CD degradation

CD degradation

Post by Keny Ruyte » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 18:17:35



OK. I am running a recording studio, I am trying to figure out some things about making
 generations of CD's.

The first generation CD is burned directly from my recording desk to a external CD
recorder (HHB Burn it.) In order to make copies of that, I am extracting the audio to my
computer using Roxio cd creator. The files are stored as wav's, then I burn them to a
CD recorded in my computer for the second generation...  

The client gets the Master CD (the first Generation CD) I usually burn a reference CD
for myself.

Recently an older client wanted a copy of the master so I extracted the files off of my
second generation reference CD, and burned hin a third generation CD from roxio cd
creator.  

He doesn't have the ear to understand what sonic differences are there but is unhappy
with the thought of having a third generation CD.

What type of sonic losses are incurred with second and third generation CD's?

Thanks,
Keny

 
 
 

CD degradation

Post by James Perret » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 21:46:35



> OK. I am running a recording studio, I am trying to figure out some things about making
>  generations of CD's.
....

> What type of sonic losses are incurred with second and third generation CD's?

If you are using decent audio extraction software and a decent drive
then there will be no losses between generations - that's the beauty of
a working digital system. Unfortunately EZCD creator is the Portastudio
of the CD recording world. It works great for less critical stuff, and
in the right hands it can produce good results but it isn't the best
tool for this job.

As far as hardware goes, audio discs have poorer error correction than
data discs and require the drive to have the ability to flag C2 errors
in order to guarantee an accurate read. You should also really look at
Exact Audio Copy or Plextools (if you have a Plextor drive) to do the
audio extraction because these use more sophisticated error checking
methods than most other software. If you are using software of this
standard (which isn't expensive) then their will be no difference in
sound between generations recorded on the same recorder. Any differences
would probably be down to the use of different recorders giving slightly
different pit geometries for the master and for the copies. Cheaper
players are more sensitive to changes in pit geometry.

I hope this helps.

Cheers.

James.

 
 
 

CD degradation

Post by Mike Richte » Sat, 05 Jul 2003 09:00:25




>>OK. I am running a recording studio, I am trying to figure out some things about making
>> generations of CD's.

> ....

>>What type of sonic losses are incurred with second and third generation CD's?

> If you are using decent audio extraction software and a decent drive
> then there will be no losses between generations - that's the beauty of
> a working digital system. Unfortunately EZCD creator is the Portastudio
> of the CD recording world. It works great for less critical stuff, and
> in the right hands it can produce good results but it isn't the best
> tool for this job.

> As far as hardware goes, audio discs have poorer error correction than
> data discs and require the drive to have the ability to flag C2 errors
> in order to guarantee an accurate read. You should also really look at
> Exact Audio Copy or Plextools (if you have a Plextor drive) to do the
> audio extraction because these use more sophisticated error checking
> methods than most other software. If you are using software of this
> standard (which isn't expensive) then their will be no difference in
> sound between generations recorded on the same recorder. Any differences
> would probably be down to the use of different recorders giving slightly
> different pit geometries for the master and for the copies. Cheaper
> players are more sensitive to changes in pit geometry.

> I hope this helps.

I have no argument with what you say, but a suggestion to offer. The
following is addressed to the OP, of course.

Given the amount of work that goes into the master, why not save the
WAVs used to make the first generation (assuming that they are available
at all)? If they are not, then make them from the first-generation and
save that. Whenever another is needed, make it from the WAV files. No
extraction is needed, full error correction is applied and you never go
beyond second generation - first if you save the source WAVs.

You have another option which you may want to explore: using lossless
compression such as Monkey's Audio or Shorten. In that way, you can save
the source files of even an 80-minute mix on a 650-MB blank and be
certain that no generations will be added and no audio losses incurred.
By using a high-quality 650 which works well in your writer, you will
minimize the risk of error.

Mike
--

http://www.mrichter.com/

 
 
 

CD degradation

Post by James Perret » Sat, 05 Jul 2003 21:07:43





> >>OK. I am running a recording studio, I am trying to figure out some things about making
> >> generations of CD's.

> > ....

> >>What type of sonic losses are incurred with second and third generation CD's?

> > If you are using decent audio extraction software and a decent drive
> > then there will be no losses between generations - that's the beauty of
> > a working digital system. Unfortunately EZCD creator is the Portastudio
> > of the CD recording world. It works great for less critical stuff, and
> > in the right hands it can produce good results but it isn't the best
> > tool for this job.

> > As far as hardware goes, audio discs have poorer error correction than
> > data discs and require the drive to have the ability to flag C2 errors
> > in order to guarantee an accurate read. You should also really look at
> > Exact Audio Copy or Plextools (if you have a Plextor drive) to do the
> > audio extraction because these use more sophisticated error checking
> > methods than most other software. If you are using software of this
> > standard (which isn't expensive) then their will be no difference in
> > sound between generations recorded on the same recorder. Any differences
> > would probably be down to the use of different recorders giving slightly
> > different pit geometries for the master and for the copies. Cheaper
> > players are more sensitive to changes in pit geometry.

> > I hope this helps.

> I have no argument with what you say, but a suggestion to offer. The
> following is addressed to the OP, of course.

> Given the amount of work that goes into the master, why not save the
> WAVs used to make the first generation (assuming that they are available
> at all)? If they are not, then make them from the first-generation and
> save that. Whenever another is needed, make it from the WAV files. No
> extraction is needed, full error correction is applied and you never go
> beyond second generation - first if you save the source WAVs.

While this would be good advice if the original poster was using a
computer to mix down to, in this case I understand that he is coming
straight out of the mixing desk and into the audio recorder. That's why
any copy of the master is going to be at least second generation. I'd
agree with saving the second generation files and copying from those.

