Living in the past

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:06:41




Quote:> << The DOJ nit has melted away like an ice cream cone on a hot summer day.
It
> was so full of hot air that even DOJ insiders were smirking. >>

> No! -- You had gutless wonders in many states AG offices kowtowing rather
than
> standing up for what was the right thing to do...

Look, this was virtually a one man crusade against Microsoft, Larry Ellison,
IMHO. When you write big checks and have the private cellphone number of
Numero uno, that goes a long way. Most of the states, except for a handful
of politically aroused AGs were unable to see the gravity of this case. They
only pursued it to say they were following up and doing their jobs. The
whole disgrace of the DOJ bullies has disappeared, for all intents and
purposes.

Quote:> What an utterly inane statement Pat! I thought better of your language
skills
> for sure! At least you agree that MS is stealing our money! That's akin to
> saying that because I buy gasoline I'm an idiot because I don't like it
and
> should go buy gasahol, methanol, etc.  Ludicrous! Because I *have* to buy
> gasoline (Windows) to be in tune with the mainstream, in no way means I
have to
> like it -- even though current businesses require it's usage because their
IT
> folks are total slaves to marketing as opposed to simply using tools that
do
> the job for them.

Buying a car and using unleaded gasoline is extremely difficult to avert.
You could go diesel, but its not too different if you're making a
environmental or political statement. You could go hybrid, and that seems
like a good choice if its even an option. However, these are big ticket
items and extremely difficult to buck the norm. But buying or downloading
Linux is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Just do it and stop yakking about Windows. Do
it and then I'll have respect in you! Keep mouthing off in a rant about
being a victim and you're going to look silly and we don't want one of our
GEOS extremists giving that bad impression around here, do we?

Quote:> CLASSIC example (IMO) is the unmitigated WASTE of time folks have
squandered
> using Powerpoint to make presentations "pretty" -- an utterly flagrant
waste of
> productivity -- and we wonder why we (USA) is losing jobs to India, etc.
in the
> IT field.  Absolutely mind-boggling that we are continuing down this

path...

Sound like a good reason to march on Microsoft headquarters with signs. <g>

Quote:> I will continue to use the tools that do the job for me -- having anyone
tell
> me that I *have* to upgrade simnply because some marketing jackass has
> convinced the CEO that it's the right thing to do is an incredible waste
of
> resources, productivity, and time. SHOW me how that upgrade will
materially go
> to MY bottom line - period -- the rest of it is for caffeine-whacked
gamers and
> has no relevance to the average homeowner-PC user for sure!

I think its just pure jealosy. After being marooned on the GEOS island for
years, awaiting planes to drop new features, the tiny band of survivors are
finally going a bit Daffy. Duck. ROTFL!
 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Tom Accuost » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 00:40:48



| << The DOJ nit has melted away like an ice cream cone on a hot summer
| day. It was so full of hot air that even DOJ insiders were smirking.
| >>
|
| No! -- You had gutless wonders in many states AG offices kowtowing
| rather than standing up for what was the right thing to do...

Conn jumped onto that bandwagon as well. Personally, it didn't matter to
me what software was bundled with Win9x; I just buy what I want anyway.
I've used IE and Netscape, and I prefer IE <shrug>. I know that I'm one
of the few people that likes Outlook Express for news over Forte,
although I downloaded XNews to try it out the other day. I really don't
see what the fuss was about - and yes, I read the news and I read both
sides of the arguments. Look, GM uses Delco parts in their cars - if you
don't want a Delco AM/FM/Cassette stereo, should the local Chevy dealer
be forced to wire the car for a JVC or Panasonic system? Should any car
dealer be forced to sell cars without certain features so you could add
them "aftermarket" style at your leisure - and should they be compelled
to make sure that the wiring, etc., is going to be compatible?

Look, it's not a perfect analogy, but my point is that users are free to
learn about their computers and customize them whatever way they want.
The manufacturers, however, should be free to come up with whatever
marketing strategy they want - that's called "free enterprise business
practice". The fact is that most users don't care enough about learning
how to set up, tweak and customize their boxes. Frankly, I no longer
care about customizing my cars, I just want to put gas and oil in them
periodically and drive them. Why shoudl the "stupids" have to worry
about customizing their computers?

