HP 850c compares to HP 660c

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Gary Miyaka » Sat, 05 Aug 1995 04:00:00



All this sounds so wonderfull.... what kind of price is it commanding and WHEN
can I order/get one in the states ?

Thanks !

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by wayne.. » Sun, 06 Aug 1995 04:00:00


Hi everybody:

I am planning to buy a color printer in the very near future, but
can't decide between HP 540 , HP 660c and HP 850c.  I know the HP 660c
uses true black color in color mode and about one page faster than the
HP 540, but does it worth the $ 200 more price tag?  Also can somebody
tell me what are the differences between the HP 660c and the HP 850c?

Your helps are greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Wayne

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Scott R Gree » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00


: Hi everybody:

: I am planning to buy a color printer in the very near future, but
: can't decide between HP 540 , HP 660c and HP 850c.  I know the HP 660c
: uses true black color in color mode and about one page faster than the
: HP 540, but does it worth the $ 200 more price tag?  Also can somebody
: tell me what are the differences between the HP 660c and the HP 850c?

: Your helps are greatly appreciated.

: Thanks
: Wayne

Hi, Wayne.

Well, is the extra $200 for the 660C over the 540 worth it?  Only you can
answer that, depending on how critical you need to be of the appearance
of the printout.  Not only does the 660C used both a black and a color
cartridge simultaneously, but the black ink represents the new
600-series-and-above ink which is darker, more laser-like, and less
resistant to fading.  With the 540, if you want black and color together,
the black will be composite black--again, how critical do  you need to be
regarding this (composite black will drain the ink cartridge more
quickly; some people have mentioned a greenish or purplish tinge to it).

The 850C (and its buddy the 855C) are the next models up in development.
compare:

660C     50 black ink nozzles, 48 color ink nozzles
850C    300 black ink nozzles, 192 color ink nozzles

The 800 series are faster printers, better suited for office use, as
opposed to the 600 series, better for home use if speed is not a factor.
HP also claims sharper edges on the 800 series due to reduced drop size...

Personally?  I have a 660C and feel just a little cheated...the 850 is a
step up and, for what I paid for the 660, I would have been able to
purchase an 850 had it been made available in the USA sooner....

check out http://www.buds.co.uk/djets/ for more info.

Good luck.

--
Scott

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Sam L » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00




Quote:

>Personally?  I have a 660C and feel just a little cheated...the 850 is a
>step up and, for what I paid for the 660, I would have been able to
>purchase an 850 had it been made available in the USA sooner....

Can't agree with you more.  I really think HP did a disservice to those
who bought the 660C when it came out a couple of months ago.  street price
of the 660C had dropped a whopping $100 as soon as the the 850C hit the
shelf.  Can't remember the last time any new products depreciated so fast
within a two month period.  why they even sent the 660C to stores is
beyond me!

--

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Kirati Laisath » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00



>>Personally?  I have a 660C and feel just a little cheated...the 850 is a
>>step up and, for what I paid for the 660, I would have been able to
>>purchase an 850 had it been made available in the USA sooner....

>Can't agree with you more.  I really think HP did a disservice to those
>who bought the 660C when it came out a couple of months ago.  street price
>of the 660C had dropped a whopping $100 as soon as the the 850C hit the
>shelf.  Can't remember the last time any new products depreciated so fast
>within a two month period.  why they even sent the 660C to stores is
>beyond me!

I asked that same question repeatedly in the past few months. The reason
I received from a few HP employees on this newsgroup has to do with
complexity of distribution. In particular, it was argued that distribution
was much easier in Europe since there were fewer stores. Also, the concern
that HP might not be able to supply the store if it chose to release the
HP850C in the US was cited as another reason.

I wouldn't comment on how credible these arguments are, in the end, it
seems that HP has just alienated quite a few customers who bought its
product. Good job, HP!

Later...

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by astan.. » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00



Quote:>The 850C (and its buddy the 855C) are the next models up in development.
>compare:
>660C     50 black ink nozzles, 48 color ink nozzles
>850C    300 black ink nozzles, 192 color ink nozzles
>The 800 series are faster printers, better suited for office use, as
>opposed to the 600 series, better for home use if speed is not a factor.
>HP also claims sharper edges on the 800 series due to reduced drop size...

What is drop size?  Do more ink nozzles mean better resolution?  or
just faster printing?  The color dpi fpr the 660C is 600x300.  Is it
better on the 850C and 855C?  

Thanks,
Anthony

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Scott R Gree » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00


: What is drop size?  Do more ink nozzles mean better resolution?  or
: just faster printing?  The color dpi fpr the 660C is 600x300.  Is it
: better on the 850C and 855C?  

