What is the point of this group ?

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Erik M. Buc » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:49:56



What is the point of this group given that it seems every thread degenerates
in to a flame war between one prolific troll and all of the other people in
the group ?  Once again, one troll seems to have reduced an entire group to
uselessness or am I misinterpreting what goes on here ?  I check in once a
month or so to see what has been going on and the same handful of pointless
debates rage on and on and on.  I can find five year old threads that are
being rehashed again today and the participants are the same people and the
same one troll.  The only thing this group really discusses is mental
illness.

Is anyone getting useful information from this group ?
Is anyone getting questions answered ?
Is anyone benefiting from a community in which to share an interest ?

I am sorry to rant, but I am frustrated because I sometimes want to discuss
Objective-C, and it is clear to me that this forum is useless for that
purpose.

For example, I have a working Objective-C pre-processor plug-in for
Microsoft Visual C++ that allows development of Objective-C software within
that IDE ?  I also have an all C runtime implemented as a Windows dll.  I
might like to discuss it with folks, but I can't do it here.  Let the flames
begin!

I expect to be flamed for doing anything on a Windows platform.
I expect to be flamed for using an IDE at all.
I expect to be flamed for using the VC++ IDE in particular.
I expect to be flamed for supporting categories and protocols and being
compatible with the gcc runtime but not based on it.
I expect to be flamed for including implementations of both Object and
NSObject and not making NSObject a subclass of Object.
I expect to be flamed for supporting any number of base classes and actually
providing several including Protocol and NSProxy.
I expect to be flamed for optionally generating C++ code form Objective-C
instead of only generating C.
I expect to be flamed for liking and encouraging the use
of -retain, -release, and -autorelease as well as NSAutoreleasePool.

I'll check back in a few weeks and count the flames.  Have fun if that is
what it is...

One last issue about which you can all pointlessly argue.  How should I
license and distribute my Objective-C pre-processor.  I am tempted to craft
a license that allows any use as long as the software in never used in
Belgium :(

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by David Ste » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:17:44



Quote:

> I check in once a
> month or so to see what has been going on and the same handful of pointless
> debates rage on and on and on.

The debate is not pointless.  For the casual observer, the discussion between
+new and +alloc/-init may seem like a detail.

But the more interesting aspect of the +alloc/-init change is the following:

Is it reasonable that the entire language is changed for the performance
problems of one particular workstation ?

We have explained that +alloc/-init was introduced for NextStep 2.1 as a
performance enhancement (for zoning) due to swapping problems;

Other systems use +new, just as NextStep originally did.

One approach (like Randolph said), is changing all other implementations,
and gradually replace +new by +alloc/-init everywhere.

But that is like a "cancer", spreading around a healthy body.

If we just amputate the leg (=Apple) that is infected by the cancer,
we can keep the otherwise healthy  body (=Objective-C).

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by mike burrel » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:25:29



Quote:> Is anyone getting useful information from this group ?
> Is anyone getting questions answered ?
> Is anyone benefiting from a community in which to share an interest ?

Yes, but these matters don't come up very often.  Objective C is not some hot
and exciting technology that is rapidly changing, so you can't expect lively
discussion all the time.

I don't really see why people get annoyed with these long, repetitive
threads.  Whenever I see a subject line I've seen before (and know it's been
going on too long), I just don't read it.  In the end, I'll probably end up
reading only a small handful of posts each week (completely ignoring the
other 80-90%).  It doesn't bother me.

If there is a downside, though, the stupid threads (as I call them) may be
causing the low readership.  This goes hand-in-hand with your complaint that
it's hard to get new ideas discussed very well.  When few people read the
newsgroup on a regular basis, you get few responses.

--
 /"\                                                 m i k e   b u r r e l l

  X        AGAINST HTML MAIL,
 / \      AND NEWS TOO, dammit

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Mark Besse » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:43:06




Quote:> What is the point of this group given that it seems every thread
degenerates
> in to a flame war between one prolific troll and all of the other people
in
> the group ?

I'm not sure there is point anymore. It *should be* for discussions of the
Objective-C language and libraries, but as you've pointed out, not much of
that seems to be happening. I unsubscribed from this group a few years ago,
came back, discovered it's the same old crap, so I'm likely to be leaving
again. I don't much care for the amount of noise on the
comp.sys.mac.programmer.* newsgroups, or Apple's cocoa-dev mail list, but at
least they sometimes discuss interesting topics.

Quote:> Is anyone getting useful information from this group ?
> Is anyone getting questions answered ?
> Is anyone benefiting from a community in which to share an interest ?

For myself I can only say "not recently".

