Living in the past

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:54:47



Yep......nowadays.......previously it was called MS-DOS prompt.....so it
had something to do with DOS, unclear how much except for the name and the
commands.....

BR,
Hans


> Not at all. Command line is command line. DOS is DOS. Two totally different
> beings.



> > Does this also mean that your campuses have dropped NT command line
> training?

> > BR,
> > Hans


> > > Across our 42 campuses "we" have dropped DOS training some 2 years
ago.



> > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
> eccentricities.
> > > Kids
> > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows oriented.
I
> > > rarely
> > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble, for example.
> > The
> > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory managers,
> > but
> > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too arcane.



> > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of DOS memory
> > > > manager,
> > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to mention GEOS
> > tweaks
> > > > for
> > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of messages
in
> > COGM,
> > > > and***

> > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS. They
are
> > easy
> > > > to
> > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the few
who
> > need
> > > > the
> > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there is
little
> > > that
> > > > ever
> > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired posts
in
> > the
> > > > old AOL
> > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS 5 on up
and
> > fast
> > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions than
> Ensemble
> > > > 2.01.
> > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues with
GEOS.

> > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > GUI
> > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:19:44


Yes, I was amazed when I started discovering how many resources this takes.
Its not Windows or the PC. This is true on other platforms and Workstations,
as well. My friend just gave his son a 2.8 GHz Shuttle Cube with 180GB of
disk space for his *. He has two game computers on a Home LAN and an
X-Box. He and his friends play games side-by-side, and over the broadband
cable in multi-user mode. These kids are pushing the envelope and building
some sophisticated nets using cable. Personally, the last game I played from
beginning to end was Leisure Suit Larry from Sierra. I guess role playing
games are out of favor now. Everything is shoot 'em up and action!!!!


> Your not the only one. I have VHS tapes I turn into AVI then MPEG and onto
> VCD. I also do a ton of multi-track recording. Speed is a very good thing.
> Tons of hard drive space is a very good thing. Ton's of RAM is a very good
> thing.





> > > no one needs any of this speed anymore at this point in time...

> > I need it. Why do I need it? I am doing MPEG-2 Encodes of 2 hour videos
> that
> > can take 15 hours of processing time for a Multi-Pass with Variable
> Bitrate.
> > That means I have to WAIT 15 hours to check my results and keep it or
toss
> > it.

> > Am I the only one with this need? There are many users out there. Check
> this
> > out:

> > http://www.veryComputer.com/

> > All these people need the speed and disk space. My last capture of a
> Digital
> > Video created a single one-hour video that was a 12.5GB file. The best
> Video
> > and Audio applications will not run on Windows 98 and require Windows XP
> > with 512MB considered entry level. Some of these people have 1GB of
> memory,
> > and even higher.

> > Who are these users? You'd be surprised how many novices are trying to
> learn
> > but there are all levels and it ranges from hobby to professionals and
> > engineers. With all the consumer, prosumer, and pro camcorders out
there,
> > more users are capturing their videos and authoring them onto VCD, SVCD,
> and
> > DVDs.

> > > computers are fast enough as stand alone devices...but progress is
> > > progress and it is nice to have faster newer stuff as long as you can
> > > afford it...

> > Remember when Intel came out with its first 1GHz processor? It seemed
like
> > the speed war was back on the front burner with AMD. Then, the P4 broke
> > through 2GHz and now you can get a 2GHz PC for one-third the cost of a
386
> > PC 12 years ago. As the speeds climbed to 3GHz, it seemed it would keep
> > escalating forever. But that has not happened. The CPU speeds have
peeked
> at
> > around 3GHz and Intel is opting to spend time re-engineering the
> Front-Side
> > Bus speeds so that memory access will be vastly improved with delays
> > falling. So we are taking a break in the processor speed war to fix the
> > Memory to CPU bottleneck problem. During this period, the cost of over
> 2GHz
> > PCs will come down further. The end result will be a vast improvement in
> the
> > average PC handling complex and difficult applications. Not too many
years
> > ago, you needed a Silicon Graphics workstation to do what is now
reachable
> > to a wider audience.