: Thanks,
: Anthony

Drop size really is just that: what space does one "firing" of ink leave
on the paper?  The reduced drop size of the 850/855 is said to improve
resolution *around the edges* of objects printed (text or pictures), even
though the overall resolution remains the same (it would appear to be a
refinement...)

More ink nozzles mean faster printing for both text and graphics:  best
mode for text on the 850/855 is 4ppm; on the 660 best mode is just 1ppm.  
There are similar speed improvements for color.  Color resolution,
though, stays at a max of 600x300; I think even HP's higher models (1200
and 1600) do not go beyond 600x300 for color, although they are faster.

--
Scott

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Patrick Cha » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00



|>
|> : What is drop size?  Do more ink nozzles mean better resolution?  or
|> : just faster printing?  The color dpi fpr the 660C is 600x300.  Is it
|> : better on the 850C and 855C?  
|>
|> : Thanks,
|> : Anthony
|>
|> Drop size really is just that: what space does one "firing" of ink leave
|> on the paper?  The reduced drop size of the 850/855 is said to improve
|> resolution *around the edges* of objects printed (text or pictures), even
|> though the overall resolution remains the same (it would appear to be a
|> refinement...)
|>
|> More ink nozzles mean faster printing for both text and graphics:  best
|> mode for text on the 850/855 is 4ppm; on the 660 best mode is just 1ppm.  

One other thing to note is that the 85xC's "normal" mode, at 6 ppm, is
a true 600 dpi printmode with no depletion. The only difference is that the
carriage is scanned a bit faster.

|> There are similar speed improvements for color.  Color resolution,
|> though, stays at a max of 600x300;

No, it doesn't. Color resolution on the 85xC series is 300x300. Instead
of using higher resolution to boost output quality, they rely on a
technique called "CRet". What CRet does is allow multiple levels of each
primary to be created at a given dot location. Thus, while a conventional
color inkjet (660C, ESC, etc.) can create 7 different color values at a
given dot location (3 primaries, 3 secondaries, and black) the 850C can
create 63 color values per location (if my memory serves me right - it
may be 124 values per location instead).

|> I think even HP's higher models (1200
|> and 1600) do not go beyond 600x300 for color, although they are faster.

The 1200C and 1600C are optimized for speed, speed, and more speed when
printing (primarily) business graphics. They are both 300x300 dpi devices in
color. The 1600C is 600x600 dpi for black.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Chase           Not speaking for Hewlett-Packard...
H-P San Diego

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Tapani Tarvain » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00



> The color dpi fpr the 660C is 600x300.  Is it
>better on the 850C and 855C?  

The colour resolution of the 850C is 300x300 dpi, but its
output is still better than 660C's at 600x300,
demonstrating neatly that dpi is not all that counts.
The secret is what HP calls C-Ret, which means that the 850C
can squirt varying amounts of each color on each dot
(something like 0-3 "third-drops"), so that whereas the
540/600C &c can produce dots of 8 different colours,
and the 560C/660C add black, the 850C can do 4^4 or
256 colour combinations per dot, of which maybe half
are actually useful (different enough).
Theoretically such a 4-step scale in drop size amounts
to doubling resolution in one direction, so the 850C
should be comparable to the 660C (on special paper--
note that the C-Ret in 850C works on normal paper, too);
in practice, you'll have to see it and decide yourself.

The other differences (more significant for most users,
I suspect) are speed and that the 850C can be
connected to both a PC and a Mac (making it ideal
for certain types of families...)

--
Tapani Tarvainen

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Andries Brouw » Mon, 07 Aug 1995 04:00:00


: The colour resolution of the 850C is 300x300 dpi, but its
: output is still better than 660C's at 600x300,
: demonstrating neatly that dpi is not all that counts.
: The secret is what HP calls C-Ret, which means that the 850C
: can squirt varying amounts of each color on each dot

: The other differences (more significant for most users,
: I suspect) are speed and that the 850C can be
: connected to both a PC and a Mac.

Note however, that if your PC runs a Unix system, the `C-Ret'
technology of HP is not available, and other printers may be
more attractive.

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Tapani Tarvain » Tue, 08 Aug 1995 04:00:00




>: The colour resolution of the 850C is 300x300 dpi, but its
>: output is still better than 660C's at 600x300,
>: demonstrating neatly that dpi is not all that counts.
>: The secret is what HP calls C-Ret, which means that the 850C
>: can squirt varying amounts of each color on each dot
>Note however, that if your PC runs a Unix system, the `C-Ret'
>technology of HP is not available, and other printers may be
>more attractive.

