then go to QA\Options\Connections &
check "use regional settings....". Now you get all those pretty display
instead of the QA's default.

--
Umachandar Jayachandran
SQL Resources at http://www.umachandar.com/resources.htm
( Please reply only to newsgroup. )

 
 
 

1. About Profiler in SQL Server 2000...

I find it so uncomfortable using the Profiler that comes with SQL Server
2000. I really liked the SQL Server 7.0's Profiler. I think the new one is
not friendly to use and is confusing. UI is bad too. Is it just me or is
there anyone else to agree with me on this?
--
Vyas
Check out my page for SQL Server, ASP, VB resources,Replication FAQ and
MORE:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/index.htm
Review of SQL Server 2000's "Federated database servers" feature:
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/federated.htm
Interesting code samples (include SQL stored procedures, VB programs):
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/code.htm

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