 Because I *have* to buy gasoline (Windows) to be in tune
| with the mainstream, in no way means I have to like it -- even though
| current businesses require it's usage because their IT folks are
| total slaves to marketing as opposed to simply using tools that do
| the job for them.

I don't think that IT guys are on the marketing bandwagon; I think that
they're more concerned about getting the corporate network set up and
running with the least amount of headaches. If MS comes up with a
well-integrated "solution", e.g., Office XP on top of NT, and the system
seems too run 95% of the time with little tweaking, then an IT
department would be crazy not to take advantage of that. A small office
might want to take some time to set up and run Linux and StarOffice, but
on a 200 person networked group it might be a strain on the IT resources
to get drivers, training, etc.

| CLASSIC example (IMO) is the unmitigated WASTE of time folks have
| squandered using Powerpoint to make presentations "pretty" -- an
| utterly flagrant waste of productivity -- and we wonder why we (USA)
| is losing jobs to India, etc. in the IT field.  Absolutely
| mind-boggling that we are continuing down this path...

Although I don't understand what PP has to do with anything, I do agree
with you: I've seen more people screwing around hooking up PP on a
laptop linked to a projector... ugh. But that's just me; many people
just want some bullet points and a rough overview, and then off to get
the danish in the back.

|
| I will continue to use the tools that do the job for me -- having
| anyone tell me that I *have* to upgrade simnply because some
| marketing jackass has convinced the CEO that it's the right thing to
| do is an incredible waste of resources, productivity, and time.

Yeah! Oh, wait - *I'm* the CEO here, and I get to decide what we'll be
using <weg>

SHOW
| me how that upgrade will materially go to MY bottom line - period --
| the rest of it is for caffeine-whacked gamers and has no relevance to
| the average homeowner-PC user for sure!

And here we get back into the concept of "basic computing", for which I
was lambasted a week ago. Personally, I've been of the opinion for the
last few years that the "average computer user" is better off using a
mid-range PC running MS Works on WinME than they are running a lowe
powered DOS box running GEOS. Why? Because running ME (or now, XP Home)
allows the user to - if they're so inclined - to buy Roxio EZ-CD Creator
or dB-PowerAmp or some type of photo software and spend time hooking up
the now-ubiquitous USB digital cameras and PDA's.

Tom

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 03:17:45


.......>Why should the "stupids" have to worry about customizing their
computers?

Is this a rethorical question, or do you believe that computer equipped
with Windows can just be ran without customization and maintenance? I would
just say that every system, more or less, needs that, however the wast majority
of customers get the impression that it is just to .....................drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrive,
well it is that way for sometime, but all users will come to a point, when
the computer doesn't work as expected, and support is required. I also wonder
where this illusion that it is just to ...................drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrive
comes from?

BR,
Hans

PS. Sorry for chopping your posting down, but this was subject I felt a
need to answer DS.

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 03:36:36


Yes, when running DOS tools, like Scandisk, Chkdsk, Defrag, Diskopt and
Debug. OTOH, there is no parallel DOS command structure for GEOS like there
are in Windows NT. I can't execute GEOS commands, except the loader for GEOS,
at the DOS prompt and there is no DOS window in GEOS, but this you probably
know? Sorry to say this, but to me you seem to be an amateur...........

BR,
Hans


> When you are running GEOS under DOS (No Windows Present) do you exit GEOS
> and use command line?



> > Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say that
> every
> > task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful
and
> > efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000 servers,
> > and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop
and
> start
> > a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster and
> simpler,
> > especially when executing commands to follow.
> > I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks for,
like
> > for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done a lot
> faster
> > with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it is a
> nightmare
> > in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone to
> crash.
> > In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton Ghost
> and
> > Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk in
> Windows
> > 98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred, compared
> > to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

> > BR,
> > Hans


> > > Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve an
end
> > goal.
> > > Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line knowledge.
> > Even
> > > if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its not
worth
> > the
> > > time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the
> relatives
> > in
> > > my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge of
> command
> > > line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess,
I
> > am a
> > > bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would you
go
> > out
> > > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using
> > a GUI
> > > interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not using
> > a
> > > specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.



> > > > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect
of
> > > computers.
> > > > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I still
> believe,
> > > > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's
> commands
> > > > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse to learn
> > it as
> > > > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > > > BR,
> > > > Hans


> > > > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example, a
smart
> > four
> > > > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the computer.
> > > Don't
> > > > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading
a
> game,
> > > > I warn
> > > > > you now. ;-)

> > > > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line that
> mostly
> > > > > older users have knowledge about!



> > > > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who don't
> > know
> > > > how
> > > > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little icons.
> > When
> > > > they
> > > > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I have
my
> > bread
> > > > > secured
> > > > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me stressed......will
> > I ever
> > > > get
> > > > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > Hans


> > > > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> > > eccentricities.
> > > > > > Kids
> > > > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows
> oriented.
> > > > I
> > > > > rarely
> > > > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble,
for
> > > example.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> > > managers,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too
> arcane.



> > > > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of
DOS
> > memory
> > > > > > > manager,
> > > > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to mention
> > GEOS
> > > > > tweaks
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of
> messages
> > > > in
> > > > > COGM,
> > > > > > > and***

> > > > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS.
> They
> > > > are
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the
few
> > who
> > > > > need
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there
is
> > > little
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired
> posts
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS
5 on
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > > > fast
> > > > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions
> than
> > > > > Ensemble
> > > > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues
with
> > > GEOS.

> > > > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Tom Accuost » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 03:47:21



|
| .......>Why should the "stupids" have to worry about customizing their
| computers?
|
| Is this a rethorical question, or do you believe that computer
| equipped with Windows can just be ran without customization and
| maintenance? I would just say that every system, more or less, needs
| that, however the wast majority of customers get the impression that
| it is just to .....................drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrive,
| well it is that way for sometime, but all users will come to a point,
| when the computer doesn't work as expected, and support is required.
| I also wonder where this illusion that it is just to
| ...................drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrive comes from?
|
| BR,
| Hans
|
| PS. Sorry for chopping your posting down, but this was subject I felt
| a need to answer DS.

Hey, chop away - I know that some of what I say is irrelevant.

I really beleive that most average home users (i.e., letters, email,
photos, checkbook balancing, etc.) can pretty much buy a decent PC, plug
it in and drrrrrrrrrive. As long as they stick with relatively
mainstream apps and brand name components, there's very little reason
that they can't have months or years with no problems.

Yes, after some period, they'll need support. Lightning fries a modem.
Hard drive gets really fragmented. They fall for the latest AOHell
upgrade. But let me go back to the car analogy: you need to bring it in
for periodic maintenance, change the transmission fluid or some belts,
etc., but if you are careful with it, then rarely do things break down a
lot.

I just bought a refurbed Dell Inspiron, and it came with XP Home and a
few other things already installed. It ran just fine. I loaded up a
bunch of my favorite software and assorted tweaks, and it still ran
fine. I just bought a new desktop system for my wife, an Athlon 2000
with XP Home installed. Ran just fine out of the box. Why should I touch
it? She just wants to drrrrrrrrive it.

Tom

--
Tom

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 03:54:08


Well, all I can say that I don't understand your half-assed logic.........
But this kind of logic it will most probably be laid by persons who never
have been into a real production enviroment......

-Hans

Pat wrote:
> Bob, the logic in most of their arguments can be summed up as one-sided
and
> completely fails to address that GEOS also fails their litmus tests for
> Windows. Amazingly hollow and bogus!

> "Bob" <bob12...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:IypMa.11967$fG.5893@sccrnsc01...
> > LOL! Sure. They exit GEOS and use DOS commands. Why use NewManager?
;)

> > "Pat" <hotpat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:NUnMa.32134$0v4.2348576@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > When you are running GEOS under DOS (No Windows Present) do you exit
> GEOS
> > > and use command line?

> > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200371222485125264@news1.telia.com...
> > > > Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say
that
> > > every
> > > > task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful
> > and
> > > > efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000
> servers,
> > > > and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop
> and
> > > start
> > > > a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster
and
> > > simpler,
> > > > especially when executing commands to follow.
> > > > I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks
for,
> > like
> > > > for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done
a lot
> > > faster
> > > > with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it
is a
> > > nightmare
> > > > in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone
to
> > > crash.
> > > > In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton
> Ghost
> > > and
> > > > Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk
in
> > > Windows
> > > > 98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred,
> > compared
> > > > to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

> > > > BR,
> > > > Hans

> > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve
an
> end
> > > > goal.
> > > > > Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line
> knowledge.
> > > > Even
> > > > > if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its
not
> > worth
> > > > the
> > > > > time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the
> > > relatives
> > > > in
> > > > > my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge
of
> > > command
> > > > > line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess,
> I
> > > > am a
> > > > > bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would
you
> > go
> > > > out
> > > > > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it
> using
> > > > a GUI
> > > > > interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not
> using
> > > > a
> > > > > specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.

> > > > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200362901227521152@news1.telia.com...
> > > > > > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect
> of
> > > > > computers.
> > > > > > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I
still
> > > believe,
> > > > > > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's
> > > commands
> > > > > > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse
to
> learn
> > > > it as
> > > > > > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > Hans

> > > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example,
a
> > smart
> > > > four
> > > > > > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the
> > computer.
> > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading
a
> > > game,
> > > > > > I warn
> > > > > > > you now. ;-)

> > > > > > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line
that
> > > mostly
> > > > > > > older users have knowledge about!

> > > > > > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.2003627523394922608@news1.telia.com...
> > > > > > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who
> don't
> > > > know
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little
> icons.
> > > > When
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I
have
> my
> > > > bread
> > > > > > > secured
> > > > > > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me
> stressed......will
> > > > I ever
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > > > Hans

> > > > > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> > > > > eccentricities.
> > > > > > > > Kids
> > > > > > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows
> > > oriented.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > rarely
> > > > > > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble,
> for
> > > > > example.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> > > > > managers,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being
too
> > > arcane.

> > > > > > > > > "C BLANK II" <cblan...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:20030626022306.09634.00001103@mb-m21.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking
of
> DOS
> > > > memory
> > > > > > > > > manager,
> > > > > > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to
> mention
> > > > GEOS
> > > > > > > tweaks
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number
of
> > > messages
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > COGM,
> > > > > > > > > and***

> > > > > > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in
DOS.
> > > They
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this,
the
> > few
> > > > who
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up
there
> > is
> > > > > little
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired
> > > posts
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS
5
> on
> > > > up
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > fast
> > > > > > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions
> > > than
> > > > > > > Ensemble
> > > > > > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues
> > with
> > > > > GEOS.

> > > > > > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 03:42:34


Why do you ask me, if you have all the answers for yourself?

- Hans

Pat wrote:
> Bob, the logic in most of their arguments can be summed up as one-sided
and
> completely fails to address that GEOS also fails their litmus tests for
> Windows. Amazingly hollow and bogus!

> "Bob" <bob12...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:IypMa.11967$fG.5893@sccrnsc01...
> > LOL! Sure. They exit GEOS and use DOS commands. Why use NewManager?
;)

> > "Pat" <hotpat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:NUnMa.32134$0v4.2348576@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > When you are running GEOS under DOS (No Windows Present) do you exit
> GEOS
> > > and use command line?

> > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200371222485125264@news1.telia.com...
> > > > Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say
that
> > > every
> > > > task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful
> > and
> > > > efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000
> servers,
> > > > and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop
> and
> > > start
> > > > a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster
and
> > > simpler,
> > > > especially when executing commands to follow.
> > > > I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks
for,
> > like
> > > > for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done
a lot
> > > faster
> > > > with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it
is a
> > > nightmare
> > > > in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone
to
> > > crash.
> > > > In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton
> Ghost
> > > and
> > > > Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk
in
> > > Windows
> > > > 98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred,
> > compared
> > > > to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

> > > > BR,
> > > > Hans

> > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve
an
> end
> > > > goal.
> > > > > Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line
> knowledge.
> > > > Even
> > > > > if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its
not
> > worth
> > > > the
> > > > > time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the
> > > relatives
> > > > in
> > > > > my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge
of
> > > command
> > > > > line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess,
> I
> > > > am a
> > > > > bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would
you
> > go
> > > > out
> > > > > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it
> using
> > > > a GUI
> > > > > interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not
> using
> > > > a
> > > > > specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.

> > > > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200362901227521152@news1.telia.com...
> > > > > > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect
> of
> > > > > computers.
> > > > > > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I
still
> > > believe,
> > > > > > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's
> > > commands
> > > > > > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse
to
> learn
> > > > it as
> > > > > > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > Hans

> > > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example,
a
> > smart
> > > > four
> > > > > > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the
> > computer.
> > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading
a
> > > game,
> > > > > > I warn
> > > > > > > you now. ;-)

> > > > > > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line
that
> > > mostly
> > > > > > > older users have knowledge about!

> > > > > > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.2003627523394922608@news1.telia.com...
> > > > > > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who
> don't
> > > > know
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little
> icons.
> > > > When
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I
have
> my
> > > > bread
> > > > > > > secured
> > > > > > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me
> stressed......will
> > > > I ever
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > > > Hans

> > > > > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> > > > > eccentricities.
> > > > > > > > Kids
> > > > > > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows
> > > oriented.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > rarely
> > > > > > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble,
> for
> > > > > example.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> > > > > managers,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being
too
> > > arcane.

> > > > > > > > > "C BLANK II" <cblan...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:20030626022306.09634.00001103@mb-m21.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking
of
> DOS
> > > > memory
> > > > > > > > > manager,
> > > > > > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to
> mention
> > > > GEOS
> > > > > > > tweaks
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number
of
> > > messages
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > COGM,
> > > > > > > > > and***

> > > > > > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in
DOS.
> > > They
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this,
the
> > few
> > > > who
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up
there
> > is
> > > > > little
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired
> > > posts
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS
5
> on
> > > > up
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > fast
> > > > > > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions
> > > than
> > > > > > > Ensemble
> > > > > > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues
> > with
> > > > > GEOS.

> > > > > > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:23:03



> Not a good analogy to software. In the case of Windows or Office, you are
> using lots of code that has common links to other code. Its a really tight
> coupling under the hood.

but not at all as tight a coupling as in geos, which has has this since
its inception 10+ years ago, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:

> What I am reading is extreme jealousy for a real OS that covers all bases

sounds like the one hamburger that  satisfies everyones taste buds -- no
need  for steak or ice cream in the windows world.

Quote:> and has Billions invested in Software Engineering that obviates the need, in
> most cases, to spend extra money for ancillary software, from Recording on
> CDs

my brother cannot figure out how to use windows xp cd writing features..
it is too weird for him..  what he really needs is NERO, a well designed
easy to use product for writing CDs  in Windows

Quote:> , Faxing, to Drivers for thousands of devices! To make all of it a Dim
> Sum of optional parts would make most users puke.

I'd love ot see you puke pat!
 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:31:28



> Ah Pat that makes too much sense. In the case of tables in a WP

yes  tables would be a nice added feature  for Geoworite..   no
arguement there.  we'd probabaly would ahve had thehm had geos
developemnt progressd on a steady basis for eth last 10 years..     ah,
Bill Gates is wise to immediately weed the computer OS garden of any and
all competing seedlings.

if

Quote:> Chip-a-roo-dee-doo doesn't need such a feature then it is of course of no
> value. This "I" don't need it mentality is the standard of the GEOS user.
> They are stuck in a time-warp. They really do believe that PC buyers are
> interested in doing "office" type applications at home! NOTHING is further
> from the truth.

Baloney.. people use  $300 MSoffice apps to make garage sale signs, for
rent signs, lost cat/dog signs,    and geos is just fine for doing this
important work

Quote:> The PC buyer of today wants to do "fun" stuff. The PC is
> becoming the entertainment center of the house.

Pipe Dream...   maybe ina tech's house, but not your average persons
house..  most people find it easier to watch their DVDs on a cheap $50
hardware dvd player attached ot the  huge tv set.  I NEVER watch DVD's
on my PC, however, i do watch recorded simpsosns episodes on my tivo
-like TVtuner/hard drive recorder..  only becasue  i am too cheap to buy
a real TIVO becasue they are not low cost products like the DVD player.

Quote:> In all honesty the posts
> from those on COGM are laughable. They are so totally outta touch with the
> PC it is just....(well words escape me.)

