PreGap problem with DiscRecording

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by James » Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:18:13




> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:35:55 GMT

> > Perhaps it was first written using  the language and then rewritten
> > and released in c.

> That's what I thought at first, but it sounds a bit weird: at that
> time, there were no MacOSX, NeXT was almost dead, so why "bothering"
> with Objc??

> But I found another explanation, in the following messages:

> http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/archive/a_june96/0008.html
> http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/archive/a_june96/0009.html

> It suggests that a Quake Editor (the first one?), QuakeEd, were made
> using ObjC (and running on NeXT). Knowing that Quake was closed-source
> at that time, and seeing that editor coming to NeXT first maybe drove
> some people to confusion, or something like that...

> I'll look more for _the_ answer :)

That's the right explanation. Carmack really liked the NeXT cubes and did
the development work for DooM on one. Likewise his tools for developing
Quake (map editors etc.) were written in Obj-C - no doubt to get
something working quickly. Obviously the games themselves wouldn't be as
they needed the raw speed of C and ASM to run on the computers of the
day. I think another confusion with Quake is the Quake-C language Carmack
devised to allow people to customise Quake before it was open sourced.
Now if only he would stop playing with rockets and release DooM III...
 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by publiclo » Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:18:32


From John Romero (formerly of id)

Geez, I have so many great            memories of working at id. From
the start of the company up through            DOOM were some of the
best times ever with everyone working in            close proximity
getting immense amounts of work done in incredible time.            I
really enjoyed playing Fatal Fury with Tom, DOOM deathmatch          
and Art of Fighting with Shawn and programming the tools under        
   NEXTSTEP was amazing.

Here are some words directly from John Carmack, one of the principals
of id.

http://www.veryComputer.com/

I won $20,000 at the tables, which I am donating to the Free Software
 Foundation.  I have been meaning to do something for the FSF for a
long
 time.  Quake was deployed on a dos port of FSF software, and both
DOOM and
 Quake were developed on NEXTSTEP, which uses many FSF based tools.  I
 don't subscribe to all the FSF dogma, but I have clearly benefited
from
 their efforts.

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/*.org/NeXTSTEP/NeXTSTEP.TechReview.html
For the last word I'll hand over to John Carmack, Technical Director
of ID Software, who used NeXTSTEP to develop Doom and parts of Quake
(that's right!): "We developed lots of  products under dos (mostly
borland c++), and never want to again.  We went through five major
iterations of our tools under DOS, and they are all junk below our
first iteration of NS tools.  You can't really just point at specific
things and claim superiority.  It is the complete package that has the
appeal.  NS is the best tool I have found for MY development work."

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/

To go from disliking the MacOS to saying that the Mac can be a
"perfect" * platform is a remarkable turnaround. This very likely
has more to do with Steve Jobs than anything else. Mr. Carmack was a
long time NeXTStep enthusiast, completely developing the original
Quake game on NeXT and then porting it to Windows. Mr. Carmack said on
more than one occasion that the only reason his company switched
development efforts to Windows NT was NT's support for OpenGL.

Carmack's .plan
Dec 21:
Wow. Apple bought NeXT. That really brightened my day.

I haven't generally been unhappy developing on NT, but I had   been
carrying a bit of sadness over several of the things we left behind
when we moved   from NEXTSTEP.

I wouldn't touch a mac for development right now, but if   apple does
The Right Thing with NeXT...

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/

and

http://www.veryComputer.com/*erdesk/1q99/quakex.html
Oh, and Carmack made some interesting     comments on the BeOS that
shouldn't be ignored.

I did figure one thing       out -- I was always a little curious why
the early BeOS advocates were so enthusiastic.       Coming from a
NEXTSTEP background, BeOS looked to me like a fairly interesting
little       system, but nothing special. To a mac developer, it must
have looked like the promised       land...

 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by John C. Randolp » Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:45:49






> > > GCC is of course the Basis for Everything ObjC. Although our local POC
> > > author will no doubt object to this statement,

> > Objective-C is not GCC specific, indeed.

> > Do you think GCC is the Basis for Everything C ?