> > Who benefits:

> > (1) Networkers (ie. Gigabit Ethernet)
> > (2) Multimedia Applications (eg. MPEG compression algorithms)
> > (3) Database Access
> > (4) Gamers

> > The above includes a lot of users, especially if you have read Variety
> > recently where Games is a huge money makers and game revenues exceeds
> movie
> > box office revenues in the US.

> > >    what people really need in "first world" countries is faster online
> > > access into every home.. it is the last mile that is the bottleneck.
56
> > > k modems should be obsoleted just like 14.4 modems were...

> > I can't disagree that its what the majority wants. But its not the only
> hot
> > item on most hot item lists!


> > > > Supply and Demand are always at work in determining pricing.

> > > > But the sweet spot is what governs the general pricing on memory
from
> > the
> > > > manufacturing point of view.

> > > > Sweet Spot = What memory types the manufacturers are tooled up for,
to
> > crank
> > > > out in large quantities, at the lowest per unit price. Not too long
> ago,
> > it
> > > > was DRAM in 72-pin SIMM packaging. Then it changed to SDRAM in DIMM
> > > > packaging. Now DDR-SDRAM, and that's also changing as the mobo
> > Front-Side
> > > > Bus speeds ramps up to 800MHz and higher (overclocked version of
> 1200MHz
> > has
> > > > been announced). Why? Apple is going that route, Sun is going that
> > route,
> > > > IBM is going that route. Its engineering trying to ring-out
> bottlenecks
> > in
> > > > design and memory bus speeds definitely slow down the coupling
between
> > CPU
> > > > and memory access. Cache is like a band-aid to help alleviate the
> > problem
> > > > but the better solution is to make the highways bigger and faster.

> > > > The reason for the speed is not to help GeoWrite or Word be quicker
> but
> > its
> > > > for Networking and Video.


 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:35:42


Humans are quite adaptive. They learn what is needed to achieve an end goal.
Its rare for an average consumer to ever need command line knowledge. Even
if they learned it, the use would be some infrequent that its not worth the
time involved to have anything but a cursory knowledge. All the relatives in
my immediate family use all kinds of PCs but have zero knowledge of command
line. I'm an old timer so I have lots of knowledge but I'll confess, I am a
bit rusty on DOS commands but rarely need to use it. Hans, would you go out
of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using a GUI
interface? Of course, I am referring to scenarios where your not using a
specific 16-bit DOS application, like GEOS or the like.


> Well, smart is a big word, I would say with little or no respect of
computers.
> Some kids are smart but many will also end up messing up. I still believe,
> by every day's practice, that knowing the command line and it's commands
> is still quite useful. And I feel pity for those who refuse to learn it as
> it is often the emergency exit solving a problem.

> BR,
> Hans


> > Kids are very smart and savvy about computers. For example, a smart four
> > year old is annoyed if you try to help them with using the computer.
Don't
> > get your fingers near a smart kid who is hell bent on loading a game,
> I warn
> > you now. ;-)

> > All kidding aside, its true, DOS is an ancient command line that mostly
> > older users have knowledge about!



> > > Well, that is correct. I often meet Windows engineers who don't know
> how
> > > the DOS prompt works. They just can click on cute little icons. When
> they
> > > are forced to use the command line they shiver. OTOH, I have my bread
> > secured
> > > for the rest of my life. But *that* makes me stressed......will I ever
> get
> > > retired? <BG>

> > > BR,
> > > Hans


> > > > Older PC users who were exposed to DOS remember all the
eccentricities.
> > > Kids
> > > > are clueless about DOS. Even their games are all Windows oriented.
> I
> > rarely
> > > > see a DOS book in a computer section of Barnes and Noble, for
example.
> > > The
> > > > average DOS user was more amenable to learning about memory
managers,
> > > but
> > > > the average Windows user is going to eschew DOS as being too arcane.



