Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Steve Ma » Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:26:44



Quote:

>one place that I can't pin a menu, and I *really* want to, is in GeoDraw!

>File>Import Graphic

>The system beleives that I will only want to import one graphic!
>That is usually not true, I really want to import several, either multi
>select or one right after another.

>There are other places as well, and for some of them, I can see that it
>would not make sense to be able to pin, system messages is one glaring
>example,
>but why make the assumption that a user will *never* want to pin a system
>message???

>If a user looks long enuff, he'd see an inconsistency that is baffling.
>Why can't I pin this? The programmers might never think of a reason to pin
>the darn thing, but you can bet a *user* will.

>OK?

Hi, Mike!

The File menu in GeoDraw is pinnable.
The command "Import Graphics" does not
open a menu, it opens a dialog box.
I assume what you want is for the Import Graphic
dialog box to not close after an import.
That's a reasonable request, but it has nothing to
do with pinning menus.
The reason it closes is because in usability testing,
users were confused when it did not close. If the
imported graphic was smaller than the dialog box,
you could not seel that an import had taken place,
for example. If you imported several graphics one
after the other, they would be "stacked" in the center
of the document window. By closing the dialog box,
the software gives the user an unspoken direction
or suggestion to do something with the imported
graphic before importing another.
After a successful import, what would you have the
file selector display? Should the previously imported
file remain selected so you can import it again?
Should the Import button become unavailable until
you select a different file? These and other questions
are also reasons why the dialog box closes after
an import.

Steve

-----
"There are only two ways to live your life.
One is as though nothing is a miracle.
The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
-- Albert Einstein
-----

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Bob » Tue, 03 Oct 2000 04:00:00


>Subject: Re: Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS


Now that makes perfect sense. As it is a dialog box not a menu, one could
understand how one could become "confused" as to why after the event took
place, the dialog box remains open.

Quote:>The File menu in GeoDraw is pinnable.
>The command "Import Graphics" does not
>open a menu, it opens a dialog box.
>I assume what you want is for the Import Graphic
>dialog box to not close after an import.
>That's a reasonable request, but it has nothing to
>do with pinning menus.
>The reason it closes is because in usability testing,
>users were confused when it did not close. If the
>imported graphic was smaller than the dialog box,
>you could not seel that an import had taken place,
>for example. If you imported several graphics one
>after the other, they would be "stacked" in the center
>of the document window. By closing the dialog box,
>the software gives the user an unspoken direction
>or suggestion to do something with the imported
>graphic before importing another.
>After a successful import, what would you have the
>file selector display? Should the previously imported
>file remain selected so you can import it again?
>Should the Import button become unavailable until
>you select a different file? These and other questions
>are also reasons why the dialog box closes after
>an import.

>Steve

Bob B.
Please Reply to the Newsgroup.
People are more important then their opinions.

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by 45 » Tue, 03 Oct 2000 04:00:00


Hmmm, you are correct, as usual, the import is a dialog box, not a menu.

However, the concept is exactly the same. There are many places that I'd like
to "pin" something, even if it is not a "menu".

As for the idea that it may confuse new users, yeah I geuss I can live with new
users not being able to figure out sumpin like that.

I am not a new user, I am an advanced user, working at level 4, not level 1.

Wasn't that the idea of having levels? That we could turn off cascading
features to accomodate newer users?

My gripe is simple, that the pinnable "feature" is not consistent throughout
the system, only some things can be pinned.

Yes, some things don't make sense to have pinned, not to you, not to me, and
obviously not to the programmers.

My attitude is, "So what???".  If it appears on my screen I should be able to
stick a pin in it! Even if it makes no sense to anyone but me.

I've mentioned all this before, it shouldn't be any great revelation that I
feel this way.

:-)

45


> >one place that I can't pin a menu, and I *really* want to, is in GeoDraw!

> >File>Import Graphic

> >The system beleives that I will only want to import one graphic!
> >That is usually not true, I really want to import several, either multi
> >select or one right after another.

> >There are other places as well, and for some of them, I can see that it
> >would not make sense to be able to pin, system messages is one glaring
> >example,
> >but why make the assumption that a user will *never* want to pin a system
> >message???

> >If a user looks long enuff, he'd see an inconsistency that is baffling.
> >Why can't I pin this? The programmers might never think of a reason to pin
> >the darn thing, but you can bet a *user* will.