Quote:> I am sorry to rant, but I am frustrated because I sometimes want to
discuss
> Objective-C, and it is clear to me that this forum is useless for that
> purpose.

Maybe someone should start a mailing list...

Quote:> For example, I have a working Objective-C pre-processor plug-in for
> Microsoft Visual C++ that allows development of Objective-C software
within
> that IDE ?  I also have an all C runtime implemented as a Windows dll.  I
> might like to discuss it with folks, but I can't do it here.  Let the
flames
> begin!

Very cool. I imagine that a few people here would be interested in checking
that out (me, for one). Writing Objective-C on Windows with an adequate IDE
would be pretty cool.

Quote:> One last issue about which you can all pointlessly argue.  How should I
> license and distribute my Objective-C pre-processor.  I am tempted to
craft
> a license that allows any use as long as the software in never used in
> Belgium :(

Well, if you really want my input, I'd say use an open source license that
allows commercial exploitation (i.e. not the GPL).  That gives you the best
chance of having people actually use it. I don't think the market for
Objective-C preprocessors (or non-mainstream languages in general) is strong
enough to make a business out of it.

-Mark

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by John C. Randolp » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:57:03



> I expect to be flamed for doing anything on a Windows platform.
> I expect to be flamed for using an IDE at all.
> I expect to be flamed for using the VC++ IDE in particular.
> I expect to be flamed for supporting categories and protocols and being
> compatible with the gcc runtime but not based on it.
> I expect to be flamed for including implementations of both Object and
> NSObject and not making NSObject a subclass of Object.
> I expect to be flamed for supporting any number of base classes and actually
> providing several including Protocol and NSProxy.
> I expect to be flamed for optionally generating C++ code form Objective-C
> instead of only generating C.
> I expect to be flamed for liking and encouraging the use
> of -retain, -release, and -autorelease as well as NSAutoreleasePool.

If you killfile Stes, I don't think you'll see anyone flaming you at all.

BTW, how does your stuff worth with GNUStep-base?  Any hitches or hangups?

Quote:> I'll check back in a few weeks and count the flames.  Have fun if that is
> what it is...

> One last issue about which you can all pointlessly argue.  How should I
> license and distribute my Objective-C pre-processor.  I am tempted to craft
> a license that allows any use as long as the software in never used in
> Belgium :(

BSD license works for most people who don't have strong political feelings..

-jcr

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by John C. Randolp » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:02:29




> > I check in once a
> > month or so to see what has been going on and the same handful of pointless
> > debates rage on and on and on.

> The debate is not pointless.

Yes, David, it is.  In several years of railing against NeXT and Apple's
improvements to Objective-C, you have yet to come up with any sound
arguments against them.  Your statements tend to be like the following:

Quote:> If we just amputate the leg (=Apple) that is infected by the cancer,
> we can keep the otherwise healthy  body (=Objective-C).

Now, when you suggest the elimination of the platform where nearly all
the Obj-C activity in the world is taking place, how could anyone take
you seriously?

Sorry, but writing a compiler for a subset of an early version of a
language, and adding a few extensions that nobody else cares about (like
your broken auto-refcount scheme), doesn't make you any kind of
authority on the language.

-jcr

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Joseph Spiro » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:16:14



Quote:> But that is like a "cancer", spreading around a healthy body.

> If we just amputate the leg (=Apple) that is infected by the cancer,
> we can keep the otherwise healthy  body (=Objective-C).

Your analogy is broken... If the healthy body is to be Objective-C, then
the natural, non-cancerous cells would be Apple (being as Apple owns and
controls Objective-C, for all intents and purposes), and the rogue
element (or, cancerous cells) would be you, and anyone else who, rather
than attempting a symbiotic relationship with Apple in terms of
Objective-C language and LIBRARY implementations (Have you yet realized
the difference? Seems not...), suggest that their unofficial and less-
used implementations be considered the "standard" for all that is
Objective-C.

However, ignoring all of that, I'd still like to know how exactly you're
benefiting the Objective-C community (and this newsgroup) by, rather
than helping people who need it, and providing insightful discussion
into future directions of Objective-C, you constantly start "flame wars"
about decisions that have already been made (namely those that you
disagree with), and further start to personally insult those that you
feel made these decisions, or even to the point of insulting those that
AGREE with those decisions. It doesn't make any sense!

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Charlton Wilbu » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:25:07



> We have explained that +alloc/-init was introduced for NextStep 2.1 as a
> performance enhancement (for zoning) due to swapping problems;

*WE* have explained that +alloc/-init was introduced for several
reasons, of which +allocWithZone is an *example*, and a
not-particularly-useful one.  *YOU* have seized upon this as the sole
reason, and proceded to attack the example rather than the reasoning.