> > > > > ***Minor Setup. <Smirk> GEOS often requires tweaking of DOS memory
> > > > manager,
> > > > > plus other AUTOEXEC and CONFIGSYS parameters, not to mention GEOS
> > tweaks
> > > > for
> > > > > various and sundry reasons. Look back at the number of messages
> in
> > COGM,
> > > > and***

> > > > > Pat, there are a handful of settings to setup GEOS in DOS. They
> are
> > > easy
> > > > to
> > > > > learn and with a little help from such groups as this, the few who
> > need
> > > > the
> > > > > help (I was one back then) learn easily. Once set up there is
little
> > > that
> > > > ever
> > > > > needs to be done again. The biggest flurry of help desired posts
> in
> > > the
> > > > old AOL
> > > > > forum and here had mainly to do with dealing with MSDOS 5 on up
> and
> > > fast
> > > > > systems beyond 486s. That was fixed in newer GEOS versions than
> > Ensemble
> > > > 2.01.
> > > > > Haven't seen many posts since then about DOS setup issues with
GEOS.

> > > > > Chip Blank
> > > > > GUI
> > > > > GeoGrafix

> > > > > The GEOS Users International website is at:
> > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by C BLANK » Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:35:50


***Isn't it better Chip-ah-roo, to have a feature available and not need it
then to need it an not have it?



Quote:> ***Answer
> why tables are always on GEOS' "wish-list".***

> Because, Bobo, some people want them. However, 'most' people don't use
them.

>***

Why pay for something not used? In order to have tables that I don't use I
would need new software, which requires new hardware to run. I figure to have
stuff I don't use would cost me about $500 minimum (on sales with rebates). No
thanks.

Chip Blank
GUI
GeoGrafix

The GEOS Users International website is at:
http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Ray Kopczyns » Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:20:56


<<...would you go out of your way to do something via command line if you could
do it using a GUI interface? >>

Absolutely!  I have a "DOS" icon on my home PC and on my NT-box at work...

Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:24:59


when i have ot repair the software on a windows pc, which often means
deleting and reinstalling windows, i use  "deltree" and "attrib" to
delectively delete all files and folder EXCEPT FOR DOCUMENT
FOLDERS/files whic 99% fo the time people have not backed up.

this way i get a clean windows installation without having to format the
hard dive, preserving someone's precious documents without having ot
reisntall a new windows on top of an old bad windows

it is too  difficult to do this inside of windows, especially one that
is not running properly..


> Hans, would you go out
> of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using a GUI
> interface?

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:27:05


Let me see. You favor using command line when the easier, more accurate, GUI
alternative will accomplish the same thing. I say that because there are
some instances where you can use command line easier than finding a GUI
method at your finger tips. For example, I like to occaionaly use TRACERT,
NET, PING, et al. But I would not hesitate to use Explorer for manipulating
files.

In Windows XP, there is a download called PowerToysXP and one of the goodies
is a right click method used in Explorer where you can popup a DOS window at
a given directory. I have it there for the rare times I need it.


Quote:> <<...would you go out of your way to do something via command line if you
could
> do it using a GUI interface? >>

> Absolutely!  I have a "DOS" icon on my home PC and on my NT-box at work...

> Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:33:13


The cost of these features is rolled into the one_price_for_all that
Microsoft uses. For example, when General Motors manager of IT calls Bill
personally and says get over here we have a list of features we want and are
willing to defray the costs, then you'll see these features being SLIP
STREAMED into the Office Package. When I once helped develop a transaction
processing system, each customer's special got rolled into the general
package as an option. This is an old and proven method for adding
functionality into software. The companies paying for these features don't
mind since they know its going to be maintained and the larger number of
users means the thing gets debugged.

Welcome to the world of Enterprise Software Development, morphing its way
down to the consumers!



> ***Isn't it better Chip-ah-roo, to have a feature available and not need
it
> then to need it an not have it?



> > ***Answer
> > why tables are always on GEOS' "wish-list".***

> > Because, Bobo, some people want them. However, 'most' people don't use
> them.

> >***

> Why pay for something not used? In order to have tables that I don't use I
> would need new software, which requires new hardware to run. I figure to
have
> stuff I don't use would cost me about $500 minimum (on sales with
rebates). No
> thanks.

