Living in the past

Living in the past

Post by Ray Kopczyns » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 22:23:34



<< Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband why
she spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it was on
sale.". >>

:-)  Very good!

Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:54:50


Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say that every
task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful and
efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000 servers,
and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop and start
a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster and simpler,
especially when executing commands to follow.
I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks for, like
for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done a lot faster
with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it is a nightmare
in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone to crash.
In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton Ghost and
Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk in Windows
98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred, compared
to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

BR,
Hans


> Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve an end
goal.
> Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line knowledge.
Even
> if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its not worth
the
> time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the relatives
in
> my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge of command
> line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess, I
am a
> bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would you go
out
> of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using
a GUI
> interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not using
a
> specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.



> > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect of
> computers.
> > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I still believe,
> > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's commands
> > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse to learn
it as
> > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > BR,
> > Hans


> > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example, a smart
four
> > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the computer.
> Don't
> > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading a game,
> > I warn
> > > you now. ;-)

> > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line that mostly
> > > older users have knowledge about!



> > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who don't
know
> > how
> > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little icons.
When
> > they
> > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I have my
bread
> > > secured
> > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me stressed......will
I ever
> > get
> > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > BR,
> > > > Hans


> > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> eccentricities.
> > > > Kids
> > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows oriented.
> > I
> > > rarely
> > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble, for
> example.
> > > > The
> > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> managers,
> > > > but
> > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too arcane.



> > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of DOS
memory
> > > > > manager,
> > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to mention
GEOS
> > > tweaks
> > > > > for
> > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of messages
> > in
> > > COGM,
> > > > > and***

> > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS. They
> > are
> > > > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the few
who
> > > need
> > > > > the
> > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there is
> little
> > > > that
> > > > > ever
> > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired posts
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS 5 on
up
> > and
> > > > fast
> > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions than
> > > Ensemble
> > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues with
> GEOS.

> > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html


 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:03:34


Manufacturing is definitely a special case and there are numerous examples
of it in other industries. Process control being key. Now put things in
perspective. There is no way that you want to upset DOS applications that
work every day. However, you also want to occasionally network PCs that were
originally implemented when DOS Communications was a nascent technology.
Therefore, its valuable if you can successfully run the old DOS apps on an
OS that simultaneously gives the value add of improved networking, while not
disrupting the DOS environment. The answer could be any number of different
scenarios, depending on a host of variables that can not be pre-defined.


> <changed post order>




> ||| Let me see. You favor using command line when the easier, more
> ||| accurate, GUI alternative will accomplish the same thing. I say that
> ||| because there are some instances where you can use command line
> ||| easier than finding a GUI method at your finger tips. For example, I
> ||| like to occaionaly use TRACERT, NET, PING, et al. But I would not
> ||| hesitate to use Explorer for manipulating files.
> |||
> ||| In Windows XP, there is a download called PowerToysXP and one of the
> ||| goodies is a right click method used in Explorer where you can popup
> ||| a DOS window at a given directory. I have it there for the rare
> times
> ||| I need it.
> ||
> || I used to use that "DOS here" option, and for a while I thought it
> was
> || the bee's knees. But I have noticed that I have less and less use for
> || that feature, and frankly, after switchintg to XP last year, I don't
> || remember if I've used anything more than an occassional xcopy with a
> || switch to move files from one drive to another (so I didn't have to
> || keep hitting OK to copy read-only files).
> ||
> || OTOH, there are a few machines out in the shop that still use DOS, so
> I
> || haven't lost the memory of those commands completely <g>.
> ||
> || Tom



> | In most businesses that maintain parity with technology around them,
> | DOS = Old Applications that have not yet been replaced with a Windows
> | alternative, because the person or persons who designed, or installed
> | the application are no longer around, therefore, it sits there like a
> | pot hole that nobody wants to resurface until a new DP manager rides
> | into town on his/her horse and demands a change to the way things are
> | being done. Translation: A newer, bigger budget has been approved!
> |