> >OK?

> Hi, Mike!

> The File menu in GeoDraw is pinnable.
> The command "Import Graphics" does not
> open a menu, it opens a dialog box.
> I assume what you want is for the Import Graphic
> dialog box to not close after an import.
> That's a reasonable request, but it has nothing to
> do with pinning menus.
> The reason it closes is because in usability testing,
> users were confused when it did not close. If the
> imported graphic was smaller than the dialog box,
> you could not seel that an import had taken place,
> for example. If you imported several graphics one
> after the other, they would be "stacked" in the center
> of the document window. By closing the dialog box,
> the software gives the user an unspoken direction
> or suggestion to do something with the imported
> graphic before importing another.
> After a successful import, what would you have the
> file selector display? Should the previously imported
> file remain selected so you can import it again?
> Should the Import button become unavailable until
> you select a different file? These and other questions
> are also reasons why the dialog box closes after
> an import.

> Steve

> -----
> "There are only two ways to live your life.
> One is as though nothing is a miracle.
> The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
> -- Albert Einstein
> -----

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by 45 » Tue, 03 Oct 2000 04:00:00


Hmm,  don't understand why it would confuse anyone, if the user didn't push
the pin, it would go away, exactly the behavior one expects of it, (in
Windows), I'm not using Windows, I am using GEOS, and I expect more from it.

What is cool, is that if ya pin the sucker it *doesn't* go away! Very Geos,
and not Windows at all.

anyways, as I said in the other post, this is no great revelation, I have
been saying this regularly for years now.

:-)
45


> >Subject: Re: Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

> Now that makes perfect sense. As it is a dialog box not a menu, one could
> understand how one could become "confused" as to why after the event took
> place, the dialog box remains open.

> >The File menu in GeoDraw is pinnable.
> >The command "Import Graphics" does not
> >open a menu, it opens a dialog box.

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Gene Anderso » Wed, 04 Oct 2000 04:00:00



> Hmm,  don't understand why it would confuse anyone, if the user didn't push
> the pin, it would go away, exactly the behavior one expects of it, (in
> Windows), I'm not using Windows, I am using GEOS, and I expect more from it.

> What is cool, is that if ya pin the sucker it *doesn't* go away! Very Geos,
> and not Windows at all.

> anyways, as I said in the other post, this is no great revelation, I have
> been saying this regularly for years now.

You want something like what I did for the Open dialog in Font Viewer?
It would probably have to be done on a case-by-case basis, because there
are times a dialog shouldn't be pinnable (e.g., a Yes/No or OK/Cancel,
or other single action), but it would be handy to have available. And
certainly doable as a system feature that programmers could choose to
allow or not as needed.

Or are you looking for something more like a nailgun, where you can
fasten anything down to the screen? :-)

gene

--
Gene Anderson

http://www.designsinlight.com/

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Bob » Wed, 04 Oct 2000 04:00:00


>Subject: Re: Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

>Or are you looking for something more like a nailgun, where you can
>fasten anything down to the screen? :-)

>gene

LOL! Naw the glass would break ;) More like a customizable post-it note :)

Bob B.
Please Reply to the Newsgroup.
People are more important then their opinions.

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by 45 » Wed, 04 Oct 2000 04:00:00


Hi Gene,
First allow me to thank you for your serious consideration of this issue!

I kinda like the nailgun approach. I doubt that most people would use it for most
of the items that, like you mention, are one shot yes/no type of things.

As I mentioned, for those items, it doesn't make any sense to allow a user to pin,
"why in the world would they do that?".

My point is. . . Sure, me, you, Bob, Steve and Peter may never think of a good
reason to pin one of those! I'll bet a dollar to a stick of gum that someday some
user is gonna say, "Why can't I pin that? This would be so much easier if I could
just pin that!"
You mentioned that there are times when a dialog *should not* be pinnable. I agree
that at times it would make no *sense* to pin a dialog. But shouldn't the *user*
make that choice?

Thanks again!

BTW I never did get a chance to really look at your Font Viewer, but from my
recollection of the posts here, that sounded very close!!

