Can I get rich???

Can I get rich???

Post by S. Mikec » Wed, 28 Jun 1995 04:00:00



I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including
games)???
At this time I'm still a student, so I don't have much free time for
programming, but managed to learn BASIC, Pascal, C++, FORTRAN-77, Prolog,
Clipper and Assembly language for 80x87, 6502 and famous Z80.
Do I need something more???

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 *           CROATIA           *             C R O A T I A              *
 *        Croatia Only:        ******************************************

 ************************************************************************

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Jeff W » Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:00:00



writes:
Quote:

>I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including
>games)???
>At this time I'm still a student, so I don't have much free time for
>programming, but managed to learn BASIC, Pascal, C++, FORTRAN-77,
Prolog,
>Clipper and Assembly language for 80x87, 6502 and famous Z80.
>Do I need something more???

If it's a good game/application, of course you can!  It all depends
though, the possibility is there, but it takes a hell of a lot of time
to produce a quality program that sells really well.  Also, I wouldn't
expect to get rich any time soon.  You shouldn't program just because
you want to get rich, do it because it's fun!

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Kent.Dalt » Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:00:00



Quote:Jeff> writes:
>>  I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including
>> games)???  At this time I'm still a student, so I don't have much free time
>> for programming, but managed to learn BASIC, Pascal, C++, FORTRAN-77,
Jeff> Prolog,
>> Clipper and Assembly language for 80x87, 6502 and famous Z80.  Do I need
>> something more???

Jeff> If it's a good game/application, of course you can!  It all depends
Jeff> though, the possibility is there, but it takes a hell of a lot of time
Jeff> to produce a quality program that sells really well.  

This is incorrect. It's similar to someone asking can I play professional
football? And you responding If you can run really fast, of course you can!
There are so many factors that effect a game developers bottom line that
even developing a killer quality product is not terribly directly related
to their personal financial bottom line.

Jeff> Also, I wouldn't
Jeff> expect to get rich any time soon.  You shouldn't program just because
Jeff> you want to get rich, do it because it's fun!

If you are looking at entry level positions in stable companies you probably
can't even expect to make enough to eat well. If you are starting your own
company the chances of making huge quantities of money is better but your
chances of declaring bankruptcy are much better still.

Welcome to the real world. The fast money in the Video Games has been made,
it's an industry now. I have heard that * and Real Estate for Little or No
Money Down are good ways to make the quick bux right now.

Good Luck.
--
/**************************************************************************/

/* Symbios Logic, Inc.           * Phone: (303) 223-5100 X-9319           */
/* 2001 Danfield Ct. MS470A      *   FAX: (303) 225-4829                  */
/* Fort Collins, Colorado 80525  * Formerly known as NCR Microelectronics */
/**************************************************************************/
..  Like I always say -- nothing can beat the BRATWURST
 here in DUSSELDORF!!

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by William Edward Woo » Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:00:00



> Welcome to the real world. The fast money in the Video Games has been made,
> it's an industry now. I have heard that * and Real Estate for Little or No
> Money Down are good ways to make the quick bux right now.

My parents are in Real Estate.

In California, the money to be made in Real Estate is gone; there is no
more money to be made. (Unless you are a con-man telling people how to
make money on Real Estate.)

To be honest, there never really was <<big>> <<big>> money to be made
in *any* field. Sometimes you can strike it extremely well, and
sometimes you can strike it "rich." But for the most part the successful
people you see around you never struck it rich. My parents made a lot
of money in Real Estate by being architects, and working damned hard for
almost 20 years. And *finally* they are just now seeing their reward
for 20 _Years_ of hard work.

And let's be honest. If someone handed you a million dollars tomorrow,
and you never made a dime again--is that really big big money? Over your
lifetime, that million dollars only comes out to be around $20,000/year.

The trick is not to make it rich. The trick is to make a very good living.
The trick is not to make a million dollars next year; the trick is to
make $100,000/year on a fairly regular basis after paying a few years
of dues to the industry.

And the answer to that is yes, you can make a good living writing
software.

However, you need to be a good programmer (a little better than the
others around here), you need to distinguish yourself with having
developed a cool product, you need to work very hard (just slacking
around and coding 4 hours a day, and playing darts with your co-workers
for 4 hours a day just doesn't cut it), and you need to have a
professional attitude. And you need to spend a lot of time just
working hard, keeping your nose clean, and moving up when the
opportunity presents itself.

Good luck to you in your pursuits.

