Living in the past

Living in the past

Post by Holger La » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:07:15




>> >If you love GEOS, then keep using it on appropriate systems [...]

>OLD SYSTEMS WHERE GEOS HAS NO COMPETITION

That's what I do where I can (mainly at home).

Quote:

>> >Grow Up and stop clutching to obsolete software.

>ON SYSTEMS WHERE GEOS IS NOT THE RIGHT FIT

That's what I have to do at work (sometimes doing things GEOS could
not do anyway, but often doing things I know GEOS can do better)

As you can see, I use computers in different ways and do not have a
problem with it.

But I still don't know what you are on about ranting and raving.
What's your problem?

Holger

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Marco106 » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:34:54


(Or one of the endless copies from Pat or Bob, I loose track.)

Quote:>The price of
>> the OS is included in the total package price. Period.

My understanding of the packaged OS price, (the main anti trust arguement) was,
Microsoft charged OEM's for each computer they sold, with or without Windows.
Ergo, no refund.

Marc

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:51:06


Hyubso,

Use your head. Who is going to spends Millions to do this???????

You are assuming that GEOS is so special that it is the ONLY TRUE way to do
computing. And NOTHING is a substitute for GEOS, GEOS, Lord All Mighty,
GEOS.

In fact, all of the technology in GEOS is 15 yers old now. in that time, the
same Universities that graduated the brains that thought up GEOS have
generated a whole new army of technologists who have invented better
software techniques.

Botom Line, there is a
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000300055008000004090
000000022040601000444507835 % chance that what you proposed will happen.


> you can take the apple approach on a very low cost scale and design the
> hardware to fit the software.

> myturn tried this approach, the correct approach,  but ended up putting
> too much hardware in the box adn the global pc was underpriced by all
> those now **hard to find***  $400, 3 year online service rebate contracts.

> maybe myturn was a bit too early to market with this idea.. but what
> about doing it today by installing and running geos on a 128mbyte
> thumbdrive based keyboard computer with no floppy/no hard drive/no cdrom
> drive, and teh thumbdrive installs into one of several usb ports built
> into the simple , ultra low cost keyboard computer?

> on a 128MB thumbdrive, dos/geos programs and data is easily removed from
> the  keyboard pc, data files saved in windows compatible formats are
> easily readable by windows pcs, the thumbdrive might even be bootable
> from USB on a windows computer so one could still  get basic boot to
> dos/geos operation on just about any usb bootable pc in the world by
> carrying their thumbdrive instead of a laptop.

> with geos you are not starting from scratch..  GEOS's excellent
> structural design is already in place.. in fact microsoft has been
> copying it for years adn is still very slowly integrating the apps into
> the operating system, something geos is so much farther along with.

> Starting from scratch means starting with a blank piece of paper, making
> design mistakes along the way, risking failure at every step,  and after
>   doing all that, the end goal would STILL be to build  a 32 bit GEOS
> rather than any other 32 bit OS product out there.  GEOS is the ultimate
> software design goal, no matter what you call it, and geos already
> exists, so why start from scratch??  why  not improve on the best
> software design that already exists???

> There is nothing like GEOS for programming efficiency.  GIve geos more
> development and build in enough hardware support  on an integrated
> hardware/software product that just gets the job done ("good enough for
> who its for" is my motto)..(ie: ethernet, tcp/ip, 6 USB 2 ports, no
> modem,no hard drive, no cdrom, no floppy, no serial/no parallel ports)
> and sell it on the absolutely lowest hardware cost  device available.

> nothing ridiculous about that....


> > Its too late for a GEOS32 as the Windows (no pun intended) of
opportunity
> > has closed long ago. In fact, a 32 bit GEOS would be the simple part.
What
> > about the drivers and compatibility testing as users would have to run
their
> > existing applications. There is not enough traction to demand that
everyone
> > start from scratch. That is why the whole thing is ridiculous.



> >>Well, you have your chance now........If there will be a GEOS32, where

> > will

> >>you be?
> >>You can make a promise and then we'll see........

> >>Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

> >>BR,
> >>Hans





> >>>>Just asking you to remove yourselves and all that negativity . It's

> >>so

> >>>>predictable and boring by now.