45



> > Hmm,  don't understand why it would confuse anyone, if the user didn't push
> > the pin, it would go away, exactly the behavior one expects of it, (in
> > Windows), I'm not using Windows, I am using GEOS, and I expect more from it.

> > What is cool, is that if ya pin the sucker it *doesn't* go away! Very Geos,
> > and not Windows at all.

> > anyways, as I said in the other post, this is no great revelation, I have
> > been saying this regularly for years now.

> You want something like what I did for the Open dialog in Font Viewer?
> It would probably have to be done on a case-by-case basis, because there
> are times a dialog shouldn't be pinnable (e.g., a Yes/No or OK/Cancel,
> or other single action), but it would be handy to have available. And
> certainly doable as a system feature that programmers could choose to
> allow or not as needed.

> Or are you looking for something more like a nailgun, where you can
> fasten anything down to the screen? :-)

> gene

> --
> Gene Anderson

> http://www.designsinlight.com/

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Steve Ma » Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:26:34


Quote:>Hmmm, you are correct, as usual, the import is a dialog box, not a menu.

>However, the concept is exactly the same. There are many places that I'd like
>to "pin" something, even if it is not a "menu".

>As for the idea that it may confuse new users, yeah I geuss I can live with
>new
>users not being able to figure out sumpin like that.

>I am not a new user, I am an advanced user, working at level 4, not level 1.

>Wasn't that the idea of having levels? That we could turn off cascading
>features to accomodate newer users?

>My gripe is simple, that the pinnable "feature" is not consistent throughout
>the system, only some things can be pinned.

The pin feature is consistent throughout the software.
Pins appear only in menus, and never in context (right-click)
menus. Dialog boxes never have pins. Some dialog boxes
close immediately upon use, such as the Import dialog
box, or message dialogs that have only an OK button,
while other dialogs remain open until you close them
like the color selector or the fonts dialog. The consistency
that was aimed for here is that a dialog which makes
a change to a selected portion of a document usually
stays open until you intentionally close it. The dialogs
that close automatically upon use include notification
dialogs, and dialogs in which you choose an option that
is part of a series of actions, and dialogs that add a new
object to a document or open a new document. These
design decisions are implemented pretty consistently.

I'm not arguing against having the import graphic dialog
be able to remain open after an import. That might be
a nice feature addition. I'm only contesting your use of the
words "not consistent." The current design seems
very consistent to me.

Steve

-----
"There are only two ways to live your life.
One is as though nothing is a miracle.
The other is as though everything is a miracle. "
-- Albert Einstein
-----

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by 45 » Thu, 05 Oct 2000 04:00:00


SNIP

Quote:

> >My gripe is simple, that the pinnable "feature" is not consistent throughout
> >the system, only some things can be pinned.

> The pin feature is consistent throughout the software.
> Pins appear only in menus,

SNIP

Quote:> These
> design decisions are implemented pretty consistently.

> I'm not arguing against having the import graphic dialog
> be able to remain open after an import. That might be
> a nice feature addition. I'm only contesting your use of the
> words "not consistent." The current design seems
> very consistent to me.

> Steve

Ahh. In that context I agree. The use of the pinnable feature is consistent
through the system. It is available in menus only.

Of course, I am referring to the fact that the pinnable feature is not available
on every pop up screen element that I'd like to keep on screen even after I make
use of it.

In that context, the pinnable feature is not consistent through the system.

The difference of  these two view is that you are saying that the use of the
feature is consistent, and I am saying that the availability of the feature is
not.

Thanks Steve!

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Gene Anderso » Thu, 05 Oct 2000 04:00:00



> I kinda like the nailgun approach. I doubt that most people would use it for most
> of the items that, like you mention, are one shot yes/no type of things.

And the nailgun approach has some great potential for a system sound :-)

Quote:> My point is. . . Sure, me, you, Bob, Steve and Peter may never think of a good
> reason to pin one of those! I'll bet a dollar to a stick of gum that someday some
> user is gonna say, "Why can't I pin that? This would be so much easier if I could
> just pin that!"
> You mentioned that there are times when a dialog *should not* be pinnable. I agree
> that at times it would make no *sense* to pin a dialog. But shouldn't the *user*
> make that choice?

Perhaps, but (and this goes with your idea of making the feature scale
with the user level) in the cases where it is pinnable but probably
shouldn't be would likely be confusing to many users.