                                                        - Bill

Who has been at it for 7 years, and expects to be at it for 3 more
before he finally sees light at the end of his tunnel. (Of course
if it takes longer, it takes longer. But at least the ride is nice.)

--

In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.veryComputer.com/~woody
337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.4' W:118.15'

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Mark Feldma » Thu, 29 Jun 1995 04:00:00



Quote:(William Edward Woody) writes:
>And let's be honest. If someone handed you a million dollars tomorrow,
>and you never made a dime again--is that really big big money? Over
>your lifetime, that million dollars only comes out to be around
>$20,000/year.

Are you kidding? Money begats money my friend! Invest it wisely and
you'd never have to work again!

Quote:>The trick is not to make it rich. The trick is to make a very good
>living. The trick is not to make a million dollars next year; the
>trick is to make $100,000/year on a fairly regular basis after paying
>a few years of dues to the industry.

I wouldn't say it's the "trick", but it's sure as hell easier.

Quote:>However, you need to be a good programmer (a little better than the
>others around here), you need to distinguish yourself with having
>developed a cool product, you need to work very hard (just slacking
>around and coding 4 hours a day, and playing darts with your
>co-workers
>for 4 hours a day just doesn't cut it), and you need to have a
>professional attitude. And you need to spend a lot of time just
>working hard, keeping your nose clean, and moving up when the
>opportunity presents itself.

Too true. The only advise I can give is to take risks. I took some big
risks early on. Most of them amounted to naught, but I learnt alot
along the way and eventually one of them paid off big time.

Quote:>                                                        - Bill
>Who has been at it for 7 years, and expects to be at it for 3 more
>before he finally sees light at the end of his tunnel. (Of course
>if it takes longer, it takes longer. But at least the ride is nice.)

Mark Feldman

Who has also been at it for 7 years and will be for many more to come.

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by William Edward Woo » Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:00:00




> >And let's be honest. If someone handed you a million dollars tomorrow,
> >and you never made a dime again--is that really big big money? Over
> >your lifetime, that million dollars only comes out to be around
> >$20,000/year.

> Are you kidding? Money begats money my friend! Invest it wisely and
> you'd never have to work again!

Yes, if you invest it.

[Read what I wrote again. "If someone handed you a million dollars
tomorrow, and you never made a dime again."]
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quote:>>The trick is not to make it rich. The trick is to make a very good
>>living. The trick is not to make a million dollars next year; the
>>trick is to make $100,000/year on a fairly regular basis after paying
>>a few years of dues to the industry.

> I wouldn't say it's the "trick", but it's sure as hell easier.

But it *is*, in the sense that most people never seem to figure this out.

Who are the rich people in our society? Are all of the rich
people those who won the lottery (of one form or another), and those
who inherited it from rich relatives?

No.

The "rich" are people who earned all of their money and property
and wealth, a dollar at a time, over the course of years, even
_decades_.

But most people never figure this out. Most people try to get rich
quickly, or look for an easy way to make a lot of money. Many people
(including quite a few of my friends) think that the way to get
rich is to wait around until an easy ride comes along, and then
take the quick rich route to fortune and fame. And in the meantime,
they seem to go nowhere, and do nothing to improve themselves or
their situation.

That's why I call it a 'trick.' Because there is absolutely no trick
to it at all; just a lot of hard work. Unfortunately, no-one seems to
get it.

                                                - Bill

Who'se *seen* people go from riches to rags because they made a whole lot
of money early on, and then spent it all.

--

In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.4' W:118.15'

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Scott Ma » Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:00:00



<I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including games)???

No. Not unless you have an idea and market savvy. And if you have
those, you might not need the programming skills to get rich. The
way to get rich is to start a company.

<At this time I'm still a student, so I don't have much free time for
<programming, but managed to learn BASIC, Pascal, C++, FORTRAN-77, Prolog,
<Clipper and Assembly language for 80x87, 6502 and famous Z80. Do I need
<something more???

If you aren't at risk of failing out because you can't seem to tear
yourself away from your latest hack, you might not have what it takes
to make for first millions in programming... :)

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by William Edward Woo » Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:00:00




> <I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including games)???

> No. Not unless you have an idea and market savvy. And if you have
> those, you might not need the programming skills to get rich. The
> way to get rich is to start a company.

If you want to get broke real fast, declaring bankrupcy, with the IRS
breathing down your throat as you let go of five angry workers,
start your own company.

Nothing is free in this world. Nothing.

And nothing is easy.

But hard work usually pays off, if you are *smart* about it.