The C-Ret (unlike "ColorSmart") technology is a hardware feature
and therefore usable in U*X, if you know how... which, true enough,
HP isn't too helpful with: so far I haven't been able to find out
if there even exists a Technical Reference for the 85xC.
Indeed that's what's been keeping me from buying a 850C so far:
if there was a good GhostScript driver for it, or other
(hardware or software) means of printing PostScript with it,
with results as good as with the Windows (barf) drivers,
I'd buy one instantly.  I've even seriously contemplated
writing a GS driver for it myself, but if they can't even
come up with a Technical Reference... :-(

Is there any other printer with comparable output quality,
speed (how fast is the new ESC Pro?) and some kind of
PostScript support (that I can use in HP-UX and Linux)?
I could even stomach a substantially higher price--
the DJ 1600CM is about as high as I could go (indeed
if it had C-Ret I might've sprung for it already...)

--
Tapani Tarvainen

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Brad Domin » Wed, 09 Aug 1995 04:00:00




Quote:>More ink nozzles mean faster printing for both text and graphics:  best
>mode for text on the 850/855 is 4ppm; on the 660 best mode is just 1ppm.  
>There are similar speed improvements for color.  Color resolution,
>though, stays at a max of 600x300; I think even HP's higher models (1200
>and 1600) do not go beyond 600x300 for color, although they are faster.

Actually, the 850C, 855C, and 1600C are rated for 300x300dpi in Best mode
color, even on special paper.  Why they can only do 300dpi while the 660C can
get up to 300x600dpi on special paper is beyond me...

Brad

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Brad Domin » Wed, 09 Aug 1995 04:00:00




Quote:

>One other thing to note is that the 85xC's "normal" mode, at 6 ppm, is
>a true 600 dpi printmode with no depletion. The only difference is that the
>carriage is scanned a bit faster.

Could you please explain what "depletion" is?  I know that it's a proprietary
HP technology, but it's hard to be happy that it's in DeskJets when HP doesn't
explain how it works.

Thanks,
Brad

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Patrick Cha » Wed, 09 Aug 1995 04:00:00




|> >
|> >One other thing to note is that the 85xC's "normal" mode, at 6 ppm, is
|> >a true 600 dpi printmode with no depletion. The only difference is that the
|> >carriage is scanned a bit faster.
|> >
|>
|> Could you please explain what "depletion" is?  I know that it's a
|> proprietary HP technology, but it's hard to be happy that it's in
|> DeskJets when HP doesn't explain how it works.

'Depletion' isn't anybody's proprietary technology. All it means is that
you strip dots out of the print data in order to allow you to either scan
the carriage faster without exceeding the pen's firing frequency limits,
or avoid soaking the paper in a situation where you otherwise would.
A couple examples of depletion:
    *   The DeskJet 1600C in Econofast (9 ppm) mode depletes dense print
        regions.
    *   The Epson Stylus Color depletes (one estimate I've seen in this
        newsgroup was 50%) when in 720x720 mode. If I had to guess, I'd say
        they do it to avoid media saturation.
Whether depletion is a good or bad thing w.r.t. print quality depends a
lot on what you're printing, and on what other enhancements (e.g. higher
resolution) it allowed the designers to build in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Chase           Not speaking for Hewlett-Packard...
H-P San Diego

 
 
 

HP 850c compares to HP 660c

Post by Frank Kuru » Fri, 11 Aug 1995 04:00:00




: >More ink nozzles mean faster printing for both text and graphics:  best
: >mode for text on the 850/855 is 4ppm; on the 660 best mode is just 1ppm.  
: >There are similar speed improvements for color.  Color resolution,
: >though, stays at a max of 600x300; I think even HP's higher models (1200
: >and 1600) do not go beyond 600x300 for color, although they are faster.
: >

: Actually, the 850C, 855C, and 1600C are rated for 300x300dpi in Best mode
: color, even on special paper.  Why they can only do 300dpi while the 660C can
: get up to 300x600dpi on special paper is beyond me...

: Brad

What you must realize is that dpi is not everything. A 200 dpi continuous
tone image (say dye-sub output) will look better than a 600 dpi binary
color image. Why? Because the 600 dpi binary device supports only two levels
for each primary color (dot on/ dot off). Most color inkjets are binary.
In order to reproduce colors other than primaries or secondaries (two primary
dots placed in the "same" location) binary printersmust resort to halftoning,
which effectively reduces the amount of information printed. The 850/855
while not continuous tone, have more than two levels.

So for example, a two level printer with 300 dpi is effectively equivalent
to a 600 dpi binary when printing colors other than primaries or
secondaries. Add another level and the 300 dpi will give you a better
image.  Raw dpi does win when printing text or line art in primary or
secondary colors.

Hope this helps.

Frank
"Speaking for myself and not for HP"

 
 
 

1. Help: Comparing HP 660C vs. HP 855C Text modes

From the posts that I've read, it seems that there is no doubt the HP
855C is the better printer when it comes to color.  But I do have a
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output side by side and they claim the 660C is clearly the better
printer.  Could anyone confirm or deny this info.  I like to buy one
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