Quote:> One approach (like Randolph said), is changing all other implementations,
> and gradually replace +new by +alloc/-init everywhere.

> But that is like a "cancer", spreading around a healthy body.
> If we just amputate the leg (=Apple) that is infected by the cancer,
> we can keep the otherwise healthy  body (=Objective-C).

Seems to me, given the sizes and degrees of support of the various
developer communities, that would be like cutting away and discarding
the healthy body and expecting the cancer to survive on its own.

Charlton

--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Charlton Wilbu » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:25:07



Quote:> Is anyone getting useful information from this group ?
> Is anyone getting questions answered ?
> Is anyone benefiting from a community in which to share an interest ?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Quote:> I am sorry to rant, but I am frustrated because I sometimes want to discuss
> Objective-C, and it is clear to me that this forum is useless for that
> purpose.

Hardly.  Post a question, killfile David Stes, and enjoy the replies.

Quote:> For example, I have a working Objective-C pre-processor plug-in for
> Microsoft Visual C++ that allows development of Objective-C software
> within that IDE ?  I also have an all C runtime implemented as a
> Windows dll.  I might like to discuss it with folks, but I can't do
> it here.

Why not?

I asked about a month ago about an Objective-C runtime for PalmOS, and
I got correct replies (even if they weren't what I wanted to hear).  
I've also come to a *much* better understanding of retain/release
memory management; none of the docs I've seen from Apple explain it
quite so cogently as some of the web links that have been posted here.

The noise with Stes is constant because nobody else is saying
anything.  If there were more interesting things to discuss than his
delusions, people would be discussing them.  This may be a
chicken-and-egg situation: if the discussion were not so strongly
dominated by Stes and his delusions, there would be more varied
discussion here; but if there were more varied discussion here, Stes
would be a fringe lunatic and not the central topic of the newsgroup.

From my point of view, I think this sounds like a fascinating project,
though I don't do Windows development currently and will probably
never use it.

Quote:> One last issue about which you can all pointlessly argue.  How
> should I license and distribute my Objective-C pre-processor.  I am
> tempted to craft a license that allows any use as long as the
> software in never used in Belgium :(

Commercially, LGPL, or BSD license, depending on what you want to
accomplish with it.

Charlton

--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by David Ste » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:33:38



>> But that is like a "cancer", spreading around a healthy body.

>> If we just amputate the leg (=Apple) that is infected by the cancer,
>> we can keep the otherwise healthy  body (=Objective-C).

> Your analogy is broken... If the healthy body is to be Objective-C, then
> the natural, non-cancerous cells would be Apple

The analogy of +alloc/-init spreading to other implementations like GNU,
from the Apple original, is quite appropriate, because it is like a cancer.

The modifications that Apple does, such as changing +new to +alloc/-init,
or such as adding the autorelease/retain/release memory management, only
have a negative impact on Objective-C.

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by John C. Randolp » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:55:40




> > We have explained that +alloc/-init was introduced for NextStep 2.1 as a
> > performance enhancement (for zoning) due to swapping problems;

> *WE* have explained that +alloc/-init was introduced for several
> reasons, of which +allocWithZone is an *example*, and a
> not-particularly-useful one.  *YOU* have seized upon this as the sole
> reason, and proceded to attack the example rather than the reasoning.

> > One approach (like Randolph said), is changing all other implementations,
> > and gradually replace +new by +alloc/-init everywhere.

> > But that is like a "cancer", spreading around a healthy body.
> > If we just amputate the leg (=Apple) that is infected by the cancer,
> > we can keep the otherwise healthy  body (=Objective-C).

> Seems to me, given the sizes and degrees of support of the various
> developer communities, that would be like cutting away and discarding
> the healthy body and expecting the cancer to survive on its own.

Of course, stes isn't really a cancer, he's more like a bunion.

-jcr

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by David Ste » Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:02:56



> *WE* have explained that +alloc/-init was introduced for several
> reasons, of which +allocWithZone is an *example*, and a
> not-particularly-useful one.  *YOU* have seized upon this as the sole
> reason, and proceded to attack the example rather than the reasoning.

+allocWithZone didn't even exist back in 1991.

If you look at the historical context of the introduction of +alloc/-init,
then you will remember +allocFromZone:.

You mean to say that +allocFromZone: is not useful, and I agree.

But at the time +alloc/-init was introduced, the Apple engineers thought
they were geniuses to introduce +allocFromZone: and that's why they insisted
they had to replace +new occurrences everywhere.

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Tom Harringto » Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:26:36




Quote:> If you killfile Stes, I don't think you'll see anyone flaming you at all.