> This is OT for a GEOS group, so I'm just adding this for general
> interest, and as a change from some of the general bickering <g>:

> In manufacturing, there are a lot of computer applications that simply
> haven't caught up with the 1990's yet (let alone the 2000's). Quite a
> few machine controls are written in old languages, and interface with
> the rest of the machine in old ways. Part of the reason for this is cost
> and potential liablilty: WHen you're milling a $5,000 peice of titanium
> casting with a $500 tool, you don't want to have *any* freezes, hangs or
> other assorted "brain farts". These kinds of mistakes can cost many
> thousands of dollars, and possibly injury to the rest of the machine or
> an operator. I've personally seen bad OS EPROM chips cause completely
> random "crashes" - and I mean that in a literal sense. On the small
> equipmenmt that we use a head crash can cost upwards of $4,000 to repair
> the spindle. I can't imagine what would happen on a machine large enough
> to machine jet engine parts. The over-riding philosophy is "if it an't
> broke, then don't fix it" - especially if the fix could break something
> even bigger.

> The same philosophy applies to the CAD-CAM software as well
> (Computer-Aided Drafting & Computer Assisted Machining). These are
> programs that are used to draw 3D representations of the intricate
> components of engines, medical instruments, and other electromechanical
> controls. Part of the problem is that many of the newer programs ahve a
> difficult time reading each other's formats. If a CAM program is used to
> create a machining program for use on a machine, it's important that it
> reads the numbers correctly. Most of the "blueprints" are so complex
> that it would be a nightmare to have to re-create them; but sometimes it
> happens that a curved line is read incorrectly and a milling cutter
> plunges into the side of a part instead of continuing a contour. As the
> DOS programs are converted into Window-y programs, though, these kinds
> of mistakes become more frequent, so many  companies have simply slapped
> a Win compliant UI on top of the DOS functions and called it "new and
> improved" and "user friendly".

> As it happens, for a while I was using Edit+ to generate some of the
> simpler code used for the machines themselves - it's reletively simple
> and is all ASCII text.

> Tom

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:12:25


The word "I", can have ubiquitous interpretation. Its sometimes the Virtual
I, and could represent any user. CBLANKII may not need one option, yet
another user does, who in turn does not need the one that CBLANKII needs.
Likewise, you don't order everything on a restaurant menu, just what you
want and that's different from the person across from you. Yet, all the
items on the menu get ordered by others and if an item is never picked, it
disappears off the next printing of the menu. If you pay Property Taxes in
your town, and the school department lives off that revenue, then I guess
you could claim that since you did not have a child, that you should be
given a special discount on your taxes. I like that idea, since I don't have
a kid.




> Date: Mon, Jun 30, 2003 11:33 EDT

> The cost of these features is rolled into the one_price_for_all that
> Microsoft uses.***

> Ah...so I could pay for even more features I don't need or use. What I use
GEOS
> provides quite nicely. I paid extra for many Windows apps in the past for
all
> those extra bells and whistles beyond GEOS. I seldom use them, and, in
fact,
> Paint Shop Pro provides most of my extra need (at a very low price)
followed by
> a rare use for convenience from Corel.

> Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband why
she
> spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it was on
> sale.".

> Chip Blank
> GUI
> GeoGrafix

> The GEOS Users International website is at:
> http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:23:52


Not a good analogy to software. In the case of Windows or Office, you are
using lots of code that has common links to other code. Its a really tight
coupling under the hood. One particular option, although not used
specifically by you, may share the same code that is used by another option
that you do use. In fact, most of Windows XP uses the Object model of
reusable common code.

What I am reading is extreme jealousy for a real OS that covers all bases
and has Billions invested in Software Engineering that obviates the need, in
most cases, to spend extra money for ancillary software, from Recording on
CDs, Faxing, to Drivers for thousands of devices! To make all of it a Dim
Sum of optional parts would make most users puke. And since I have never
heard of this petty complaint being aired by enough Windows users to give a
tinkers damn, I'll file it under "Frustrated GEOS Users". <g>


Quote:> << Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband
why
> she spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it
was on
> sale.". >>

> :-)  Very good!

> Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:25:47


No, its just good practice to do backups and nobody, not even those who are
not found of me, will advocate otherwise, if in fact backing up is an doable
option by the user.


> that is like telling aptient to quit smoking, and then getting them to
> actually do it.


> > A better way is to do backups. <g>

> > Regards your "hanging judge" mentality vis--vis Windows, am I glad
you're
> > not my doctor. Every ailment would result in another organ being
> > obliterated. LOL!

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 07:26:53


When you are running GEOS under DOS (No Windows Present) do you exit GEOS
and use command line?


> Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say that
every
> task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful and
> efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000 servers,
> and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop and
start
> a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster and
simpler,
> especially when executing commands to follow.
> I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks for, like
> for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done a lot
faster
> with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it is a
nightmare
> in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone to
crash.
> In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton Ghost
and
> Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk in
Windows
> 98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred, compared
> to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

> BR,
> Hans


> > Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve an end
> goal.
> > Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line knowledge.
> Even
> > if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its not worth
> the
> > time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the
relatives
> in
> > my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge of
command
> > line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess, I
> am a
> > bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would you go
> out
> > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using
> a GUI
> > interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not using
> a
> > specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.



> > > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect of
> > computers.
> > > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I still
believe,
> > > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's
commands
> > > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse to learn
> it as
> > > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > > BR,
> > > Hans


> > > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example, a smart
> four
> > > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the computer.
> > Don't
> > > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading a
game,
> > > I warn
> > > > you now. ;-)

> > > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line that
mostly
> > > > older users have knowledge about!



> > > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who don't
> know
> > > how
> > > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little icons.
> When
> > > they
> > > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I have my
> bread
> > > > secured
> > > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me stressed......will
> I ever
> > > get
> > > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > > BR,
> > > > > Hans


> > > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> > eccentricities.
> > > > > Kids
> > > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows
oriented.
> > > I
> > > > rarely
> > > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble, for
> > example.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> > managers,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too
arcane.



> > > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of DOS
> memory
> > > > > > manager,
> > > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to mention
> GEOS
> > > > tweaks
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of
messages
> > > in
> > > > COGM,
> > > > > > and***

> > > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS.
They
> > > are
> > > > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the few
> who
> > > > need
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there is
> > little
> > > > > that
> > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired
posts
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS 5 on
> up
> > > and
> > > > > fast
> > > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions
than
> > > > Ensemble
> > > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues with
> > GEOS.

> > > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Bob » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:15:52


Ah Pat that makes too much sense. In the case of tables in a WP if
Chip-a-roo-dee-doo doesn't need such a feature then it is of course of no
value. This "I" don't need it mentality is the standard of the GEOS user.
They are stuck in a time-warp. They really do believe that PC buyers are
interested in doing "office" type applications at home! NOTHING is further
from the truth. The PC buyer of today wants to do "fun" stuff. The PC is
becoming the entertainment center of the house. In all honesty the posts
from those on COGM are laughable. They are so totally outta touch with the
PC it is just....(well words escape me.) Note I'm talking only about the PC.
It is a personal computer. For personal stuff. MP3, DVD, 3D Games, Internet,
Downloading, CD Burning, Encoding Video. FUN stuff. "Personally", :), I
don't even have an "office" application installed on my "Personal Computer."
Unless you consider WordPad and office application :)


> The word "I", can have ubiquitous interpretation. Its sometimes the
Virtual
> I, and could represent any user. CBLANKII may not need one option, yet
> another user does, who in turn does not need the one that CBLANKII needs.
> Likewise, you don't order everything on a restaurant menu, just what you
> want and that's different from the person across from you. Yet, all the
> items on the menu get ordered by others and if an item is never picked, it
> disappears off the next printing of the menu. If you pay Property Taxes in
> your town, and the school department lives off that revenue, then I guess
> you could claim that since you did not have a child, that you should be
> given a special discount on your taxes. I like that idea, since I don't
have
> a kid.