Quote:> BTW I never did get a chance to really look at your Font Viewer, but from my
> recollection of the posts here, that sounded very close!!

Check it out and let me know what you think, both of the way it works
and how it looks. It's just in the Open dialog, and appears in the right
hand side of the title bar.

gene

--
Gene Anderson

http://www.designsinlight.com/

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Tim Harv » Sat, 07 Oct 2000 04:00:00


While the subject of "pinning" things has come up, I submitted a feature
request a little while back that would include pinning, and I was interested
in what folks thought of it.

Currently, the NDO W95-like interface opens file window after file window as
you navigate around a disk.

What I suggest is that the current file window is the only one that remains
open, unless you specifically "pin" open window (like Gene's Font Viewer), in
which case a new "unpinned" file window is opened, leaving the old one there.
You could shut the pinned window down, of course, in the usual manner.

It would be handy if you needed to copy between directories, say, without
leaving a trial of intermediate directory windows behind.

Like the way W98 behaves, I guess, but with "pins".

Does this sound reasonable?

Tim

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Bob » Mon, 09 Oct 2000 04:00:00


>Subject: Re: Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

>Currently, the NDO W95-like interface opens file window after file window as
>you navigate around a disk.

Yup. Most annoying.

Quote:>What I suggest is that the current file window is the only one that remains
>open, unless you specifically "pin" open window (like Gene's Font Viewer), in

>which case a new "unpinned" file window is opened, leaving the old one there.
>You could shut the pinned window down, of course, in the usual manner.

Well, I had suggested you could have a view setting. Multipule changing
windows, or single window.

Also I find the lack of any navigation/function toolbar horrible.

Quote:>It would be handy if you needed to copy between directories, say, without
>leaving a trial of intermediate directory windows behind.

Well, it would be handy to just cut and paste also with either a sencondary
mouse click, or an icon on the (non-existant), toolbar :)

Would also be very nice to incorporate a "SendToX" secondary mouse click, as
well as a "SendTo-Compressed Folder", with ZipManager intergrated into the OS.

Many simple and quickly done tasks, are just to tedious and time consuming with
NewUI. That's why I stay with Motif.

Bob B.
Please Reply to the Newsgroup.
People are more important then their opinions.

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by hyubs » Mon, 09 Oct 2000 04:00:00



> >Subject: Re: Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

> >Currently, the NDO W95-like interface opens file window after file window as
> >you navigate around a disk.

> Yup. Most annoying.

that is one reason why the original geos motif interface was so
attractive..  full size windows by default rather than lots of tiny
ones.
 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by Marcus Groebe » Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:05:07



> > >Currently, the NDO W95-like interface opens file window after file window as
> > >you navigate around a disk.
> > Yup. Most annoying.
> that is one reason why the original geos motif interface was so
> attractive..  full size windows by default rather than lots of tiny
> ones.

Isn't this more a question of using GeoManager vs. the Desktop-style file manager?
As far as I know, you can still mix-and-match Motif/Win95-UI and
GeoManager/Desktop.

That said, a few enhancements like making windows remember their positions or
optionally opening a directory in the current window would be quite nice to have in
the desktop.

ciao marcus

 
 
 

Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Post by William Tanksl » Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:03:22



>While the subject of "pinning" things has come up, I submitted a feature
>request a little while back that would include pinning, and I was interested
>in what folks thought of it.

I like the idea of making pinning possible for any window, and this idea
makes it look even more attractive.

Quote:>Currently, the NDO W95-like interface opens file window after file window as
>you navigate around a disk.
>What I suggest is that the current file window is the only one that remains
>open, unless you specifically "pin" open window (like Gene's Font Viewer), in
>which case a new "unpinned" file window is opened, leaving the old one there.
>You could shut the pinned window down, of course, in the usual manner.

That's great!  This should also be an option, of course; I would use it
this way, but some people like having all of those windows by default and
will want to unpin when they need to travel without leaving a trail (so to
speak).

Quote:>Tim

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
 
 
 

1. Poll. Single Most Liked Feature of GEOS

Quick poll if you want to add your two cents. I am interested in your opinion
of the single "best" feature in NDO. NOT applications, features.

My vote: Pinnable Menus

Bob B.
Please Reply to the Newsgroup.
People are more important then their opinions.

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