Very Computer

Hi,

  I have a couple of newbie questions about AS/400's. But
let met first explain what I need:

- Ethernet: TCP/IP, socket library (and access through C),
            ethernet connection. AS/400 should be fully
            accesibly through the ethernet connection:
            backups, software installation etc.
- Compilers: C, Cobol, RPG, Java.

I tried to find what I need through the IBM homepage and
the homepages of some AS/400 vendors. What I ended up with
is the following two choices:

150 server       $7,995
ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
ILE C            $1,000 (*)
ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
Java               free
               +-------
                $10,995 ex. VAT

170              $6,995
ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
ILE C            $1,000 (*)
ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
Java               free
               +-------
                 $9,995 ex. VAT

(*) Don't know the list price, so I am just guessing.

1) What I do not understand is why the base system (150) is more
expensive than the 170. I read the specs of both systems, and
I have to conclude that the 170 is cheaper, faster and more
expandable. I came up with a number of arguments:
- The 170 is on its way out and is being dumped (don't laugh).
- The 150 server has a lot of extra hardware and software,
  this could explain the price difference to some extent.
  But I doubt we will be needing much of it:
  - A tape backup. Could backups be made through ethernet ?
  - A CD-ROM. We have CD-ROM's on other machines with ethernet
    connection, so the general question is is full ethernet
    access possible ?
  - The 150 server has an ethernet card, but the 170 has PCI
    slots and a PCI ethernet card costs less than $50 these days.
  - BasePak Software. The 170 has no software at all ? No
    OS even ? What would the essential system software cost ?
    Can the software be supplied on CD-ROM ?

2) Does software compiled on a 150 run on a 170 ? If not, which
   platform is the biggest ? Also, is cross-compiling on either
   of the two platforms possible ?

3) What does "Software Tier", like "P05", "P10" and "P20"
   mean exactly ?

It looks as if the 150 was designed to be used as a single
central machine, because of the CD-ROM and tape backup and
the 170 more as a network machine ?

Regards,
  Jan

Hoi Jan,

1a. Backups can't be made via ethernet.  For user data and other stuff it is
possible, however you need to save it first to a savefile.  For other data
as OS, security, configuration, ... this isn't possible.  BTW, how would you
restore it when the system has lost a crucial element regarding the network.

1b. CD-roms can't be NET USED to talk in PC terms.  For loading the OS, you
need a CD-rom locally attached to the AS/400.  Not knowing pricing details,
but a CD-ROM is a requieremnt these days, so I wonder why it isn't included
in the 170 by default.

1c. The slots are indeed PCI... but this doesn't mean you can insert any PCI
card.  An AS/400 ethernet PCI card is still quite expensive compared to $50.

1d. No idea... I'm just a techie :-)

2. OS/400 still runs every program written on OS/400 V1.  While this is not
exactly true, it comes close.  It's definitely not a hardware issue, and as
far as releases are concerned, both the 150 and 170 can run the latest V4R4.
In addition, backwards compiling (cross compiling) is possible.  (see
TGTRLS... target release option)

3. Tiers are software categories, and determine the price of additional
software like compilers.  The same compiler will therefore cost you more on
a bigger machine (ie. tier).

The 150 is intended as a small machine, with no upgrade path.  Also software
subscription (ie. the fact that you pay a certain amount and get all OS
upgrades free the next 3 year) is not available on the 150.  Why the 170 is
cheaper is not clear to me (but I think you're not comparing exactly the
same)... but once again.... I'm a technie and don't deal with money :-)

Kind regards,
Paul
-------------
Hi,

  I have a couple of newbie questions about AS/400's. But
let met first explain what I need:

- Ethernet: TCP/IP, socket library (and access through C),
            ethernet connection. AS/400 should be fully
            accesibly through the ethernet connection:
            backups, software installation etc.
- Compilers: C, Cobol, RPG, Java.

I tried to find what I need through the IBM homepage and
the homepages of some AS/400 vendors. What I ended up with
is the following two choices:

150 server       $7,995
ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
ILE C            $1,000 (*)
ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
Java               free
               +-------
                $10,995 ex. VAT

170              $6,995
ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
ILE C            $1,000 (*)
ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
Java               free
               +-------
                 $9,995 ex. VAT

(*) Don't know the list price, so I am just guessing.