> > Date: Mon, Jun 30, 2003 11:33 EDT

> > The cost of these features is rolled into the one_price_for_all that
> > Microsoft uses.***

> > Ah...so I could pay for even more features I don't need or use. What I
use
> GEOS
> > provides quite nicely. I paid extra for many Windows apps in the past
for
> all
> > those extra bells and whistles beyond GEOS. I seldom use them, and, in
> fact,
> > Paint Shop Pro provides most of my extra need (at a very low price)
> followed by
> > a rare use for convenience from Corel.

> > Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband
why
> she
> > spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it was
on
> > sale.".

> > Chip Blank
> > GUI
> > GeoGrafix

> > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Bob » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:18:37



Quote:>I'll file it under "Frustrated GEOS Users". <g>

Yup. It simply shows what a total misunderstanding of OS's & Applications
they have. Sad. Just really, really sad. Not to mention not one of them
doesn't use Windows as their primary OS. Check the posts here. NewsReader
anyone!! :) LOL!
 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Bob » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:19:52


LOL! Sure. They exit GEOS and use DOS commands. Why use NewManager? ;)


> When you are running GEOS under DOS (No Windows Present) do you exit GEOS
> and use command line?



> > Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say that
> every
> > task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful
and
> > efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000 servers,
> > and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop and
> start
> > a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster and
> simpler,
> > especially when executing commands to follow.
> > I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks for,
like
> > for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done a lot
> faster
> > with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it is a
> nightmare
> > in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone to
> crash.
> > In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton Ghost
> and
> > Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk in
> Windows
> > 98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred,
compared
> > to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

> > BR,
> > Hans


> > > Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve an end
> > goal.
> > > Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line knowledge.
> > Even
> > > if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its not
worth
> > the
> > > time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the
> relatives
> > in
> > > my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge of
> command
> > > line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess, I
> > am a
> > > bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would you
go
> > out
> > > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using
> > a GUI
> > > interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not using
> > a
> > > specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.



> > > > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect of
> > > computers.
> > > > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I still
> believe,
> > > > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's
> commands
> > > > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse to learn
> > it as
> > > > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > > > BR,
> > > > Hans


> > > > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example, a
smart
> > four
> > > > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the
computer.
> > > Don't
> > > > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading a
> game,
> > > > I warn
> > > > > you now. ;-)

> > > > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line that
> mostly
> > > > > older users have knowledge about!



> > > > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who don't
> > know
> > > > how
> > > > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little icons.
> > When
> > > > they
> > > > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I have my
> > bread
> > > > > secured
> > > > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me stressed......will
> > I ever
> > > > get
> > > > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > Hans


> > > > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> > > eccentricities.
> > > > > > Kids
> > > > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows
> oriented.
> > > > I
> > > > > rarely
> > > > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble, for
> > > example.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> > > managers,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too
> arcane.



> > > > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of DOS
> > memory
> > > > > > > manager,
> > > > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to mention
> > GEOS
> > > > > tweaks
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of
> messages
> > > > in
> > > > > COGM,
> > > > > > > and***

> > > > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS.
> They
> > > > are
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the
few
> > who
> > > > > need
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there
is
> > > little
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired
> posts
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS 5 on
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > > > fast
> > > > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions
> than
> > > > > Ensemble
> > > > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues
with
> > > GEOS.

> > > > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Ray Kopczyns » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:45:19


<< In the case of Windows or Office, you are using lots of code that has common
links to other code. Its a really tight coupling under the hood. One particular
option, although not used specifically by you, may share the same code that is
used by another option that you do use. >>

Aye, there's the rub... Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the key "bone
of contention" vis-a-vis the DOJ vs. MS lawsuit? "Jealousy"???  That's a real
stretch for sure! If I "like" a particular utility program for sake of
discussion, I object be being required to purchase the "whole enchilada" when I
will not use nor derive any benefit from that. That it has become ubiquitous
(regardless of the reason), still makes me gag. Yes - the "marketplace" has
spoken -- no argument there. The methodology to get it to that point is what we
are having reams & reams & ream of discussion about...  :-)

Ray

>Subject: Re: Living in the past

>Date: 7/1/03 3:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time

>Not a good analogy to software. In the case of Windows or Office, you are
>using lots of code that has common links to other code. Its a really tight
>coupling under the hood. One particular option, although not used
>specifically by you, may share the same code that is used by another option
>that you do use. In fact, most of Windows XP uses the Object model of
>reusable common code.