Words always escape those who cannot think.
 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:35:59


oh if only micrsooft  would send out refund checks for all the unused
copies of windows that are sitting in corporate offices and people's
closets..  it would revive the economy better than any  child tax credit ...

i would be happy if micorosft would stop halting the resale of old
copies of windows on ebay..


> Yup, they use every (or
> practically every) feature and option and therefore get exactly what they
> pay for. Do you think John is ready to send out discount checks?

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:50:06


r, Bitter Rivals Getting the Ear of the DOJ because they were a FOB.

Quote:

> One thing you fail to address. This tear jerker soap opera of the poor
> innocent user being forced to buy software from Microsoft,

which is true as the only real choice is what is on the shelf,a dn for
low cost computing hardware, where ibm clones were always cheaper than
pricey macs,  clones were th e  way to go..

and MSFT, if it were not foricin gpeopel to buy its unwanted
software/upgardes,  would not have ot discourage oems form selling balnk
hard drive pcs or pc with other OS on them.

  microsoft , in your eyes, could leave the OS makret unguarded adn
surive jsut fine..  if BIll gatres found you on his payroll you would be
fired for trying ot destroy the comapny.  very simple.

  in the first

Quote:> place, is utter rubbish. Just go Mac or Linux,

suppose the mac  hardware costs too much adn the linux software is too
difficult to use??  why not offer the geos option on OEM PCs???

Quote:>no one is sticking a gun in
> your ribs to hand a shilling over to Microsoft.

> In summary, if you * about Microsoft stealing your money and you still
> hand over the cash, then you are a blithering idiot!

well, you hav eot hand over the money to get eth computer, even if you
do not want teh oS..  taht is the problem..   this would not be an issue
if msft would refund  the full cost of unwanted copies of windows..  my
how fast woudl MSft's cash horde  of 40 billion dollars disappear
then???  i once offered to sell micorosft  back  old unused shrink
wrapped  copies of windows 95 at $35 each.. they wanted me ot destroy
them rather than sell them on ebay, and MSFT was very threatening about
htis for some reason.. why oI don't know...  you'd think they would want
peoel using their softwrae...  in hte end, i offered ot destroy the
copies but MSFT was TOO CHEAP to pay my $35 per copy destruciton fee.
well, they are gone now.. maybe microsoft will now ask goodwill adn the
salvation to destroy   every unused windwos license that thaqt gets donated
 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:54:31



> Look, this was virtually a one man crusade against Microsoft, Larry Ellison,
> IMHO.

he would have been wise to buy up geos, buy up all the propreitary code
components in geos, then gnu licensed it all for free distribuiton on
napster, kazaa, etc.

he probably spent more $$$ on his mansion, and more $$ on lawyers adn
governemtn bureaucrats, when it would ahve been much easier and cheaper
to sow and tend to a quality, easy ot use alternative seed in the OS garden.

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:57:35


it is one thing ot compete fairly in a free and open market.. it is
another thing ot  kneecap your competiors , threaten the market owner to
not rent selling  space to competitors, etc, etc, etc.

> The manufacturers, however, should be free to come up with whatever
> marketing strategy they want - that's called "free enterprise business
> practice".

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 05:03:35



> Hey, chop away - I know that some of what I say is irrelevant.

> I really beleive that most average home users (i.e., letters, email,
> photos, checkbook balancing, etc.) can pretty much buy a decent PC, plug
> it in and drrrrrrrrrive.

you are not kidding.. this was exactly my experience with the global
pc..  i was really impressed..    did not see one dos prompt or
config.sys. just powered it on and   "drrrriveeeee"   I did!

Quote:> As long as they stick with relatively
> mainstream apps and brand name components,

brand name components??  ha!  dells are fille d with so many no name
chinese supplied parts.. you are not getting sony CDRW drives in dells
last time i checked.

Quote:> there's very little reason
> that they can't have months or years with no problems.

> Yes, after some period, they'll need support. Lightning fries a modem.
> Hard drive gets really fragmented.

dust clogs one of the many fans desperately needed to cool a windows
powered pc..

