Very Computer

Let me repeat AGAIN... the message that prompted you to Email me
the FIRST time was not written to you.  My snide remarks about
OS/2 and Windows had NOTHING to do with GEMulator.

In future, if you're going to take the time to reply to my messages,
please READ them first (as a courtesy).  

Quote:>Also, the pricing has been changed. Gemulator Lite has been dropped
>altogether, so the real Gemulator will cost $199 + TOS ROMs, so
>you're looking at under $300.

Could that be because the Gemulator Lite was going to be software
based and Atari said no?  Could this be part of the reason you
seem to bear such animosity towards Atari?

Quote:>Your pricing of ST equipment is way undervalued. You're telling me
>you can buy a used 520ST and color monitor for $150? Maybe so,
>but it's probably not in great shape. Let's talk about someone
>who runs a business and wants a computer. Let's say they want
>to run Pagestream or Calamus. There is no way that this person is
>going to go hunting around some flea market to buy a cheap 520ST.
>Then they have to upgrade the memory (Calamus and most other major
>apps won't run in 512K), upgrade the TOS, buy hard drive, etc.
>And most likely they'll buy from a dealer who isn't going to sell
>the machine for $50. Using your argument, I can go buy a used 386 for
>$500 instead of buying one new from a dealer for $1000.

Let's talk about people with businesses who want computers.  I know
many business owners with machines that AREN'T <gasp> MS-DOS boxes.
A good portion of these are Atari ST owners.

As for DTP programs, there are a variety of quality DTP programs
for the IBM/clone market.  Why haul your personal copy of Calamus
or Pagestream to work every day to use on a DOS box.  Why not
use a program that is optimised to work on the system you're using?

I purchased a 520ST for $50.00 in December.  It runs all my TOS
1.0 programs, does MIDI & has a Yamaha sound chip.  My 1040 STE
cost me $389 (new) about a year ago. If I were a business owner
who wanted to run Calamus or Pagestream, I could purchase a new
Mega 1 STE for $550 (from San Jose Computing).  I could pick up
a few extra SIMMs for $35 a piece, and buy a hard drive.  Sure,
it might be more expensive than your $199 + $60.00 for TOS, but
then I have an STE.  

I don't question the possiblity of emulating the 68000.  I question
the ability of a PC being able to achieve ST or better video speeds
with the painfully slow bus architechure of all but the most
expensive PCs.  Exactly how fast is your screen refresh rate?  And
how much data can you send to the card at one time?  

Quote:>As for speed, again, the product is not finished. My goal for the
>Toronto show was to demonstrate a near 100% compatible ST emulator, to
>disprove all the self-appointed 'experts" who kept claining that is was
>impossible to emulate the 68000 on a 386, and if it was, then it was
>impossible to emulate the ST hardware. Well I proved them wrong. Now I
>am going through and optimizing the code, writing everything in
>assembler, etc.  When Gemulator ships it will be a lot faster than what
>I demoed in Toronto. A 486/50 is nice but you don't need it.

Great!  You'll optimize the code so it runs faster, but you're limited
by the design of the machine you're running it on.  You can make a VW Bug
look like a Porshe, but no amount of "optimizing" will make it run like
one.  (I'm not talking about processor speed, I'm talking about video
speed).

Quote:>People have plenty of reasons for wanting to buy Gemulator. Just read
>the postings on comp.sys.atari.st. Some people are hundreds of miles
>away from an Atari dealer, some people have to use a PC at work and
>would prefer to use ST software on it, some are fed up with Atari's
>promises which never materialize - from the 1450XLD to the transputer
>to the "under $1000 TT" to the ST notebook and pen computers. Theere

The 1450XLD was a Warner decision and had nothing to do with the
Tramiels at all.  The ATW8000 transputer exists and is operation
in Europe and Canada.  The TT is pretty close to $1000 right now,
and the prices are dropping.  The ST Book was recently released
and is in production.  As for the STylus, it was stopped due to
lack of industry interest in pen computing on ANY platform
(they're nifty, but people don't seem to want to buy them).  You
appear to have a personal problem with Atari, and seem to want to
share it with everyone else.  

Quote:>are 400 PC manufacturers who make tens of millions of PCs, and they
>don't have to resort to vaporware and whining about the prices of RAM
>chips or whining about how the FCC won't approve them. And they
>advertise. I own 3 PCs. I know that 5 years from now they are not going
>to be obsolete.  Maybe a bit slow, but MS-DOS and Windows software will
>still be the major software then.
>- Darek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You exaggerate your statistics to suit your own purposes ("400
PC manufacturers who make tens of millions of PCs"... yeah sure,
total from 1980-1992, maybe.)

You claim that your 3 PCs won't be obsolete in 5 years?  Can I
borrow your rose coloured glasses?  I see reams of software
being produced for the 286 (the darling of 5 years ago).  Not.  
And Windows 2 runs like a slug on it.  A friend of mine has the
IBM clone I used 5 years ago, and it's not just "a bit slow", it's
downright painful to watch.  With the 586 chip looming on the
horizon, and RISC technology a real option, you have the balls to
say that your 3 machines won't be obsolete in 5 years?  And
"MS-DOS and Windows software will still be the major software
then"?  Yes, we know who writes your paycheck every week.