>What I am reading is extreme jealousy for a real OS that covers all bases
>and has Billions invested in Software Engineering that obviates the need, in
>most cases, to spend extra money for ancillary software, from Recording on
>CDs, Faxing, to Drivers for thousands of devices! To make all of it a Dim
>Sum of optional parts would make most users puke. And since I have never
>heard of this petty complaint being aired by enough Windows users to give a
>tinkers damn, I'll file it under "Frustrated GEOS Users". <g>



>> << Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband
>why
>> she spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it
>was on
>> sale.". >>

>> :-)  Very good!

>> Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:18:28


Dead on! And the same users who whine about Windows, are just hypocritical
enough to give BBX Ensemble a pass on the same issue. There clearly exists
two standards for this foolishness. Of course, you know what the stock reply
will be, from the typical GEOS extremist? Yup, they use every (or
practically every) feature and option and therefore get exactly what they
pay for. Do you think John is ready to send out discount checks?


> Ah Pat that makes too much sense. In the case of tables in a WP if
> Chip-a-roo-dee-doo doesn't need such a feature then it is of course of no
> value. This "I" don't need it mentality is the standard of the GEOS user.
> They are stuck in a time-warp. They really do believe that PC buyers are
> interested in doing "office" type applications at home! NOTHING is further
> from the truth. The PC buyer of today wants to do "fun" stuff. The PC is
> becoming the entertainment center of the house. In all honesty the posts
> from those on COGM are laughable. They are so totally outta touch with the
> PC it is just....(well words escape me.) Note I'm talking only about the
PC.
> It is a personal computer. For personal stuff. MP3, DVD, 3D Games,
Internet,
> Downloading, CD Burning, Encoding Video. FUN stuff. "Personally", :), I
> don't even have an "office" application installed on my "Personal
Computer."
> Unless you consider WordPad and office application :)



> > The word "I", can have ubiquitous interpretation. Its sometimes the
> Virtual
> > I, and could represent any user. CBLANKII may not need one option, yet
> > another user does, who in turn does not need the one that CBLANKII
needs.
> > Likewise, you don't order everything on a restaurant menu, just what you
> > want and that's different from the person across from you. Yet, all the
> > items on the menu get ordered by others and if an item is never picked,
it
> > disappears off the next printing of the menu. If you pay Property Taxes
in
> > your town, and the school department lives off that revenue, then I
guess
> > you could claim that since you did not have a child, that you should be
> > given a special discount on your taxes. I like that idea, since I don't
> have
> > a kid.




> > > Date: Mon, Jun 30, 2003 11:33 EDT
> > > Message-id:


- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> > > The cost of these features is rolled into the one_price_for_all that
> > > Microsoft uses.***

> > > Ah...so I could pay for even more features I don't need or use. What I
> use
> > GEOS
> > > provides quite nicely. I paid extra for many Windows apps in the past
> for
> > all
> > > those extra bells and whistles beyond GEOS. I seldom use them, and, in
> > fact,
> > > Paint Shop Pro provides most of my extra need (at a very low price)
> > followed by
> > > a rare use for convenience from Corel.

> > > Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband
> why
> > she
> > > spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it
was
> on
> > > sale.".

> > > Chip Blank
> > > GUI
> > > GeoGrafix

> > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:30:17


The DOJ nit has melted away like an ice cream cone on a hot summer day. It
was so full of hot air that even DOJ insiders were smirking. File that one
under, Bitter Rivals Getting the Ear of the DOJ because they were a FOB.