                                                - Bill

--

In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.4' W:118.15'

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by the_hun.. » Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:00:00


[ Followups out of rec.games.programmer to alt.cynicism  (Is there a
better place?) ]


Quote:> Yes, if you invest it.

> [Read what I wrote again. "If someone handed you a million dollars
> tomorrow, and you never made a dime again."]
>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can't you say "oops I said something stupid, sorry."? Far from defending
your reputation, you come off as a smug, self-centered ego-fragile twit.

Quote:> But it *is*, in the sense that most people never seem to figure this out.

> Who are the rich people in our society? Are all of the rich
> people those who won the lottery (of one form or another), and those
> who inherited it from rich relatives?

> No.

> The "rich" are people who earned all of their money and property
> and wealth, a dollar at a time, over the course of years, even
> _decades_.

That's the upper middle class, not the upper class.

Do you want to know how you make a _lot_ of money? By piggybacking on
other people's work. Getting a percentage of work you didn't do.

Another way is government largesse, of course. For instance, the FCC
charges $0 for radio and TV bandwidth -- it's all already snapped up in
every major market, of course.

Making a lot of money isn't that hard if

        *       that is your single big goal
        *       you're halfway intelligent.
        *       You have good salesmanship skills.
        *       your ethics are second rate or less. No higher than the
                "conventional" level (3) on the ethical scale.
        *       you start off at least upper middle class.

Honest work is not a factor -- sad but true.

Of course, one can have an rare _non-interchangeable_ skill, such as a
sports figure or "name" actor. That _does_ take work, but it also takes
lottery-style luck.

--
"Official truths are often powerful illusions."
  -- John Pilger, _Distant_Voices_, 1992

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Rainer Dey » Fri, 30 Jun 1995 04:00:00


: I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including
: games)???
: At this time I'm still a student, so I don't have much free time for
: programming, but managed to learn BASIC, Pascal, C++, FORTRAN-77, Prolog,
: Clipper and Assembly language for 80x87, 6502 and famous Z80.
: Do I need something more???

If you are really really REALLY good, then yes, you can get rich.  The
guys from id got rich from writing Doom.  However, aproximately 99.99%
of all programmers are less successful.  If you think you can get rich
writing games, you need to read any books you can find on (3D)
graphics, code optimization, etc..  You also need to understand what
makes a game fun.  Then you need to spend years practicing your skills
until you are just about perfect.  Then you need to find equally
skilled artists, musicians, etc. until you have a team.  Then you write
your game.  Make sure it is original, creative, and fun.  If you are
lucky, you are now rich.  If not, try again.

--
+----------------------------------------------+

| "The Earth shall inherit the meek" - Carcass |
+----------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by William Edward Woo » Sat, 01 Jul 1995 04:00:00



> [ Followups out of rec.games.programmer to alt.cynicism  (Is there a
> better place?) ]

Oh, no you don't! We started here, we're going to finish it here.
(Or at least until it stops being relevant to the discussion of risk
and reward in the real world--relevant to those looking to get
started in the game programming industry.)


> > Yes, if you invest it.

> > [Read what I wrote again. "If someone handed you a million dollars
> > tomorrow, and you never made a dime again."]
> >                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Can't you say "oops I said something stupid, sorry."? Far from defending
> your reputation, you come off as a smug, self-centered ego-fragile twit.

Because frankly I did not say something stupid.

When I said "If someone handed you a million dollars tomorrow, and you
never made a dime again, then in the scope of your life, it is not
a lot of money--working out to be around $20,000/year," what I meant
to say and write was "If someone handed you a million dollars tomorrow,
and you never made a dime again, then in the scope of your life, it is
not a lot of money--working out to be around $20,000/year."

Quite literally I was trying to put a million dollars into perspective
across the length of a person's life.

Yes, you can put money to work for you. But I have *personally* seen
people who were handed a great deal of money singularly fail to
properly deal with the money. They didn't invest it, they didn't
properly appreciate how little the money is across the duration of
their lives; they would just waste the money on a huge house and
a huge car, and by the time they were done, there wasn't enough money
to invest to make enough return to maintain their lifestyle.

And I have seen plenty of people saying things like "what I would do
with a million dollars? Buy a really hot sports car." Get real! If you
do that, then you won't be able to invest your money, now will you?

True, money makes more money. But only if you are smart, and you put
your money to work for you wisely. There are plenty of opportunities
that will make you more money, but as many of them fail (and lose
your operating capital). And (like work), there really is no free
lunch. Money creates money only if you risk it. Otherwise, the money's
long-term value will never increase over the rate of inflation, and
by investing in a zero-risk investment and living off the interest you
would have been better off working a job at $20,000/year.