Don't patronize me.  

--

|                                |                            |
|"My opinions are just that."    |"Rat. BIG...rat."           |

I have nothing against Darek & his emulator, but I am sick and tired of this
argument people use for buying anything! Look, MacDonalds sells a lot of
hamburgers - that doesn't make them taste any better! FORD sells more cars than
anybody else - but they're still FORDs, they're not BMWs. Just because somebody
advertises a product and sells a whole bunch of them doesn't mean that the
product was superior - it just means a bunch of people got duped! Also, when is
the last time that anybody saw a "clone" manufacturer advertise on TV?? Advertising
may translate into sales - but it also directly translates into higher prices!
The purchaser ALWAYS pays for this in some fashion. Look people, we're all not
lemmings - so just because 10 zillion people bought a PC doesn't necessarily mean
that a PC is a superior product!

Quote:>>- Darek

Bob Malay

Hit a nerve have we? Ooooooo.   NNNNNAAAAASSSSTTTTY.

Just for the record.  I would never ever work for Microsoft.  I am actually
disappointed that Darek does.

Such large corporations/organizations kill the market place, and produce
substandard software products.  Thats something we live with day to day.

And besides that, no man, women or child desrves to have the tremendous
amounts of money bill gates has.

If I ever start a company, everyone is going to be paid by how much work
they get done, and how much we all profit from our team work will be split
equally.  If you want merit increases, you form your own project work.

Mr. Gates and others like him better hope the Japanese and Europeans don't
all of a sudden get smart and apply the same principles in manufacturing to
software design...

Or we can kiss that home grown leading edge industry good bye too.

Put it quite frankly, you couldn't pay me enough to work for Micro-Dick.

-Greg

I have to agree with Bob Malay, and add in my own personal point of
view.  I just read two different PC magazines featuring OS/2.  What
does it require for hardware?  A 386SX or DX, about 4-6MB RAM, and
at least 15MB of harddrive space.  Windows NT will require a 386
as well.  Now if Darek's computers are 286 machines, then what he says
about his computer being "obsolete" in a couple years is false, if
one relates obsolescence with not being able to run the latest and
greatest.  It's already common for PC magazine columnists to call 286
machines Labotomized... to me that equates to me thinking they view
286 machines as slipping down into the pit of obsolescence.

Jeff

    I don't now how you got your account, but if you had read the postings
in the new.users group, you would know that the posting of private e-mail
without the permission of the author is the sign of major bozohood.

--
         There are a lot of intelligent people on the net that will go
            ballistic when they are subjected to something stupid.
               -- Larry Smith on the rec.arts.manga debate

Quote:>advertise. I own 3 PCs. I know that 5 years from now they are not going
>to be obsolete.  Maybe a bit slow, but MS-DOS and Windows software will
>still be the major software then.

I don't know about anybody else, but I can say for myself:  The fact that
the DOSasaurus and Windows will still be the major software in five years
makes me want to wretch.

   -MOlin  "What?!?  DOSSHELL *isn't* supposed to be a joke"

Quote:>just because 10 zillion people bought a PC doesn't necessarily mean
>that a PC is a superior product!

You hit it right on the head!  The fact that 10 zillion people bought a
PC only goes to show that there are at least 9 zillion people who didn't
do any research before dropping their cash.  If quality is defined by
quantity, then we must assume that BETA is not as good as VHS...

Frankly, the only thing sure about DOSasaurus machines is that, if cars
needed DOS to run you'd have to stand in front of the bumper and crank it
to get it started every morning.

   -MOlin  "Don't be held back by yesterday's DOS!"

Even though you assume that 9 zillion of the users only are into DOS, you
are forgetting the fact that PC platforms come in multiple OSs.  DOS is
just the most popular of them.  I myself will be converting the OS to OS/2
2.00 shortly and later probably to the NeXT /Unix OS.
What is probably the superior machine is defined by the user's wants, not
by popularity of how many machines are out there.  I personally define
my version of superiority (not for everyone) based on price, performance,
, solving my needs, and support.  

Quote:>   (a) If I had a PC (I have to work them, and in my opinion they are
>a step down rather than up from STS)  I would want  Gemulation for the

a) Mathematica, IDL, and etc.  are some reasons why I would have a PC.

Quote:>   (b) 8088. 8086. 80186. 80286. Where are they now?  Anyone betting
>on stability in the DOS world is deluding themselves.  

b) Interesting that you consider 8088 which came out long ago like 6502s,
   and 68000 - 68020s is the same idea!

Quote:>    (c) WINDOWS will still be the system in five years?  I have a copy
>of Creative Computing from 1987 which talks about how wonderful
>windows was and will be.  It wasn't then (as we know now) and still
>isn't (as we know now again as the latest * reports pour in and

It came true didn't it?  Windows 3.x is quite nice, it has surpass support of
STs now!  There are more developers for Windows products than there are
for STs or even TTs.