One thing you fail to address. This tear jerker soap opera of the poor
innocent user being forced to buy software from Microsoft, in the first
place, is utter rubbish. Just go Mac or Linux, no one is sticking a gun in
your ribs to hand a shilling over to Microsoft.

In summary, if you * about Microsoft stealing your money and you still
hand over the cash, then you are a blithering idiot! Go some where else for
your computing needs. LOL!


> << In the case of Windows or Office, you are using lots of code that has
common
> links to other code. Its a really tight coupling under the hood. One
particular
> option, although not used specifically by you, may share the same code
that is
> used by another option that you do use. >>

> Aye, there's the rub... Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that the key
"bone
> of contention" vis-a-vis the DOJ vs. MS lawsuit? "Jealousy"???  That's a
real
> stretch for sure! If I "like" a particular utility program for sake of
> discussion, I object be being required to purchase the "whole enchilada"
when I
> will not use nor derive any benefit from that. That it has become
ubiquitous
> (regardless of the reason), still makes me gag. Yes - the "marketplace"
has
> spoken -- no argument there. The methodology to get it to that point is
what we
> are having reams & reams & ream of discussion about...  :-)

> Ray

> >Subject: Re: Living in the past

> >Date: 7/1/03 3:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time

> >Not a good analogy to software. In the case of Windows or Office, you are
> >using lots of code that has common links to other code. Its a really
tight
> >coupling under the hood. One particular option, although not used
> >specifically by you, may share the same code that is used by another
option
> >that you do use. In fact, most of Windows XP uses the Object model of
> >reusable common code.

> >What I am reading is extreme jealousy for a real OS that covers all bases
> >and has Billions invested in Software Engineering that obviates the need,
in
> >most cases, to spend extra money for ancillary software, from Recording
on
> >CDs, Faxing, to Drivers for thousands of devices! To make all of it a Dim
> >Sum of optional parts would make most users puke. And since I have never
> >heard of this petty complaint being aired by enough Windows users to give
a
> >tinkers damn, I'll file it under "Frustrated GEOS Users". <g>



> >> << Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her
husband
> >why
> >> she spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it
> >was on
> >> sale.". >>

> >> :-)  Very good!

> >> Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:34:03


Bob, the logic in most of their arguments can be summed up as one-sided and
completely fails to address that GEOS also fails their litmus tests for
Windows. Amazingly hollow and bogus!

"Bob" <bob12...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:IypMa.11967$fG.5893@sccrnsc01...
> LOL! Sure. They exit GEOS and use DOS commands. Why use NewManager? ;)

> "Pat" <hotpat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:NUnMa.32134$0v4.2348576@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > When you are running GEOS under DOS (No Windows Present) do you exit
GEOS
> > and use command line?

> > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > news:NewsReader.1.0.200371222485125264@news1.telia.com...
> > > Yep I would definitly use the command prompt, and I can still say that
> > every
> > > task done on the command promt is executed faster, often more powerful
> and
> > > efficient. One good example is  when managing Windows NT4, 2000
servers,
> > > and Legato Networker servers. Even in such a simple task as to stop
and
> > start
> > > a service in NT, I use a command prompt prior to GUI. It is faster and
> > simpler,
> > > especially when executing commands to follow.
> > > I use DOS too, still relatively often, when creating boot disks for,
> like
> > > for example, Partition Magic. Repartitioning har drives is done a lot
> > faster
> > > with DOS diskette set booting from DOS, than NT. I would say it is a
> > nightmare
> > > in NT compared to DOS. In NT this is a very slow process and prone to
> > crash.
> > > In DOS it is fast and elegant, with just one quick reboot. Norton
Ghost
> > and
> > > Imagecast cloning is also done fast and elegant in DOS. Scandisk in
> > Windows
> > > 98 SE runned from the DOS prompt, or failsafe mode is preferred,
> compared
> > > to normal mode. So there are small bits and pieces here and there.