> >>>I beg to disagree. Its boring to allow this charade to continue,
without
> >>>addressing the cold, hard facts. GEOS will never mature as an OS
because

> >>its

> >>>so far behind the curve. It would take capital beyond the ability of
BBX

> >>to

> >>>make it happen. IBM spent 100s of millions of dollars on OS/2 and
failed

> >>to

> >>>win the desktop. They have since embraced Linux for servers and Windows

> >>XP

> >>>for desktops! Very few users want to face facts, they want to pretend

> >>a

> >>>miracle will occur. A few users think that a duplicate of the Linux
> >>>initiative will happen to GEOS. They do not realize that the community

> >>that

> >>>did Linux was Unix centric. They see GEOS as a little DOS GUI that runs

> >>on a

> >>>single chip set. As for GEOS-SC, its not even desktop oriented, because

> >>the

> >>>developers built it from the ground up as a cross-platform OS for
> >>>Smartphones. BBX_John has made it clear. BBX is not going to do
anything
> >>>major to the current GEOS and they are working on a new GEOS, but no
> >>>details, its not around the corner, its just an amorphous cloud and an
> >>>enigma to some (me).

> >>>As a GEOS enthusiast, you can look forward to no improvements in the

> > GEOS

> >>>kernel or core applications, that make up the ensemble suite. If that

> >>is all

> >>>you want out of your computing experience, then you will be happy. But

> >>if

> >>>you want more, look elsewhere!

> >>>>It's not necessary to be an extremist in order to like GEOS.  I use

> >>it

> >>>>because it fills most of my needs together with Dos and Win 3.11, is
> >>>>easy to use and doesn't require much hardware. Suits a 486/66 really
> >>>>well. Why enter that costly upgrade spiral when there's no real need
> >>>>for it.

> >>>Like I said, if that's all you want out of your software then you have

> >>no

> >>>beef with me. My only dispute concerns users who think GEOS is going to
> >>>advance beyond its current 16-bit implementation. Why would you want

> > that?

> >>>For one, your Internet apps would run better, unless you think its just

> >>fine

> >>>the way it is NOW. So you are a happy GEOS camper and enjoy life. Don't
> >>>forget to put me in your kill list, like many of the other Europeans
who
> >>>despise what I say!

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:35:56


GEOS will only see a modern PC like it was a 386 PC. Yet, many of the
hardware advances in new PCs are not visible to GEOS or its underlying DOS.
A simple analogy might apply here, and I fully acknowledge that analogies
only serve a special purpose of getting a point across. But I offer it,
FWIW.

You are carried into a actual room and set upright, and you have GEOS VR
Goggles on that give you a virtual reality of the your space. Its a
beautiful little ranch house with 2 bedrooms and a modest little living
room, one and a half baths, a mud room and a tiny sized kitchen with one
small window. It has a one car garage and a small backyard with a picket
fence. You're think its a nice little starter house, but wish it was larger
and had a nicer outdoor views.

I ask you to take your GEOS VR Goggles off and see where you really are. You
almost faint. You are in a gorgeous mansion on 30 acres of coastal land with
ocean views on one side, with a beautiful tree lined country setting on the
other, and a garden that rivals the* gardens of Babylon. You have
every amenity at your finger tips, if you elect to use them, they are there.
In fact, being humble, you say this is too much for me. But after living
there a month, you couldn't imagine going back.

In fact, GEOS and DOS lack the ability to discover the accelerators on new
PCs. They will never be able to take advantage of the capabilities of many
video cards, and its not just 3D. It has to do with the Windows drivers that
can interface with the hardware and make 2D scrolling work and display
speeds vastly more efficiently. Now cookie cutter this template for
performance, where the hardware and software mate with each other to give a
faster and more preferment computing experience, and duplicate it all over
the hardware space in many ways. New CPU instructions, Memory Accelerators,
Disk Accelerators, et al.

Bottom Line:

I know you are thinking that GEOS is smaller (less code) and therefore
faster than Windows, therefore it must run circles around Windows on a
"FASTER THEN 486". However, you are basing this on the bad assumption that
Windows will run on the new PCs, like it did on a 486. In reality, you are
not accounting for Windows using the new hardware to its advantage and GEOS
not being able to use it.