Quote:>isn't (as we know now again as the latest * reports pour in and
>Microsoft promises that NT will fix them if you just wait one more
>year). Windows began as a pig for memory with lots of bugs and is now
>a bigger pig with meaner bugs.  In the meantime, a lean and mean

According to Microsoft, win 3.1 solve most of the bugs that was originally
in win 3.0.  Why do you state it contains more bugs when it's not true.
Pig for memory, you can still run windows 3.1 with 2 megs of RAM for
386 enchanced mode just like win 3.0.

Quote:>little system like GEOworks seems capable of doing everything Windows
>can do in a tenth the memory space.  I would not bet on windows
>surviving the next two years,much less becoming the standard.

Try telling this to over 9 million windows 3.0 users (just the register buyers).
With new items for windows such as IDL, and with existing items such as
Xwin (X windows for Windows 3.0), Mathematica, etc..., win 3.x may just
survive longer than most systems OS out there.

Quote:>         (d)  the Gemulator may wellmake 486s worth buying.

WRONG
Worth more than just buying the gemulator.  I like to see some more supports
from developers for the ST like we see today for pcs.  There currently
around 75,000 titles for the pc world (not including PD/SHARE).  Why
not get the 486s for multi-platform system!  By the end of the year, the
486 system should be able to run NeXT/Unix/DOS/ATARI STE/MAC/OS/2 and whatever
is out there for the 486pcs.

             ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Great keyword left by previous poster.

Bzzzz!  Last I saw anything in print (a few months back), only about 1/3
of the purchasers of Windows 3.0 actually *used* it.  The rest of the
copies are on the shelf.

I used to use Windows 3.0 at work (386 DX 25 Mhz, 4 Mb, 105 Mb HD, NEC
3D), but gave up on it - it was too much a pain in the a**.  I now run
DR DOS 6.0 under ViewMax (a pale shade of TOS GEM) using TaskMax as an
application switcher.  (This is a fairly tolerable setup and a *little*
like my ST - but I can't wait to get home at night.)

Anyhow I believe that the best way to accelerate an MS-DOS (or
compatible) machine is 32 ft/sec/sec.

(NOTE for the humor impaired - that is my *very subjective opinion*)

R.C.G.
(.sig eaten by .sig virus)

Quote:>>    (c) WINDOWS will still be the system in five years?  I have a copy
>>of Creative Computing from 1987 which talks about how wonderful
>>windows was and will be.  It wasn't then (as we know now) and still
>>isn't (as we know now again as the latest * reports pour in and
>It came true didn't it?  Windows 3.x is quite nice, it has surpass support of
>STs now!  There are more developers for Windows products than there are
>for STs or even TTs.

Again!!! The 'ol MORE IS BETTER argument!!!!

Quote:>Try telling this to over 9 million windows 3.0 users (just the register buyers).
>With new items for windows such as IDL, and with existing items such as
>Xwin (X windows for Windows 3.0), Mathematica, etc..., win 3.x may just
>survive longer than most systems OS out there.

MORE IS BETTER! MORE IS BETTER!

Quote:>WRONG
>Worth more than just buying the gemulator.  I like to see some more supports
>from developers for the ST like we see today for pcs.  There currently
>around 75,000 titles for the pc world (not including PD/SHARE).  Why
>not get the 486s for multi-platform system!  By the end of the year, the
>486 system should be able to run NeXT/Unix/DOS/ATARI STE/MAC/OS/2 and whatever
>is out there for the 486pcs.

Look - just because 18 quadrillion people buy Menudo records doesn't necessarily
equate to musical genius! STOP using this argument. Its lame! Almost every PC
junkie uses this argument as a claim that the machine is better - its not better
its just more popular!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob Malay

And why not mention my statement as support for win 3.x, it was just to
state that there are already supporters for it.

Quote:

>>Try telling this to over 9 million windows 3.0 users (just the register buyers).
>>With new items for windows such as IDL, and with existing items such as
>>Xwin (X windows for Windows 3.0), Mathematica, etc..., win 3.x may just
>>survive longer than most systems OS out there.

>MORE IS BETTER! MORE IS BETTER!

MORE IS MORE isn't it?

Quote:>>WRONG
>>Worth more than just buying the gemulator.  I like to see some more supports
>>from developers for the ST like we see today for pcs.  There currently
>>around 75,000 titles for the pc world (not including PD/SHARE).  Why
>>not get the 486s for multi-platform system!  By the end of the year, the
>>486 system should be able to run NeXT/Unix/DOS/ATARI STE/MAC/OS/2 and whatever
>>is out there for the 486pcs.

>Look - just because 18 quadrillion people buy Menudo records doesn't necessarily
>equate to musical genius! STOP using this argument. Its lame! Almost every PC
>junkie uses this argument as a claim that the machine is better - its not better
>its just more popular!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>Bob Malay

I wonder who is the lamer here, I never stated that the PC is better, personallymany other far superior machines would be better.  What I did pointed out
is that from the original posted message that the gemulator is not only
reason to go buy a 486.  LAME.