> > > BR,
> > > Hans

> > > Pat wrote:
> > > > Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve an
end
> > > goal.
> > > > Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line
knowledge.
> > > Even
> > > > if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its not
> worth
> > > the
> > > > time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the
> > relatives
> > > in
> > > > my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge of
> > command
> > > > line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess,
I
> > > am a
> > > > bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would you
> go
> > > out
> > > > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it
using
> > > a GUI
> > > > interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not
using
> > > a
> > > > specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.

> > > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.200362901227521152@news1.telia.com...
> > > > > Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect
of
> > > > computers.
> > > > > Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I still
> > believe,
> > > > > by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's
> > commands
> > > > > is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse to
learn
> > > it as
> > > > > it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> > > > > BR,
> > > > > Hans

> > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example, a
> smart
> > > four
> > > > > > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the
> computer.
> > > > Don't
> > > > > > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading a
> > game,
> > > > > I warn
> > > > > > you now. ;-)

> > > > > > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line that
> > mostly
> > > > > > older users have knowledge about!

> > > > > > "Hans Lindgren" <Hans.Lindg...@abc.se> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:NewsReader.1.0.2003627523394922608@news1.telia.com...
> > > > > > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who
don't
> > > know
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little
icons.
> > > When
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I have
my
> > > bread
> > > > > > secured
> > > > > > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me
stressed......will
> > > I ever
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > retired? <BG>

> > > > > > > BR,
> > > > > > > Hans

> > > > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > > > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> > > > eccentricities.
> > > > > > > Kids
> > > > > > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows
> > oriented.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > rarely
> > > > > > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble,
for
> > > > example.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
> > > > managers,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too
> > arcane.

> > > > > > > > "C BLANK II" <cblan...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:20030626022306.09634.00001103@mb-m21.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of
DOS
> > > memory
> > > > > > > > manager,
> > > > > > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to
mention
> > > GEOS
> > > > > > tweaks
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of
> > messages
> > > > > in
> > > > > > COGM,
> > > > > > > > and***

> > > > > > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS.
> > They
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the
> few
> > > who
> > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there
> is
> > > > little
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired
> > posts
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > old AOL
> > > > > > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS 5
on
> > > up
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > fast
> > > > > > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions
> > than
> > > > > > Ensemble
> > > > > > > > 2.01.
> > > > > > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues
> with
> > > > GEOS.

> > > > > > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > > > > > GUI
> > > > > > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Ray Kopczyns » Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:38:24


<< The DOJ nit has melted away like an ice cream cone on a hot summer day. It
was so full of hot air that even DOJ insiders were smirking. >>

No! -- You had gutless wonders in many states AG offices kowtowing rather than
standing up for what was the right thing to do...

<<...if you * about Microsoft stealing your money and you still hand over
the cash, then you are a blithering idiot! Go some where else for your
computing needs. LOL! >>

What an utterly inane statement Pat! I thought better of your language skills
for sure! At least you agree that MS is stealing our money! That's akin to
saying that because I buy gasoline I'm an idiot because I don't like it and
should go buy gasahol, methanol, etc.  Ludicrous! Because I *have* to buy
gasoline (Windows) to be in tune with the mainstream, in no way means I have to
like it -- even though current businesses require it's usage because their IT
folks are total slaves to marketing as opposed to simply using tools that do
the job for them.

CLASSIC example (IMO) is the unmitigated WASTE of time folks have squandered
using Powerpoint to make presentations "pretty" -- an utterly flagrant waste of
productivity -- and we wonder why we (USA) is losing jobs to India, etc. in the
IT field.  Absolutely mind-boggling that we are continuing down this path...  

I will continue to use the tools that do the job for me -- having anyone tell
me that I *have* to upgrade simnply because some marketing jackass has
convinced the CEO that it's the right thing to do is an incredible waste of
resources, productivity, and time. SHOW me how that upgrade will materially go
to MY bottom line - period -- the rest of it is for caffeine-whacked gamers and
has no relevance to the average homeowner-PC user for sure!

RANT = Off

Ray