But that was not the point of my post.

Now, am I going to apologise for something I ment to say, simply because
you failed to understand what I was saying?

Absolutely not.

Quote:>> The "rich" are people who earned all of their money and property
>> and wealth, a dollar at a time, over the course of years, even
>> _decades_.

> That's the upper middle class, not the upper class.

> Do you want to know how you make a _lot_ of money? By piggybacking on
> other people's work. Getting a percentage of work you didn't do.

Marxism.

What you've described is marxism.

The problem with marxist thinking is that it fails to take into account
the factor or element of risk. The bourgoise class in marxist theory
were simply class exploiters--piggybacking their wealth on the backs
of the poor prolotariat working class.

What Marx failed to get is the _real_ capital value of risk. That is,
it is worth money to take the element of _risk_ and buy and sell it.
(Marx would have been seriously troubled with our modern-day commodities
exchange boards.)

When you "piggyback" on other people's work, what are you really doing?
First, you are assuming the risk of the other person's instability
of moving from job to job when you hire them. In exchange, you get
"rewarded" or "punished" accordingly--that is, by buying the risk of
their unemployment, you can then reap the reward of that risk through
capital gain.

If there was no risk, then why do people look to make a career? Why
don't they just go out in the world on their own as consultants and
free-lance people? (Marx would have said it's because the prolotariat
were 'oppressed' by a political system that brainwashed them. Remember,
Marx never actually went out and interviewed people to find out what
their motivations were; he was a philosopher, not a social scientist.
Without the idea of risk advoidance (read: security), there is no other
excuse for a person mindfully volunteering to give his life to be
an employee.)

Second, when you "piggyback" on other people's work, you actually add
the management of several other factors which makes that person's work
have value in the market. True, a programmer makes the software that
we buy, but when we go to a store and buy a box of software, we buy
more than just the program. We also buy the box (and manufacture of
the box, the art, etc), we buy the instructions (and the manufacture
of the book, and the writing of the book), and the floppy disk (and
the creation of the disk, and the R&D on making better floppy disks),
and a whole host of other things I won't list here.

While we have penty of examples of people who avoid this (ID Software's
DOOM comes to mind), most of the software we buy was part of a package
that included plenty of value-added products which themselves were
not software.

That management (which really is the management of risk, not the management
of employees) is a valuable service; otherwise, how would we all get
together and put together a package as a unified effort? How would we
know what part we were working on? And how would we be able to
concentrate on getting the job done if we were constantly wondering
about the risk that our managers and the company were taking in us to
actually produce the product?

Quote:>Honest work is not a factor -- sad but true.

Pessimist.

(Everyone I know who clawed up the ladder into fabulous wealth by
lying, cheating and stealing are now all being indited by the FBI.
Honest. [They were "friends" of my family, who are in the building
industry.])

                                                        - Bill

Well, it may not be directly related to game programming, but hell;
the discussion on risk is applicable to those thinking of going out
and getting a job, IMHO.

--

In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.4' W:118.15'

--

In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.4' W:118.15'

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Kent.Dalt » Sat, 01 Jul 1995 04:00:00



Scott> <I'm wondering can I get rich writing commercial software (including
Scott> games)???

Scott> No. Not unless you have an idea and market savvy. And if you have
Scott> those, you might not need the programming skills to get rich. The way
Scott> to get rich is to start a company.

Exactly. This is one of the points I was trying to make. No matter how good
you are, some professions only pay so much.

Idiots look at the picture of John Carmack of Doom fame in Computer *
World standing next to his fancy Sports Car and think he made a lot of cash
because he was a great programmer. Those dudes didn't make a lot of money
because they are great programmers, those guys made a lot of money because
they own the company that made Doom. If they had been say working at LucasArts
they'd be the guys that designed the game that made the owners of LucasArts a
shitload of money, instead.
--
/**************************************************************************/

/* Symbios Logic, Inc.           * Phone: (303) 223-5100 X-9319           */
/* 2001 Danfield Ct. MS470A      *   FAX: (303) 225-4829                  */
/* Fort Collins, Colorado 80525  * Formerly known as NCR Microelectronics */
/**************************************************************************/
I want to so HAPPY, the VEINS in my neck STAND OUT!!

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by Steven Webste » Sun, 02 Jul 1995 04:00:00


The rec.games.programmer FAQ
Revision 1.26

Quote:> Oh, no you don't! We started here, we're going to finish it here.