> Chip Blank
> GUI
> GeoGrafix

> The GEOS Users International website is at:
> http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Tom Accuost » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:39:53



| Let me see. You favor using command line when the easier, more
| accurate, GUI alternative will accomplish the same thing. I say that
| because there are some instances where you can use command line
| easier than finding a GUI method at your finger tips. For example, I
| like to occaionaly use TRACERT, NET, PING, et al. But I would not
| hesitate to use Explorer for manipulating files.
|
| In Windows XP, there is a download called PowerToysXP and one of the
| goodies is a right click method used in Explorer where you can popup
| a DOS window at a given directory. I have it there for the rare times
| I need it.

I used to use that "DOS here" option, and for a while I thought it was
the bee's knees. But I have noticed that I have less and less use for
that feature, and frankly, after switchintg to XP last year, I don't
remember if I've used anything more than an occassional xcopy with a
switch to move files from one drive to another (so I didn't have to keep
hitting OK to copy read-only files).

OTOH, there are a few machines out in the shop that still use DOS, so I
haven't lost the memory of those commands completely <g>.

Tom

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:03:42


A better way is to do backups. <g>

Regards your "hanging judge" mentality vis--vis Windows, am I glad you're
not my doctor. Every ailment would result in another organ being
obliterated. LOL!


> when i have ot repair the software on a windows pc, which often means
> deleting and reinstalling windows, i use  "deltree" and "attrib" to
> delectively delete all files and folder EXCEPT FOR DOCUMENT
> FOLDERS/files whic 99% fo the time people have not backed up.

> this way i get a clean windows installation without having to format the
> hard dive, preserving someone's precious documents without having ot
> reisntall a new windows on top of an old bad windows

> it is too  difficult to do this inside of windows, especially one that
> is not running properly..


> > Hans, would you go out
> > of your way to do something via command line if you could do it using a
GUI
> > interface?

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:12:54


In most businesses that maintain parity with technology around them, DOS =
Old Applications that have not yet been replaced with a Windows alternative,
because the person or persons who designed, or installed the application are
no longer around, therefore, it sits there like a pot hole that nobody wants
to resurface until a new DP manager rides into town on his/her horse and
demands a change to the way things are being done. Translation: A newer,
bigger budget has been approved!




> | Let me see. You favor using command line when the easier, more
> | accurate, GUI alternative will accomplish the same thing. I say that
> | because there are some instances where you can use command line
> | easier than finding a GUI method at your finger tips. For example, I
> | like to occaionaly use TRACERT, NET, PING, et al. But I would not
> | hesitate to use Explorer for manipulating files.
> |
> | In Windows XP, there is a download called PowerToysXP and one of the
> | goodies is a right click method used in Explorer where you can popup
> | a DOS window at a given directory. I have it there for the rare times
> | I need it.

> I used to use that "DOS here" option, and for a while I thought it was
> the bee's knees. But I have noticed that I have less and less use for
> that feature, and frankly, after switchintg to XP last year, I don't
> remember if I've used anything more than an occassional xcopy with a
> switch to move files from one drive to another (so I didn't have to keep
> hitting OK to copy read-only files).

> OTOH, there are a few machines out in the shop that still use DOS, so I
> haven't lost the memory of those commands completely <g>.

> Tom

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Ray Kopczyns » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:54:31


<< You favor using command line when the easier, more accurate, GUI alternative
will accomplish the same thing. I say that because there are some instances
where you can use command line easier than finding a GUI method at your finger
tips. For example, I like to occaionaly use TRACERT, NET, PING, et al. But I
would not hesitate to use Explorer for manipulating files...(and) a right click
method used in Explorer where you can popup a DOS window at a given directory
.>>

Nice that you did a "CYA" with the above statement...  :-)  

It are just those "instance" that makes it worthwhile to know/understand/use
DOS commands -- or the "command line" if your language predeliction doesn't
allow you to say/use DOS anymore...

Find/learn/use the tool that does the job for -- as you see your needs.  That's
it in a nutshell. I had XP on my machine -- tried it for a few days -- removed
it.  Saw no inherent advantage or improvements for the type of computing I do.