In summary, not only is GEOS limited, performance wise, compared to Windows
on a new PC, it simply is unable to see the majority of all the hardware
accelerators sitting there to be taken advantage of by an OS that is ready!



Quote:> ***ANSWER:

> I have no idea what makes you tick. If you love GEOS, then keep using it
on
> appropriate systems, like 396s and 486s. I don't know why you would ever
> load it on a contemporary system when it hasn't a clue about any hardware
> that was built later then when Geoworks stopped using it, other than a
> paltry number of device drivers since ND took over.
> ***

> You put GEOS on a faster than 486 system for more operational speed of the
> applications. Simple concept, eh?

> Chip Blank
> GUI
> GeoGrafix

> The GEOS Users International website is at:
> http://www.veryComputer.com/

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Pat » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:37:36


Fine. So why are you jumping me in a an alley? ;-)



> >> >If you love GEOS, then keep using it on appropriate systems [...]

> >OLD SYSTEMS WHERE GEOS HAS NO COMPETITION

> That's what I do where I can (mainly at home).

> >> >Grow Up and stop clutching to obsolete software.

> >ON SYSTEMS WHERE GEOS IS NOT THE RIGHT FIT

> That's what I have to do at work (sometimes doing things GEOS could
> not do anyway, but often doing things I know GEOS can do better)

> As you can see, I use computers in different ways and do not have a
> problem with it.

> But I still don't know what you are on about ranting and raving.
> What's your problem?

> Holger

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Holger La » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:51:23



>Fine. So why are you jumping me in a an alley? ;-)

Do we have a communication problem? To me it seems to be the other way
round: You are jumping at everyone who still enjoys using GEOS and who
still maintains a hope for possible improvements in the future.

Holger

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 02:23:54


I was actually experiencing Windows WYSIWYS and WYGIWYG today! It was one
document on the screen and three printouts on the printer......but if I lay
the three ones on top of each other on a lightboard, I would see the same
document as on the screen. I did also solve the problem, a fruit Visual Basic
programming Q&D.

BR,
Hans


> Windows = An evolving poem.

> GEOS = An unfinished short story.

> Great, COGM has become Sesame Street.



> > Windows = WYSIWYS and WYGIWYG


> > > GEOS = WYSIWYG   ;-)

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 02:17:09


I was not defending GEOS as you so blindly imply. And this is evident when
you read my posting. I was just trying to be funny at your expense in the
same way as you are, with others.

BR,
Hans


> Hans and Hyubso,

> So out of fuel when it comes to logically defending their GEOS that th
have
> to resort to inane comments and picking lint out of messages with typos.
> ROTFL!



> > Well I love to use my 736 with Windows.....

> > Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

> > Br,
> > Hans




> > > > So? I am still waiting? What do you advise me to do?

> > > ANSWER:

> > > I have no idea what makes you tick. If you love GEOS, then keep using
> > it on
> > > appropriate systems, like 396s and 486s. I don't know why you would
ever
> > > load it on a contemporary system when it hasn't a clue about any
> hardware
> > > that was built later then when Geoworks stopped using it, other than
a
> > > paltry number of device drivers since ND took over.

> > > Bottom Line: Grow Up and stop clutching to obsolete software. Do I
have
> > to
> > > tell you the story of the monkey and the ball?

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Tom Accuost » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 03:27:58



| GEOS will only see a modern PC like it was a 386 PC. Yet, many of the
| hardware advances in new PCs are not visible to GEOS or its
| underlying DOS. A simple analogy might apply here, and I fully
| acknowledge that analogies only serve a special purpose of getting a
| point across. But I offer it, FWIW.
|

<snip analogy>

Pat, that's a really good analogy. But let me take it a step further:
Some people might not want the care and maintenance that comes with a
bigger house. More house means more upgrading, painting and decorating,
and furniture to buy. In fact, many people with large homes make a point
of vacationing in small cabins that are much like the first house you
described. They might not want to live there full time, but they like to
visit, probably because they gain perspective from the variation. And
keep in mind that some people who can afford to live in a large house
*choose* to remain in something smaller and simpler because it meets
their needs.