1) What I do not understand is why the base system (150) is more
expensive than the 170. I read the specs of both systems, and
I have to conclude that the 170 is cheaper, faster and more
expandable. I came up with a number of arguments:
- The 170 is on its way out and is being dumped (don't laugh).
- The 150 server has a lot of extra hardware and software,
  this could explain the price difference to some extent.
  But I doubt we will be needing much of it:
  - A tape backup. Could backups be made through ethernet ?
  - A CD-ROM. We have CD-ROM's on other machines with ethernet
    connection, so the general question is is full ethernet
    access possible ?
  - The 150 server has an ethernet card, but the 170 has PCI
    slots and a PCI ethernet card costs less than $50 these days.
  - BasePak Software. The 170 has no software at all ? No
    OS even ? What would the essential system software cost ?
    Can the software be supplied on CD-ROM ?

2) Does software compiled on a 150 run on a 170 ? If not, which
   platform is the biggest ? Also, is cross-compiling on either
   of the two platforms possible ?

3) What does "Software Tier", like "P05", "P10" and "P20"
   mean exactly ?

It looks as if the 150 was designed to be used as a single
central machine, because of the CD-ROM and tape backup and
the 170 more as a network machine ?

Regards,
  Jan

       The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
       This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
       my employer, Merck & Co., Inc.  All responsibility for the statements
       made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
       sender.

You can check the configuration I have on my page for an AS/400 170. They do
have smaller 170 processors now.  http://www.ts400.com/config.html I know
the prices have changed since I bought mine, they went lower.

I do not think the 170 is on its way out, it would more likely be the 150.

You can not just but PC PCI cards and disk drives in an AS/400.

I provide access to an AS/400 over the internet. Right now I only have RPG,
but should have Cobol and C soon.  The first month is free and then $25.00
USD a month.

--
John Ross

WWW.NETSHARE400.COM (Internet Access to an AS/400)

Jan,

Avoid the 150 like the plague. It is a special type of licensing and
will cause you a lot of grief. Go for the 170. It is more powerful,
scales better, etc. The software you create on either system will run on
any RISC AS/400. The processor group (P05, P10, etc.) defines the
general category of system and is used by IBM (and lots of us software
vendors) to price software. You can see the processor group by using the
WRKLICINF command on the AS/400. You need to get your hardware from IBM
- ignore the fact that there is a PCI interface. The CD is for loading
software from IBM and others. It is not writable. You will need a tape
drive with the system. A QIC drive is typical for these lower end
systems.

Patrick

--
IBM AS/400 communications, FTP automation, and network security
software and consulting services.

http://www.patownsend.com

it is true that the 150 does not qualify for software subscription, but.....  
a upgrade for the 150 software lists at $495 (street price lower)  and that is
less then one year software subscription.  thus i disagree, for a lot of people
the 150 is a value choice.

IMHO

http://www.michsoft.com

Joseph H. Le Blanc, CCP

While your point of the 150 being a value for many people is true, buyers
should be aware that model 150 owners are treated differently in many ways
from owners of all other models.  For starters, IBM did not initially
disclose to the public that the 150 would play by a different set of rules
from all other models.  Because many of us who bought 1-2 years ago were so
outspoken about this, they have gotten better about disclosing these
differences, but I still see anouncements that make no mention of the 150,
yet we are excluded.

While the cost of a 150 software upgrade may be considered a value, it was
more than double the current price before so many of us complained about not
being told before purchasing that we would be charged differently from other
owners.  Also, when you consider that IBM has sometimes released 3-4
upgrades in year, those on the software subscription received 3-4 upgrades
for one annual price while 150 owners had to pay 3-4 times.

I'm not suggesting that the 150 is not a value.  I'm just suggesting that
interested buyers carefully read the fine print in all announcements and
definitely talk to several 150 owners before making a commitment.  IBM still
does not fully disclose ALL of the differences for a 150 owner, and business
partners (with an inside line) are often surprised too.  My business parter
sold me a disk drive upgrade with shipping and IBM installation included.
I, and my business partner, were quite surprised when IBM said that disk
drive upgrades are a customer installed option on a 150.  I don't believe
you will find these types of issues documented in any IBM literature or
announcements.

Regards,
John Kennedy

Installing disk drives is not limited to the 150, I did it on my 170.

I thought IBM came out with a smaller 170 to replace the 150. Is this not
the case?

John Ross

WWW.NETSHARE400.COM (Internet Access to an AS/400)

Hi,

sorry you are backwards. The 150 is out. The 170 is newer than the 150 and
the 170 is being expanded and upgraded. They just recently did major changes
to the 170. growth is right thru to a dual processor model.

Teir pricing is system software that is based on the "processor" size. The
bigger and more powerful the machine, the more expensive the system software
is.

No..you don't want to do backup thru your ethernet adapter...way too slow.

PCI cards slots in the 170, as far as I know, are not the same. Yopu can not
take a PC-PCI ethernet adapter and slip it in to the machine. Will not work.

All new as/400 risc system come with the OS/400. Extra users are extra cost.