I'd have to say that when I work in this way I tend to prefer to use a
re-writeable medium like analogue tape, DAT or computer disc rather than
a write once medium like CD. I'll often start a mix and then stop
halfway through because something sounded wrong or I messed up a fader
move.

Cheers.

James.

 
 
 

CD degradation

Post by Keny Ruyte » Sun, 06 Jul 2003 08:56:28


Hey all thanks for the valuable information.... EAC has been recommended to me by
some other people as well, and i have switched to that, saving wav's from that and
making 2nd generation from that. I actually a/b'ed the roxio and EAC softwares, didn't
really tell a difference, but hey it's a good start. I am beginning to believe that tonal
degradation doesn't really happen, but losing samples and double samples are more
the issue with extraction.

As for working with DAT's I have a tascam HR 824, but a lot of times the band doesn't
plan to master after I mix their project, and they don't feel the need to pay for a DAT. I
do agree that DATs set up a much better situation, but a lot of times it's not really
necescary....

On another note, One of my biggest questions is, after extracting the wav's from the
master, Is there a program that handles arranging the spacing of the songs?  At that
point I do not intend to master anything (i.e. compression / eq / limiting)  because I do
that before I burn the master. I really just want to set up a roadmap for the tracks and
the space between the tracks, and not recalculate the wav's or anything. It would be
important for such a program to be able to layer two tracks on one another, like putting
track changes in without pauses or silence, like with a live band / crowd noise
situation.

Great help y'all Thanks!

Keny

 
 
 

CD degradation

Post by Graham Mayo » Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:24:11



> Hey all thanks for the valuable information.... EAC has been
> recommended to me by
> some other people as well, and i have switched to that, saving wav's
> from that and
> making 2nd generation from that. I actually a/b'ed the roxio and EAC
> softwares, didn't really tell a difference, but hey it's a good
> start. I am beginning to believe that tonal degradation doesn't
> really happen, but losing samples and double samples are more
> the issue with extraction.

> As for working with DAT's I have a tascam HR 824, but a lot of times
> the band doesn't plan to master after I mix their project, and they
> don't feel the need to pay for a DAT. I do agree that DATs set up a
> much better situation, but a lot of times it's not really
> necescary....

> On another note, One of my biggest questions is, after extracting the
> wav's from the master, Is there a program that handles arranging the
> spacing of the songs?  At that point I do not intend to master
> anything (i.e. compression / eq / limiting)  because I do that before
> I burn the master. I really just want to set up a roadmap for the
> tracks and the space between the tracks, and not recalculate the
> wav's or anything. It would be important for such a program to be
> able to layer two tracks on one another, like putting track changes
> in without pauses or silence, like with a live band / crowd noise
> situation.

> Great help y'all Thanks!

> Keny

Where the source disc is easy to read, any good ripping program will produce
the same results. Where EAC scores is on those discs that are less easy to
read - and even new unplayed discs *can* fall into this category. Here EAC
is only rivalled by Plextools (as indicated by James Perrett earlier in the
thread. Plextools only works with Plextor hardware however.

EAC used as a burning application will also fulfil your requirement for
varying the space (pregap) between tracks. By default it will want to insert
a 2 sec. gap between added files, but you can turn that off and it stays
off. You can add tracks as tracks or sub index entries, and better still,
you can use cue sheets to exercise fine control over the finished result -
add CD text etc. EAC will produce cue sheets which you can use 'as is' or
you can edit or create the sheets in a text editor (EAC even provides this
function). Until you get the hang of cue sheets, David Ching's CDRCue
application www.dcsoft.com is an invaluable tool - and would be even better
when he finishes that version 2 ;-)
Another useful tool is CDWAVE www.cdwave.com which is used to split large
WAV files and/or create cue sheets for them

--
<>>< ><<> ><<>
 Graham Mayor
<>>< ><<> ><<>

 
 
 

CD degradation

Post by James Perret » Tue, 08 Jul 2003 22:28:16



> On another note, One of my biggest questions is, after extracting the wav's from the
> master, Is there a program that handles arranging the spacing of the songs?  At that
> point I do not intend to master anything (i.e. compression / eq / limiting)  because I do
> that before I burn the master. I really just want to set up a roadmap for the tracks and
> the space between the tracks, and not recalculate the wav's or anything. It would be
> important for such a program to be able to layer two tracks on one another, like putting
> track changes in without pauses or silence, like with a live band / crowd noise
> situation.

I use Cool Edit Pro for this kind of thing but other people like
Wavelab, Vegas or Samplitude. A lower cost alternative might be n-Track
although I've not used it. It sounds like you really need multitrack
capability which rules out Sound Forge and other cheaper editing
software.

I would advise rendering all the fades/changes to a new file though and
burning in a separate program because I find a separate burning program
(like CDRWin or Feurio) to be more reliable than those built in to the
audio software.

Cheers.

James.

 
 
 

1. Degradation of CD-R (One Offs)

Has anyone else experienced RAPID degradation of CD-R discs?

I don't mean in years, but in HOURS.

We recently produced a one-off disc that worked perfectly at first.  But
as the day went on, it got less and less reliable.  At about three in the
afternoon, it stopped working completely.  We tried it on other
workstations  (It is used by a Windows application) and they had the
same problems so we're pretty sure it is the disc itself, not the
Windows environment.

While we're trying to figure it out from our end (Which burner produced
it, which medium was used, which software was used, etc.) I thought I'd
ask you all if you had seen this problem before.

Jann "Stumped in Seattle" VanOver
--
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       "Why don't y'all go home?"     Bette Davis in The Little Foxes
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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