Of course, some people choose to live in cardboard boxes, too. We call
them "crazy". <weg>

Just wanted to help you gain some perspective!

Tom

--
 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GSS/O d-(+) s: a+ C++ L> W++ N++ w+(--) O?>+ M PS (++)
PE (+++) Y+(-) PGP X+ t+ 5-(+) X R-
tv---(-) b++(+++) DI++++ D++ e++>+++ h---->+ r++++>* y++++**
   ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Bob » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:42:56


But not too fast as it KR's! :) The benefit of running a GEOS app on a
"faster", (and that being a relative term), is not very beneficial. Use a
386/33Mhz, VS a P133 for example. Very little speed gain in GEOS. Now what I
found is of great benefit would be using a 12+ MB Diskcache. I dare say GEOS
would run as good or better on the 386/33 using a 12+ MB Diskcache, then on
the P133 w/out caching. All of this is pointless of course, as neither PC
would be bothered with today by 99.999999987654329% of PC users.



Quote:> ***ANSWER:

> I have no idea what makes you tick. If you love GEOS, then keep using it
on
> appropriate systems, like 396s and 486s. I don't know why you would ever
> load it on a contemporary system when it hasn't a clue about any hardware
> that was built later then when Geoworks stopped using it, other than a
> paltry number of device drivers since ND took over.
> ***

> You put GEOS on a faster than 486 system for more operational speed of the
> applications. Simple concept, eh?

> Chip Blank
> GUI
> GeoGrafix

> The GEOS Users International website is at:
> http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Bob » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:46:36


I've no problem with your comment Chip, although I give more credit to
consumers then you do, and think they "know" the price includes the OS, they
just don't know how much it impacts the bottom price. But to keep stating as
Hyubso does that the OS is free is simply stupid. Yet he refuses to admit he
is 100% wrong, and simply keeps evading the question I ask.



Quote:

> Bob, the average computer purchaser actually does look at the preinstalled
> software as free...even though it is not. Perception is what is in play.
> Perception is why people may silly decisions in many areas all too often.

> Chip Blank
> GUI
> GeoGrafix

> The GEOS Users International website is at:
> http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Bob » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:48:18


No not at all. You can order a PC sans OS for less then the same PC with OS.
The OS is NOT free. Period. You may try to in some way "think" it so, but it
ain't. The price one pays for an OEM PC with a pre-installed OS contains
built into that very price, the price of the OS.



Quote:> ***if you can't get a refund for something that is newly purchsaed adn
> unused, you obviously never paid for it.***

> He has a point. You can look at the software, then, as a freebie premium
to
> sell the hardware better. Kind of like getting a toaster for opening a
bank
> account. You can't give the toaster back to the bank for a refund either.

> Chip Blank
> GUI
> GeoGrafix

> The GEOS Users International website is at:
> http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by Hans Lindgre » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:57:18


Yep, correct! I forgot that one. But prior to the R380, Ericsson had a device
that were actually two devices connected via  a serial cable. This "device"
was deployed with WinCe and marketed as a competitior to Nokia 9000. I remember
a review in a swedish computer magazine, all the devices had their pros and
cons, but the Ericsson device was not rated high. The winner of that test
was Nokia 9000. This is not just a coincidence. I heard from many sources
that the Nokia people were "hungry" looking at everything, turning every
stone to fine interesting technologies, and having a very humble attitude,
but the Ericsson people were considering themselves as one of the champions
in cellular phones, and did not have the same drive as Nokia people. I think
this explains the current situation very well, Ericsson as a company on decline
and Nokia are the survivors of the baisse......

BR,
Hans


> Ericsson also had one of the first Symbian-based phone (R380 ?). Shortly
> after that they searched for money, which ended up in the merge with
> Sony. No doubt that Microsoft was (at least) contacted or interested at
> some point (which would have also meant some technology
> transfers/cooperation).

> Philippe.


> > Nah.....that is just baloney......Nokia does not use any thing Microsoft
> > and does not taking order from Bill G. They work hard to keep away from
them,
> > and Microsofts cooperation with Ericsson has been a real failure. No
wonder
> > about that.
> > Ericsson is a company in crisis and Nokia is doing pretty well, away
from
> > Microsoft. Breadbox and Nokia is doing well, together. Well, EPOC was
the
> > initial name of Symbian and Bill Gates did not have anything to do with
the
> > creation of it. Have you heard anything of the computerized refrigirator
> > from Electrolux/White/Microsoft......probably just another failure..........