> There are lots and lots of other C compilers out there. Name another
> ObjC compiler. Now that you've named POC, name another ObjC compiler
> besides those two. Now name some projects that use POC.

> Of course you do not *need* GCC to compile ObjC, but it is the de facto
> standard as I said. Its share of ObjC is enormous compared to everything
> else.

Indeed.  If the MetroWerks compiler deviates from GCC's implementation
of Obj-C, they'll bring it into line with apple's reference implementation.

-jcr

 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by John C. Randolp » Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:47:10



> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:05:26 GMT

> > Wasn't Quake written in Objective-C?

> If we speak about the same thing (the ID Sofware game), browsing the
> source [1] released few years ago shows only C and ASM. It's not the
> first time I read that Quake was written in ObjC, and I still wonder
> why. If someone can explain...

> [1] http://www.quakeforge.net/files/q1source.zip

> --
> Larry Cow

Id used NeXT machines as their development platform for Doom, and all of
their level-editing tools and the like were NeXTSTEP apps.  AFAIK, the
game engines themselves have always been straight C.

-jcr

 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by edalytica » Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:33:27



> From John Romero (formerly of id)

> Mr. Carmack was a
> long time NeXTStep enthusiast, completely developing the original
> Quake game on NeXT and then porting it to Windows.

So does this mean Quake was originally written in Objective-C???  Thanks
for the insight.
 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by publiclo » Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:40:40




> > From John Romero (formerly of id)

> > Mr. Carmack was a
> > long time NeXTStep enthusiast, completely developing the original
> > Quake game on NeXT and then porting it to Windows.

> So does this mean Quake was originally written in Objective-C???  Thanks
> for the insight.

This is the link you want.  These are Carmack's words and not Romero's
as your attribution suggests:

http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/feb98/0381.html

"I won $20,000 at the tables, which I am donating to the Free Software
 Foundation.  I have been meaning to do something for the FSF for a
long
 time.  Quake was deployed on a dos port of FSF software, and both
DOOM and
 Quake were developed on NEXTSTEP, which uses many FSF based tools.  I
 don't subscribe to all the FSF dogma, but I have clearly benefited
from
 their efforts."

My guess is that the tools were Objective-C and the game engines were
C.

 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by Jeff Teunisse » Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:20:02


[snip]

Quote:> Id used NeXT machines as their development platform for Doom, and all of
> their level-editing tools and the like were NeXTSTEP apps.  AFAIK, the
> game engines themselves have always been straight C.

Yeah, though Quake itself was developed on NeXT, it's straight C (with a
few assembly functions thrown in for speed on x86). However, it's written
like an ObjC coder would write C. :)

Note 1: QuakeForge's gamecode compiler (used for writing "mods") has
ObjC-like features. This and other enhancements (along with some small
differences from the original "QuakeC") caused us to rename the language
that qfcc (the name of the compiler) understands. Our language is called
Ruamoko, but it's basically "Objective-QuakeC". It's a neat enhancement.

Note 2: Doom 3 is apparently C++.

--

| GPG: 1024D/9840105A   7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B  161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A
| Core developer, The QuakeForge Project        http://www.quakeforge.net/
| Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux              http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/

 
 
 

PreGap problem with DiscRecording

Post by Jeff Teunisse » Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:30:01


[snip]

Quote:> "I won $20,000 at the tables, which I am donating to the Free Software
>  Foundation.  I have been meaning to do something for the FSF for a
>  long time.  Quake was deployed on a dos port of FSF software, and both
>  DOOM and Quake were developed on NEXTSTEP, which uses many FSF based
>  tools.  I don't subscribe to all the FSF dogma, but I have clearly
>  benefited from their efforts."

> My guess is that the tools were Objective-C and the game engines were
> C.

Only the map editors were ObjC, using the NeXTstep kits (and a lot of
DPS). bsp, qcc, qlumpy, modelgen, etc. tools are C.

--

| GPG: 1024D/9840105A   7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B  161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A
| Core developer, The QuakeForge Project        http://www.quakeforge.net/
| Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux              http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/