That's hardly sufficient.  If you do this, you may not see flames
directed at you, but you'll still see a newsgroup filled with flame wars
between various factions.  If you don't care to read flame wars, you
need to expand your killfiling to knock out any discussions of this
type, for example killfiling articles with References headers that
indicate the person is engaging our resident troll.

But once you do that, you find that most everything in the group has
been killfiled.  I typically find that more than 90% of the traffic in
this group is wiped out because of this.  I inspect the filter results
periodically, so I'm confident that I'm not accidentally filtering out
anything of substance.  That 90% is crap, even the parts not from our
troll.

Trolls are only a problem when people engage them.  The problem in this
newsgroup is not that there's a resident troll, it's that so many people
egg him on.  Stes isn't the problem; you who pay attention to him are.

--
Tom "Tom" Harrington
Macaroni, Automated System Maintenance for Mac OS X.
Version 1.4:  Best cleanup yet, gets files other tools miss.
See http://www.atomicbird.com/

 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by Allan Odgaa » Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:48:33



Quote:> What is the point of this group given that it seems every thread degenerates
> in to a flame war between one prolific troll and all of the other people [...]

This is my first visit -- and I see much of the answers to your letter
is totally off topic and flame bait... :-)

Quote:> For example, I have a working Objective-C pre-processor plug-in for
> Microsoft Visual C++ that allows development of Objective-C software within
> that IDE ?

This is very interesting! Is it a general pre-processor which could
also be used with other compilers? I ask because Apple have allowed to
use C++ with Objective C, and this is really a must for me, but the
compile time more than doubles -- so perhaps using your pre processor
and still gcc (but then in C++ mode only) would be significantly
faster? Also, it would allow us to compile on other platforms, e.g. on
a faster GNU/Linux server.

Quote:> I also have an all C runtime implemented as a Windows dll.  I
> might like to discuss it with folks, but I can't do it here.  Let the flames
> begin!

I am not really interested in Windows, but your project nonetheless --
if this group turns out to be useless, you could set up a dedicated
mailing list (and I would like to be subscribed).

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for doing anything on a Windows platform.

Yes, this sucks! :-)

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for using an IDE at all.

No, this is good.

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for using the VC++ IDE in particular.

But this is bad.

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for supporting categories and protocols and being
> compatible with the gcc runtime but not based on it.

This I don't understand (not categories & protocols, but why you
should be flamed)

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for including implementations of both Object and
> NSObject and not making NSObject a subclass of Object.

I didn't know of Object... but I'm a Mac-zealot...

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for supporting any number of base classes and actually
> providing several including Protocol and NSProxy.

Multiple inheritance? yes, we have categories... how dare you offer
optional features! :-)

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for optionally generating C++ code form Objective-C
> instead of only generating C.

No, this is cool, cause I want to program in ObjectiveC++ (hopefully
your pre-processor will work with this).

Quote:> I expect to be flamed for liking and encouraging the use
> of -retain, -release, and -autorelease as well as NSAutoreleasePool.

What's the alternative?

Quote:> I'll check back in a few weeks and count the flames.  Have fun if that is
> what it is...

I have tried to comply to your post (see above) :-)

Quote:> One last issue about which you can all pointlessly argue.  How should I
> license and distribute my Objective-C pre-processor.  I am tempted to craft
> a license that allows any use as long as the software in never used in
> Belgium :(

What's wrong with Belgium?
 
 
 

What is the point of this group ?

Post by John C. Randolp » Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:57:24



> +allocWithZone didn't even exist back in 1991.

Neither did hundreds of other NeXT and Apple innovations.  You see
David, there's this thing called "progress", where the lessons of the
past are applied to further development of software.

BTW, here's a question you consistently duck:  given a
distributed-object system like NeXT's DO implemention, how would you
keep track of when it was safe to delete an object that may be needed by
a different process, perhaps even on a different host?

-jcr

 
 
 

1. Sequence point (I am baffled)


    reg = i;        // Load value of i
    reg += 1;       // calculate ++
    reg1 = reg + 1; // calculate +
    i = reg1;       // store +
    i = reg;        // store ++

The basic idea of sequence points is to define the semantics of the C++
language.  (That is to state exactly what is required of an
implementation, and what may vary in order for a quality implementation to
take advantage of a platform's characteristics.)

In this example it allows an implementation the scope to optimise the above
to:
    reg = i;        // Load value of i
    reg += 1;       // calculate ++
    i = reg;        // store ++

Which may execute faster than your original interpretation.
__
Alan Griffiths               | Also editor of: The ISDF Newsletter
Senior Systems Consultant,   | (An Association of C and C++ Users publication)



      [ about comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: do this! ]

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