  > They fall for the latest AOHell

Quote:> upgrade. But let me go back to the car analogy: you need to bring it in
> for periodic maintenance, change the transmission fluid or some belts,
> etc., but if you are careful with it, then rarely do things break down a
> lot.

> I just bought a refurbed Dell Inspiron, and it came with XP Home and a
> few other things already installed. It ran just fine.

just like the GPC i recently purchased...
 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:57:23






> |
> | .......>Why should the "stupids" have to worry about customizing their
> | computers?
> |
> | Is this a rethorical question, or do you believe that computer
> | equipped with Windows can just be ran without customization and
> | maintenance? I would just say that every system, more or less, needs
> | that, however the wast majority of customers get the impression that
> | it is just to .....................drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrive,
> | well it is that way for sometime, but all users will come to a point,
> | when the computer doesn't work as expected, and support is required.
> | I also wonder where this illusion that it is just to
> | ...................drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrive comes from?
> |
> | BR,
> | Hans
> |
> | PS. Sorry for chopping your posting down, but this was subject I felt
> | a need to answer DS.

> Hey, chop away - I know that some of what I say is irrelevant.

Nope, I didn't say that, but I had nothing to comment on that ;-)

Quote:> I really beleive that most average home users (i.e., letters, email,
> photos, checkbook balancing, etc.) can pretty much buy a decent PC, plug
> it in and drrrrrrrrrive. As long as they stick with relatively
> mainstream apps and brand name components, there's very little reason
> that they can't have months or years with no problems.

Can they without customizing IE? I doubt that. But that is the smallest
problem. Windows tends also to fragment the drives heaviliy, especially in
Windows 98 and ME, also noted in NT4 and Windows 2000. Can't say anything
about XP as I have no experience of it in XP yet. Some years ago I was having
some fun running Norton Speeddisk on a NT4 system, which been i production
for a couple of years. Speeddisk reported it to be heavily fragmented, so
I defragmented it. Well I also turned out that Speeddisk did an optimization
of the data, and putting it on diffrent places on the disk according to how
it was accessed, and man it was a big difference! The computer felt as reborned
and new after the optimization. There is four simple advices I would give
a homeuser in maintaining their computer:

1) Install a Anti-Virus software (good one (free for personal use) at: www.grisoft.de).

2) Customize IE

3) Defragment the harddisk in safe mode, four times a year

4) Run Scandisk in safe mode, if prompted

Quote:> Yes, after some period, they'll need support. Lightning fries a modem.
> Hard drive gets really fragmented. They fall for the latest AOHell
> upgrade. But let me go back to the car analogy: you need to bring it in
> for periodic maintenance, change the transmission fluid or some belts,
> etc., but if you are careful with it, then rarely do things break down
a
> lot.

Well, I don't know if you car analogy is water proof, but as always it applies
on most people but not on some. I have a neighbour, who have constant problems
with his car, and the workshop says he uses it too little, he must use it
more and run some more miles........I don't know, but it must corrode in
every aspect in some peculiar way.
The problems with the use of computers is that they are seen in the same
way as a TV-set,stoves, refrigirators or freezers. They should just work
and work........

Quote:> I just bought a refurbed Dell Inspiron, and it came with XP Home and a
> few other things already installed. It ran just fine. I loaded up a
> bunch of my favorite software and assorted tweaks, and it still ran
> fine. I just bought a new desktop system for my wife, an Athlon 2000
> with XP Home installed. Ran just fine out of the box. Why should I touch
> it? She just wants to drrrrrrrrive it.

Do nothing, have a look at it in a year or two! Bet you will say, it doesn't
feel the same way as it did when it was new.
Then defragment it, and see what happens.......nah........don't do it, defragment
it periodically. Well, I think that Dell is a good choice as long as the
harddrive is mounted a proper way.

Sidenote: My youngest son's Dell broke down yesterday, the harddrive sounded
like woody woodpecker moved in. Open the chassis and found the harddisk mounted
in the most unconventional way, I have seen. Got a hold of a datasheet today
including recommended mouting positions. The way Dell mounted the disk was
not supported, as a matter of fact it was marked out how NOT to mount it.
Sigh, and I suspect there is no warranty left........but OTOH disks are cheap
and I will probably get a big enough for nothing, but I sue will mout the
disk a different recommended way.....

BR,
Hans