This  is a FAQ  for the usenet group  rec.games.programmer.  This is  mainly
intended for people new to this group but anyone should read it.  Note: This
will be posted to anybody who posts stupid questions to rec.games.programmer

Quote:> What you've described is marxism.

What you've described is in no way relevant to games programming.  

        void rec.games.programmer(void)
        {
                while !(some_tit_posts_something_irrellevant)
                {
                        useful_discussion_about_games_programming();
                }

                /*
                 * Some*has now posted something irrelevant
                */
                all_tits_come_out_of_woodwork();
                loads_of_crap_discussion(Subject irrelevant);

                /*
                 * Everyone is a bit pissed off by this point
                 */
                moan = "This group should be moderated, stop posting crap,
                              let's talk about games programming";
                everyone_else_posts(moan);

                /*
                 * Recurse, ad infinitum...
                 */    
                rec.games.programmer()
        };

Can we try and keep this sort of "Can I get rich ???" argument out of a group, that
fundamentally, is supposed to promote healthy discussion of the best way to implement
algorithms and techniques for programming games.....

Perhaps someone could provide a highly optimised version of the above algorithm in
assembly, and someone else could produce a clumsy, too much compiler overhead,
C++ OO implementation :*)  Maybe we could have a worst implementation
of r.g.p algorithm competition.  And you're not allowed to use Fastgraph and it
has to be 8 bytes long.

:-)

Let's talk about games programming.....

    _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
   _/ Steven Webster                     _/                            _/

 _/ http://www.veryComputer.com/~steven _/                            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by William Edward Woo » Sun, 02 Jul 1995 04:00:00



> > Oh, no you don't! We started here, we're going to finish it here.

> This  is a FAQ  for the usenet group  rec.games.programmer.  This is  mainly
> intended for people new to this group but anyone should read it.  Note: This
> will be posted to anybody who posts stupid questions to rec.games.programmer

> > What you've described is marxism.

> What you've described is in no way relevant to games programming.  

[rest deleted]

When a discussion goes beyond it's proper scope to the point where people
get irritated, then people start posting "moaning" noises.

The signal to noise ratio then drops with all of those moaning noises.

But look! So far, you're the only one who moaned.

I hate to break the news to you, but there are quite a lot of people here
who seem to be interested in this "can I make money in this field"
discussion. Not because they want to get rich, mind you; but because
they want to see if they can make an honest and profitable living
in a field which they want to work in.

The discussion of marxism? I left it there (even though it belonged
in an economic or political discussion group) because it clears up
a misperception that a lot of people have: that when you work for
an employer, he's not exploiting you; he's taking the risk that you
can turn profitable work in exchange for the security of a regular
salary. A lot of people forget that when you go out on your own,
you stand a much larger change of succeeding. But you also stand
a much larger chance of starving, too.

And judging by my e-mail on this matter, that point is one that
a lot of people were happy to have seen explained from an economic
standpoint.

                                                - Bill

[Next time, moan in e-mail. It's less ego building, but more effective.]

--

In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
337 W. California #4  |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
Glendale, CA 91203    |  ICBM:   N:34.4' W:118.15'

 
 
 

Can I get rich???

Post by ande.. » Mon, 03 Jul 1995 04:00:00



Quote:> > [ Followups out of rec.games.programmer to alt.cynicism  (Is there a
> > better place?) ]

> Oh, no you don't! We started here, we're going to finish it here.

Oh yeah, this has SO much to do with game programming. Get it off the
group. And you, William Edward Woody, are a class one * for
deliberately keeping this thread in an irrelevant group. You know what?
He (she?) was right, you ARE a "self-centered ego-fragile twit." You'd
rather stroke your ego in public. Grow up.

A.L.

 
 
 

1. What is Rich Gortatowsky?

After reading these post from Rich, and re-reading an old article about
Ractor, I'm not so sure that this isn't a program that we are all
responding to...

:)

Steve

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: It's me that's been a shadowing your dog... |   Pragmatic Designs         :
:                                        10cc |  I *AM* the company!        :
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2. Problem with swinstall (different to article before)

3. $$ BECOME RICH SOON $$ PLEASE READ THIS

4. 3C OPL EMULATOR FOR W95

5. !Rich. Adams?

6. Cirrus Logic 5426 SVGA Trouble

7. DOS/UNIX Text --> Graphic/Sound Rich Windows Apps

8. FYI: Computer Games at Work

9. getting DirectX to work

10. Getting Those .OBJs!

11. getting started with programing

12. Getting accurate fps using GetTickCount

13. 3Dfx OpenGL getting fullscreen ?