How does training fit into an XP project?

How does training fit into an XP project?

Post by Kent To » Sun, 25 May 2003 17:12:35



Hi,

Suppose that the XP team is required to develop a system
or feature (eg, web interface) that requires a certain
technology (eg, struts, jsp) that the team has no knowledge
about. Obviously the team needs training. When should this
training be planned and implemeneted? In the elaboration
phase? Or planned in elaboraton and implemented in the
iteration that really needs the feature (eg, the first
feature requiring a web interface)? Would this training
time is included in this feature's estimate? If the training
takes quite some time say 3 weeks, it wouldn't even fit
into a single iteration.

Thanks for any advice!

 
 
 

How does training fit into an XP project?

Post by tom thum » Mon, 26 May 2003 10:34:53


take a lookie here:

http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/spike.html

g


Quote:> Hi,

> Suppose that the XP team is required to develop a system
> or feature (eg, web interface) that requires a certain
> technology (eg, struts, jsp) that the team has no knowledge
> about. Obviously the team needs training. When should this
> training be planned and implemeneted? In the elaboration
> phase? Or planned in elaboraton and implemented in the
> iteration that really needs the feature (eg, the first
> feature requiring a web interface)? Would this training
> time is included in this feature's estimate? If the training
> takes quite some time say 3 weeks, it wouldn't even fit
> into a single iteration.

> Thanks for any advice!


 
 
 

How does training fit into an XP project?

Post by Keith Ra » Mon, 26 May 2003 11:26:02




> take a lookie here:

> http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/spike.html

> g



> > Hi,

> > Suppose that the XP team is required to develop a system
> > or feature (eg, web interface) that requires a certain
> > technology (eg, struts, jsp) that the team has no knowledge
> > about. Obviously the team needs training. When should this
> > training be planned and implemeneted? In the elaboration
> > phase? Or planned in elaboraton and implemented in the
> > iteration that really needs the feature (eg, the first
> > feature requiring a web interface)? Would this training
> > time is included in this feature's estimate? If the training
> > takes quite some time say 3 weeks, it wouldn't even fit
> > into a single iteration.

> > Thanks for any advice!

Ideally, the team would hire an expert as an employee or
consultant/contractor, and spread the expert's knowledge by pair
programming. Don't hire an expert unwilling to pair and share knowledge.

Also, instead of struts & jsp, etc., maybe take a look at WebObjects.

I'm in favor of immersion-based training classes, which are 50% or more
"lab-work" - you could send half of the team (or, to show each
programmer that you value their education, the entire team) to such a
class (at any time before the knowedge is needed) and then spread that
knowledge via pair programming.
--
C. Keith Ray

<http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>

 
 
 

How does training fit into an XP project?

Post by Kent To » Mon, 26 May 2003 18:34:18



> take a lookie here:

> http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/spike.html

A spike is not what I am up to. A spike is something that one can
do in a short period like half a day. I was talking an area that
needs an extended period of learning. For example, I don't think
an average programmer can learn struts and jsp in half a day.
 
 
 

How does training fit into an XP project?

Post by Shane Mingin » Tue, 27 May 2003 06:39:56



Quote:> Also, instead of struts & jsp, etc., maybe take a look at WebObjects.

Hi Keith

I am currently using OJB and Struts.  Would you recommend WebObjects over
this?  If "yes", why?  Or was it more a suggestion to the OP to perhaps
eliminate (or assist) in the training needs for their project, for example a
bought package may have training provided as part of the purchase.

I had a quick look at the datasheet ... statements like this make me
hesitant ...

"Building WebObjects applications is as easy as 1, 2, 3: Model your data,
build your application, and customize your application."

... for example Borland would claim that you can use JBuilder to build the
Swing components of you java application, and yes you can, and people do,
but most java programmers that I talk to would hand code the GUI because the
code generated from JBuilder is not considered great.

BTW, the intention of my comments/questions are purely information seeking
....** always interested in a better or easier way to do things **... if
somehow that *tone* was lost via the text based medium :-)   How about this
for a *geek though* --- "express the intent of my posting using a test"
*grin*  Okay enough from me.  Too much coffeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Cheers
Shane

--

remove clothes before replying

 
 
 

How does training fit into an XP project?

Post by Keith Ra » Wed, 28 May 2003 00:51:27






> > Also, instead of struts & jsp, etc., maybe take a look at WebObjects.

> Hi Keith

> I am currently using OJB and Struts.  Would you recommend WebObjects over
> this?  If "yes", why?  Or was it more a suggestion to the OP to perhaps
> eliminate (or assist) in the training needs for their project, for example a
> bought package may have training provided as part of the purchase.

Not having used either package, I can only suggest investigating each
one. I hear good things from WebObjects developers, not much from struts
developers.

There are training classes and consultants available. Also, big
companies and small consultanting companies were using WebObjects when
it used to cost $50,000.

Quote:> I had a quick look at the datasheet ... statements like this make me
> hesitant ...

> "Building WebObjects applications is as easy as 1, 2, 3: Model your data,
> build your application, and customize your application."

It is unfortunate that a marketing droid wrote that datasheet. I haven't
used it myself, but people who do use it say that it helps them write
web apps much faster than other tools do, and with greater ease. If you
more info, try the mailing list here:

http://www.omnigroup.com/developer/mailinglists/webobjects/

and this page of links:

http://websig.dbug.org/sigs/webobjects/links.html

Quote:> ... for example Borland would claim that you can use JBuilder to build the
> Swing components of you java application, and yes you can, and people do,
> but most java programmers that I talk to would hand code the GUI because the
> code generated from JBuilder is not considered great.

Probably most people tweak or hand-code the GUI generated by WebObjects,
as well. Though it does make an impressive demo (which I've seen).

> BTW, the intention of my comments/questions are purely information seeking
> ....** always interested in a better or easier way to do things **... if
> somehow that *tone* was lost via the text based medium :-)   How about this
> for a *geek though* --- "express the intent of my posting using a test"
> *grin*  Okay enough from me.  Too much coffeeeeeeeeeeeee.

> Cheers
> Shane

> --

> remove clothes before replying

--
C. Keith Ray

<http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>

 
 
 

1. Looking for a large free XP projects done

Hello,

can anybody answer the following questions.
I couldnt  find the info in XF FAQs:

1) Can XP projects use CVS or there are some basic limitations/concepts
   that make CVS a bad choice for extreme programming?

2) If CVS is okay can you direct me to any freely accessible
   (thru web?) projects that are:
   (Under CVS) && (purely XP'ed) && (large. Comparable in size with Mozilla
        or FreeBSD CVS storage)
   I just want to play with the XP+CVS history for my M.S. work.

3) If CVS is bad for XP projects can anyone direct me to
   -- what do XP people use for versioning
   -- any freely accessible (thru web?) large project histories
        that I can play with.

thanx a lot,
Alexander.

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7. Training: Managing OO projects, OOD(A), Intro to OO in Cambridge, UK

8. Opinion of SunScreen EPS

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10. XP Immersion Training last week.

11. XP Extreme Programming Immersion Training.

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