Software is reloaded on the machine as per the order. Other software order
later does come on CD's.

Any software compiled on any as/400 machine will run on any as/400 machine,
regardless of size. NB: There are some restriction as to OS/400 version,
consideration that is.

Good Luck
Bill Wragg

--
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Quote:> Hi,

>   I have a couple of newbie questions about AS/400's. But
> let met first explain what I need:

> - Ethernet: TCP/IP, socket library (and access through C),
>             ethernet connection. AS/400 should be fully
>             accesibly through the ethernet connection:
>             backups, software installation etc.
> - Compilers: C, Cobol, RPG, Java.

> I tried to find what I need through the IBM homepage and
> the homepages of some AS/400 vendors. What I ended up with
> is the following two choices:

> 150 server       $7,995
> ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
> ILE C            $1,000 (*)
> ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
> Java               free
>                +-------
>                 $10,995 ex. VAT

> 170              $6,995
> ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
> ILE C            $1,000 (*)
> ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
> Java               free
>                +-------
>                  $9,995 ex. VAT

> (*) Don't know the list price, so I am just guessing.

> 1) What I do not understand is why the base system (150) is more
> expensive than the 170. I read the specs of both systems, and
> I have to conclude that the 170 is cheaper, faster and more
> expandable. I came up with a number of arguments:
> - The 170 is on its way out and is being dumped (don't laugh).
> - The 150 server has a lot of extra hardware and software,
>   this could explain the price difference to some extent.
>   But I doubt we will be needing much of it:
>   - A tape backup. Could backups be made through ethernet ?
>   - A CD-ROM. We have CD-ROM's on other machines with ethernet
>     connection, so the general question is is full ethernet
>     access possible ?
>   - The 150 server has an ethernet card, but the 170 has PCI
>     slots and a PCI ethernet card costs less than $50 these days.
>   - BasePak Software. The 170 has no software at all ? No
>     OS even ? What would the essential system software cost ?
>     Can the software be supplied on CD-ROM ?

> 2) Does software compiled on a 150 run on a 170 ? If not, which
>    platform is the biggest ? Also, is cross-compiling on either
>    of the two platforms possible ?

> 3) What does "Software Tier", like "P05", "P10" and "P20"
>    mean exactly ?

> It looks as if the 150 was designed to be used as a single
> central machine, because of the CD-ROM and tape backup and
> the 170 more as a network machine ?

> Regards,
>   Jan

unless it's changed within the past 6 months, the software is more like
$700 per item on the 150.

Quote:

> 170              $6,995
> ILE Cobol        $1,000 (*)
> ILE C            $1,000 (*)
> ILE RPG          $1,000 (*)
> Java               free
>                +-------
>                  $9,995 ex. VAT

you do need the o/s for the 170, your best bet is valuepak, which
includes client access, and it's $3500.

also, you need a tape drive, and they start at about $1500

Quote:> 1) What I do not understand is why the base system (150) is more
> expensive than the 170.

it includes a tape drive and the os.

Quote:>   - A tape backup. Could backups be made through ethernet ?

i'd get a tape drive.  if you had to recover, you need to have something
to ipl from.

Quote:>   - A CD-ROM. We have CD-ROM's on other machines with ethernet
>     connection, so the general question is is full ethernet
>     access possible ?

???

Quote:>   - The 150 server has an ethernet card, but the 170 has PCI
>     slots and a PCI ethernet card costs less than $50 these days.

the ethernet card in the as/400 links it up with the rest of the
network.  

Quote:>   - BasePak Software. The 170 has no software at all ? No
>     OS even ? What would the essential system software cost ?

valuepak is $3500

Quote:>     Can the software be supplied on CD-ROM ?

it normally comes pre loaded, and you do updates in the future from the
cd.

Quote:> 2) Does software compiled on a 150 run on a 170 ? If not, which
>    platform is the biggest ? Also, is cross-compiling on either
>    of the two platforms possible ?

all as/400 software is interchangable.  so long as you're release levels
jive.  

Quote:> 3) What does "Software Tier", like "P05", "P10" and "P20"
>    mean exactly ?

the smaller the tier, the cheaper your ibm software, and possible vendor
software is.  the ibm software increases 2-3 times for each tier.

Quote:> It looks as if the 150 was designed to be used as a single
> central machine, because of the CD-ROM and tape backup and
> the 170 more as a network machine ?

not really.  the 150 came along first, and the 170 came later.  the 150
only supports the 1/4 inch tape cartridge.  on the 170, you can get the
1/4 inch or 8mm, 3490, 3590, etc.   but it is expected that you will get
one of these.

the 150 is more of a non growth machine.  but it's not a bad deal for a
small business that won't be outgrowing it any time soon.

nj