> > BR,
> > Hans


> > > Symbian did not exist before that visit, but psion did, as far as
i
> > > recall...

> > > symbian started in june 1998, so bill gates could not join symbian
if
> > it
> > > did not exist yet.

> > > http://www.symbian.com/about/about.html

> > > while the cream pie was placed against Bills face on feb 4, 1998,
5
> > > months before symbians birth..

> > > http://www.bitstorm.org/gates/

> > > Bill simply went ot nokia to scare the living daylights out of them,
so
> > > they would drop GEOS ( a definite cell phone os threat, and potentially
> > > a desktop os threat, after further okia development)  and lose time
> > > regrouping while he scrambled for the next few years to get his windows
> > > CE on track.

> > > but you are right about cost sharing with other maufacturers.. it
is the
> > > other manufactureres, motorola, ericsson, etc who for some reason
were
> > > very reluctant to use geos, thus leaving nokia alone in a very lonely
> > > geos camp, while the rest of the crowd leaned toward psion which led
to
> > > the formation of symbian..



> > > >>we would probably  be there now had nokia not dumped geos after
Bill
> > G's
> > > >>famous cream pie in the face european "vacation"

> > > > Well, I don't think this is correct. Nokia dumped GEOS because it
was
> > real
> > > > mode. They migrated to Symbian because it was 32-bit and an OS,
just
> > as GEOS,
> > > > made for CCD:s. Bill G did not have anything to do with this, as
he
> > was trying
> > > > to join the Symbian project, but the Symbian project did not want
Microsoft
> > > > to join. If Nokia have continued the GEOS road they would have to
take
> > all
> > > > of the development by themselves. By joining Symbian Noika could
share
> > the
> > > > develpoment costs with others, and create common standards. I think
> > that
> > > > is why they dumped GEOS

> > > > BR,
> > > > Hans

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:19:26


Bob, I told you, IN ONE WORD LIKE YOU REQUESTED, to go to best buy and
buy one pc off the self with no os and another with the os and tell me
the price difference.

cmon bob, what's holding  you up??

ordering a pc  adn buying a pc off the shelf is not the same thing..

  when you order a pc without an OS, you have to wait for it to be built
and delivered... an ****added cost***** in wasted time for peole who nee
a computer right now..  people should be able to buy BLANK hard drive
PCs at a store and be able to carry them home right then.  they can buy
cheap linux pcs at stores like fry's, which msft dislikes for some odd
reason

the fact is,

windows is   **** free****  to retail customers on oem pcs,

while..

windows is a ****tax****   to oem manufacturers..

while

windows is a   *highly profitable, resold over and over and over to the
same people****  product for microsoft

Bob, you have heard of the windows tax, have you not???

Taht is how the computer os market is still structured, even after the
famous governemtn antiturst case which in reality microsoft won, even if
it lost on paper.


> No not at all. You can order a PC sans OS for less then the same PC with OS.
> The OS is NOT free. Period. You may try to in some way "think" it so, but it
> ain't. The price one pays for an OEM PC with a pre-installed OS contains
> built into that very price, the price of the OS.



>>***if you can't get a refund for something that is newly purchsaed adn
>>unused, you obviously never paid for it.***

>>He has a point. You can look at the software, then, as a freebie premium

> to

>>sell the hardware better. Kind of like getting a toaster for opening a

> bank

>>account. You can't give the toaster back to the bank for a refund either.

>>Chip Blank
>>GUI
>>GeoGrafix

>>The GEOS Users International website is at:
>>http://hometown.aol.com/GUIUSA/GUI_USA.html

 
 
 

Living in the past

Post by hyubs » Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:21:30


now if only people could do all this with geos...

there is a value ot building a LARGE USER BASE and a large market for
software...



>>99% of people do NOT buy windows.. it is included "free" with the computer.

> or borrows it from the next door neighbor, or downloads it from internet,
> and the complains of the lousy support.........ROTFL

> BR,