Ray

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Tom Accuost » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 13:24:39


<changed post order>



||| Let me see. You favor using command line when the easier, more
||| accurate, GUI alternative will accomplish the same thing. I say that
||| because there are some instances where you can use command line
||| easier than finding a GUI method at your finger tips. For example, I
||| like to occaionaly use TRACERT, NET, PING, et al. But I would not
||| hesitate to use Explorer for manipulating files.
|||
||| In Windows XP, there is a download called PowerToysXP and one of the
||| goodies is a right click method used in Explorer where you can popup
||| a DOS window at a given directory. I have it there for the rare
times
||| I need it.
||
|| I used to use that "DOS here" option, and for a while I thought it
was
|| the bee's knees. But I have noticed that I have less and less use for
|| that feature, and frankly, after switchintg to XP last year, I don't
|| remember if I've used anything more than an occassional xcopy with a
|| switch to move files from one drive to another (so I didn't have to
|| keep hitting OK to copy read-only files).
||
|| OTOH, there are a few machines out in the shop that still use DOS, so
I
|| haven't lost the memory of those commands completely <g>.
||
|| Tom


| In most businesses that maintain parity with technology around them,
| DOS = Old Applications that have not yet been replaced with a Windows
| alternative, because the person or persons who designed, or installed
| the application are no longer around, therefore, it sits there like a
| pot hole that nobody wants to resurface until a new DP manager rides
| into town on his/her horse and demands a change to the way things are
| being done. Translation: A newer, bigger budget has been approved!
|

This is OT for a GEOS group, so I'm just adding this for general
interest, and as a change from some of the general bickering <g>:

In manufacturing, there are a lot of computer applications that simply
haven't caught up with the 1990's yet (let alone the 2000's). Quite a
few machine controls are written in old languages, and interface with
the rest of the machine in old ways. Part of the reason for this is cost
and potential liablilty: WHen you're milling a $5,000 peice of titanium
casting with a $500 tool, you don't want to have *any* freezes, hangs or
other assorted "brain farts". These kinds of mistakes can cost many
thousands of dollars, and possibly injury to the rest of the machine or
an operator. I've personally seen bad OS EPROM chips cause completely
random "crashes" - and I mean that in a literal sense. On the small
equipmenmt that we use a head crash can cost upwards of $4,000 to repair
the spindle. I can't imagine what would happen on a machine large enough
to machine jet engine parts. The over-riding philosophy is "if it an't
broke, then don't fix it" - especially if the fix could break something
even bigger.

The same philosophy applies to the CAD-CAM software as well
(Computer-Aided Drafting & Computer Assisted Machining). These are
programs that are used to draw 3D representations of the intricate
components of engines, medical instruments, and other electromechanical
controls. Part of the problem is that many of the newer programs ahve a
difficult time reading each other's formats. If a CAM program is used to
create a machining program for use on a machine, it's important that it
reads the numbers correctly. Most of the "blueprints" are so complex
that it would be a nightmare to have to re-create them; but sometimes it
happens that a curved line is read incorrectly and a milling cutter
plunges into the side of a part instead of continuing a contour. As the
DOS programs are converted into Window-y programs, though, these kinds
of mistakes become more frequent, so many  companies have simply slapped
a Win compliant UI on top of the DOS functions and called it "new and
improved" and "user friendly".

As it happens, for a while I was using Edit+ to generate some of the
simpler code used for the machines themselves - it's reletively simple
and is all ASCII text.

Tom

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by C BLANK » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:35:07



Date: Mon, Jun 30, 2003 11:33 EDT

The cost of these features is rolled into the one_price_for_all that
Microsoft uses.***

Ah...so I could pay for even more features I don't need or use. What I use GEOS
provides quite nicely. I paid extra for many Windows apps in the past for all
those extra bells and whistles beyond GEOS. I seldom use them, and, in fact,
Paint Shop Pro provides most of my extra need (at a very low price) followed by
a rare use for convenience from Corel.

Your logic is like the old housewife cliche when asked by her husband why she
spent $500 on items she doesn't need or use...she replies "Well, it was on
sale.".

Chip Blank
GUI
GeoGrafix

The GEOS Users International website is at:
http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:59:09


that is like telling aptient to quit smoking, and then getting them to
actually do it.

> A better way is to do backups. <g>

> Regards your "hanging judge" mentality vis--vis Windows, am I glad you're
> not my doctor. Every ailment would result in another organ being
> obliterated. LOL!